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Biggest flop in college

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On 6/14/2021 at 7:21 PM, npope said:

You folks are defining the "success" or "flop" of a young man's life solely in terms of his success on the mat. I ask whether it is possible that knowing, fewer than a mere handful of young people will ever compete beyond high school, much less at the DI level, that the goals for the young people is something other that success at the collegiate level? Did you know that less than 60% of the adult population ever completes a college degree? Geeezz, maybe, just maybe, the high school athletic experience is an end unto itself. Maybe it teaches its lessons without expectation of a "next" level. Maybe those lessons have to do with doing one's very best at whatever their next step may be in life. I think all of the posters debating whether a given wrestler met athletic expectations at the "next level" are myopic and misguided; presuming that a given kid's entire life's trajectory is predicated on their success on the mat, at whatever level. The point is, a lot of kids aren't cut out for college and going to college just for wrestling is often an ill-fated journey. Very successful high school wrestlers go to college just for wrