Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
fanta

Biggest flop in college

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, npope said:

You folks are defining the "success" or "flop" of a young man's life solely in terms of his success on the mat. I ask whether it is possible that knowing, fewer than a mere handful of young people will ever compete beyond high school, much less at the DI level, that the goals for the young people is something other that success at the collegiate level? Did you know that less than 60% of the adult population ever completes a college degree? Geeezz, maybe, just maybe, the high school athletic experience is an end unto itself. Maybe it teaches its lessons without expectation of a "next" level. Maybe those lessons have to do with doing one's very best at whatever their next step may be in life. I think all of the posters debating whether a given wrestler met athletic expectations at the "next level" are myopic and misguided; presuming that a given kid's entire life's trajectory is predicated on their success on the mat, at whatever level. The point is, a lot of kids aren't cut out for college and going to college just for wrestling is often an ill-fated journey. Very successful high school wrestlers go to college just for wrestling and aren't prepared for the academic rigor; they shouldn't be there....despite their wrestling ability. 

Athletics are included in the K-12 public school system because it is intended to teach broader values, not simply athletic success. Discipline; tenacity; comradery; etc. Those values may have been successfully instilled whether the kid ever goes to college; the "lesson" may have been already learned - any endeavor in college may be suplurfluous. So get your heads out of your butt and realize that a given school's education program might be about more than being an NCAA champ.

I can't believe this thread has reached five pages.

Yes because that’s what the thread is about. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I never meant them as kids because they were under 18 but more as you said: Younger age than myself.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.

Why are you so triggered this morning?  Did I forget to get you your coffee within an acceptable time frame?

Would you agree or disagree to using injury as a determining factor as well?

Fair.

On the triggered topic, were you triggered enough to suggest that I was triggered?  I was merely commenting on a very crude and basic theme that we are now seeing where the notion of selective coddling is rampant.  

When a teen phenom BB player leaves school early to make his millions, only to not have the overhyped success that everyone thought he should have... What happens?  ESPN is writing articles on how he flopped.  Same goes with a recent article on the "Top 10 Quarterback Flops" in NFL history. Ryan Leaf is their archetype.  Now.  What's the difference?  One is 24-25 in the NFL and one is 22 or 23 as a college senior?  They're both men is all I was suggesting. 

Injury, of course, plays a huge role in how ones career may end up.  

The bigger debate should be around whether or not sports fans, in general, should focus on the flop concept, regardless of sport.  

My gut tells me that it's built into the psychology of most people, as they look back at the high school yearbook only to see that the kid voted "most likely to succeed" shows up at the 20th reunion late because his job at Burger King had him do some overtime cause a kid puked in the bathroom, while everyone expected him to show up with a Porsche and a trophy wife.  

Deny it all you want, but I think a lot of this curiosity stems from the same basic, remedial, inherent interest most people (not all) have.

Good fun...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you guys make of the Manvilles? Here's a family that has been Roller-like in producing school-boy stars. Then, they slowly lose their edge after a series of "best-for-mine" transfers.

EDIT: Could it be as simple as the kids started to grow? Did they max out their technique/ conditioning potentials before other 12-14 year-olds but didn't have a high enough ceiling athletically?

Edited by jackwebster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jackwebster said:

What do you guys make of the Manvilles? Here's a family that has been Roller-like in producing school-boy stars. Then, they slowly lose their edge after a series of "best-for-mine" transfers.

EDIT: Could it be as simple as the kids started to grow? Did they max out their technique/ conditioning potentials before other 12-14 year-olds but didn't have a high enough ceiling athletically?

The Manvilles are definitely interesting. Mason decided to focus on greco for some reason, despite being a cadet world champ in freestyle. He made one team, but hasn't been that close since and obviously hasn't done anything in folkstyle either. It's hard to know what he could have been if he didn't focus on greco, but guys had started to catch him late in high school (Hidlay, Marinelli). 

Carson is another case that's impossible to judge. Looked like a hammer as a freshman before falling completely off the map for a couple years. Turned out he had a serious and bizarre injury that almost cost him his arm. Came back 30 lbs heavier and hasn't looked the same. Went from a top 5 p4p recruit to not even on the big board. It's hard to know what his trajectory would have been without the injury and lay off. Definitely awesome to see him back out there though.

There's another one coming up now that will be interesting to watch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

 Turned out he had a serious and bizarre injury that almost cost him his arm. 

This might be way off, but what happened sounded like it could have been caused by overtraining, something along the lines of rhabdo.

Edited by jackwebster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, treep2000 said:

I think we all need to be very clear in that these individuals that we are referencing; we are referencing based on their performance first as "kids", but how they "flopped" as an "adult".  These are men when they get to college.  Calling them kids is a nice, nostalgic way to reference those that are younger than us, but the reality is, once they turn 18, they are no different than the MEN that are fighting overseas, taking bullets for their brethren.  These are men, and no longer "kids".  

If we "feel" that they are still "kids", then that opens the door to a whole bunch of other topics and conversations, not worth going into (drinking age, combat age, neurological age, etc.).  I find it disingenuous that the moral equivalency fails and the usage of the term "men" vs. "kids" only comes into play when it's potentially negative (i.e. "they're just kids still") vs. positive (i.e. Kyle Snyder is the MAN for winning his World Championships while 18/19).  

Let's all agree that if they're 18+, they're men, by legal definition, and treat them as such.  The selective "coddling" ought to stop.  

I'm sorry if someone else already stated this, while treep's post is well-intended, this post is FAR too simplistic.

Physical and athletic attributes aside, 18 is an arbitrary number. That age only recognizes the end of the legal requirement for Americans to attend some form of formal educational system, but also one in which young Americans can serve in the military/DHS without the need for parental consent.

Most of us adults here who are older than the age of 40 years know that boys/young men rarely live up to the expectations of adulthood (which stage of adulthood are we talking about here?) until they are well into their 20s. They continue to require a lot of guidance at those critical ages to move them along to being something resembling the adults many here expect them to be at 18, as if that changes like flipping a switch. You can call that coddling, if you wish, but that would be ignore basic biology and brain development.

As to the military reference, as someone who served on active duty from the ages of 18 to 22 years old, expecting those young people to be adults is one thing. The reality is that most are still very much children whose brains continue to develop and change for years to come.

At one point treep states, "...that opens the door to a whole bunch of other topics and conversations, not worth going into (drinking age, combat age, neurological age, etc.)", but brain development and maturity are absolutely worth the discussion, especially when you're talking about the expectations of being an adult placed on young people by society.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, jp157 said:

I literally know people who were involved and know people who live and coach in the area. I kept what I said factual. There’s plenty of other things I’ve heard that falls under what you’re talking about. 
 

Like I said. I know people who think highly of Cozart and Brandon and visa versa. The one thing they agreed on was why Brandon kids never even came close to “wrestling” expectations in college or above. Disagree if you want. I stated my view on the wrestling aspect 

 

I’ll even say. As far as the powerhouse programs go.. I’ve not ever really heard anything bad about Brandon grads as people. Vs. other programs where I’ve heard and seen the opposite. 
 

I don’t get why people are taking discussion of wrestling results as an attack on character 

Fair enough jp...then you sir are one of the VERY few on here that actually have first hand knowledge of something when commenting.  LOL

Like Tampa said...interesting how the people you know have a different perspective than what he had.  But it is just like what we see all the time today...multiple people can read the same freaking scientific study and come to multiple different conclusions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, jp157 said:

I put much much much more blame on the parents and the system that produced the kids.. then the kids themselves….

But honestly with the Brandon kids. Most of them can be objectively called busts. I’m pretty sure Grajales is the only one who even AA’d
 

 

I do believe that Franklin Gomez was a Brandon kid. Multi X AA and NC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Staying in Florida.....What happened to Fox Baldwin? My question is not rhetorical, but Fox had a great HS career and then I go so busy with my own life that I lost touch with a lot of the upcoming HS kids.

I would not consider these kids mentioned as "flops". Sure they may not have gone on to win a bunch of NCAA titles or even a single Midlands title. Yeah my Fantasy Wrestling season might have gone down the tubes, but oh well. They were fun to watch competing and fun for me to "predict" where they might go to college, and how they fit into the roster of the school that they did actually commit to. I would love to have seen them come out of HS and continue to reap havoc at the college level. I also wanted to see some more parity in college wrestling.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, TexRef said:

Staying in Florida.....What happened to Fox Baldwin? My question is not rhetorical, but Fox had a great HS career and then I go so busy with my own life that I lost touch with a lot of the upcoming HS kids.

I would not consider these kids mentioned as "flops". Sure they may not have gone on to win a bunch of NCAA titles or even a single Midlands title. Yeah my Fantasy Wrestling season might have gone down the tubes, but oh well. They were fun to watch competing and fun for me to "predict" where they might go to college, and how they fit into the roster of the school that they did actually commit to. I would love to have seen them come out of HS and continue to reap havoc at the college level. I also wanted to see some more parity in college wrestling.   

Fox had some personal issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I almost hate to mention this as many will consider this a dig, which it is not.  Kenny Cox.  Kenny was almost untouchable in high school both in Oregon and nationally.  Went to the University of Oregon and never really had the success that most thought he would.

Kenny was a great man, and I hold him in high regard.  Kenny sadly passed in 2009 to a respiratory illness, his obituary is here: https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/registerguard/obituary.aspx?n=kenneth-george-cox&pid=131942803

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/15/2017 at 5:47 PM, Husker_Du said:

 

Snyder was unanimous #1. beyond that, check the # of 3 and 4xers from PA and other states. 

 

many haven't been as good as Chance has on SR level already, and he still has 2 years of eligibility. 

 

so your picking him is either a product of a personal bias, or you're not smart. maybe both.

how'd this work out for ya?

3rd and 4th to end career. not too shabby

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Tofurky said:

I'm sorry if someone else already stated this, while treep's post is well-intended, this post is FAR too simplistic.

Physical and athletic attributes aside, 18 is an arbitrary number. That age only recognizes the end of the legal requirement for Americans to attend some form of formal educational system, but also one in which young Americans can serve in the military/DHS without the need for parental consent.

Most of us adults here who are older than the age of 40 years know that boys/young men rarely live up to the expectations of adulthood (which stage of adulthood are we talking about here?) until they are well into their 20s. They continue to require a lot of guidance at those critical ages to move them along to being something resembling the adults many here expect them to be at 18, as if that changes like flipping a switch. You can call that coddling, if you wish, but that would be ignore basic biology and brain development.

As to the military reference, as someone who served on active duty from the ages of 18 to 22 years old, expecting those young people to be adults is one thing. The reality is that most are still very much children whose brains continue to develop and change for years to come.

At one point treep states, "...that opens the door to a whole bunch of other topics and conversations, not worth going into (drinking age, combat age, neurological age, etc.)", but brain development and maturity are absolutely worth the discussion, especially when you're talking about the expectations of being an adult placed on young people by society.

Great points.  The conversation ought to broaden, to your point, to take into consideration all of the points you referenced.  I suppose, in my follow up comment, that I ended up clarifying the "picking and choosing" of viewing those in their 18-22 range as being "kids" for certain topics, and "men" for other topics.  It's "agenda driven" per se.  They're kids when one feels that they need some sort of protection, and they're "men" under other conditions.  I actually tend to agree that they youngun's are still "kids".  I've been there.  I'll admit heartily that I considered myself then to still be "a kid", and looking back, can say with 100% certainty, that I was still a "kid".  :-)  Neurological development, world experience, physiological development, etc. doesn't stop for most for quite some time after that age period.  Myself included.  I wrestled, lifted, worked out just as hard as anyone, but for me, my body didn't really "blossom" until I was in my mid-20's.  Same goes for my neurological/intellectual/worldview development.  I'd have to argue that those elements are endless (unless of course, some disease or injury precludes it).  We are all more well versed on <insert a topic of interest> now than we were 365 days ago, and so on.  

it's an intriguing topic, but I will stand my ground on one thing.  Evaluating if a highly ranked recruit "pans out" or "flops" is a natural tendency for all of us, across many sports, and also across intellectual endeavors.  There are certain expectations for a multi-time Fargo Champ vs. a 1-time 5th place at state guy.  Instance of where they "flip the script" is an interesting discussion, and yes, it may be caveated due to injury or what not, but an interesting topic nonetheless.  It's not an attack on character of the man himself, but rather, a descriptive reflection on that one element that defines them.  I know many former wrestlers that have zero accolades, but kick butt in "life", just like I know many wrestlers that were exceptional talents that end up "failing" at life, and then of course, everything in between.  

No one should feel so triggered react so negatively to some of the comments made on the board, but rather, just realize that it's a natural tendency to criticize (not in a negative way) and dissect one's career.  

There are simply too many observations and incidences of this throughout all sports that its undeniable.  To suggest that we ought not do so is more philosophical.  What I'm suggesting is just a commentary on general human behavior. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, dman115 said:

Fair enough jp...then you sir are one of the VERY few on here that actually have first hand knowledge of something when commenting.  LOL

Like Tampa said...interesting how the people you know have a different perspective than what he had.  But it is just like what we see all the time today...multiple people can read the same freaking scientific study and come to multiple different conclusions.

That is also why I kept it about the things I knew about the way the program was set up and how training was done. And my opinion about how that I directly contributed to kids from Brandon not meeting expectations in college based off their high school results. Not about anything personal.

When it comes to powerhouse hs programs. I’ve seen and heard plenty of the personal type stuff you’re referring. Both true and untrue and you are right about this not being place for them. 
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While not unsuccessful some guys had an aura in high school that they didn't exactly continue to have during college.

Like the Altons and Peppelmans. 

I was also wondering about what happened to Mac Bailey. I don't know what age these guys were but here's a video of him beating a future NCAA champ fairly badly: https://www.flowrestling.org/video/5090579-mac-bailey-oak-park-v-drake-houdashelt-fort-zumwalt-west

Another guy Houdashelt faced who I thought would have more success in college (outside of the finals appearance) was Josh Kindig. 

What happened to these any guys since? No senior level tournaments for Houdashelt or Kindig?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not the fastest on this forum or any for that matter, but I am surprised nobody has mentioned Justin Mejia. 

 

Justin Mejia from California, is a 4X Cali State Champ and went back and forth on committing from Iowa to Illinois or the other way around shoot I don't remember. I don't think he ever wrestled a single match for a Big 10 school. Then he ends up at Fresno State and it appeared to be a good fit for both, but he wasn't in the line up on a consistent basis. He then transferred to Clackamas Community College. He is now at his 4th school and transferred from Fresno because he didn't feel like he would be able to grow and improve there.

A very interesting take on his part. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From Iowa I could add Matt Fields. He was just a hammer in high school and #1 in the nation for a good amount of time at heavyweight winning a couple Fargo titles. He came to Iowa and was only a one time AA, and I believe had a couple season ending injuries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...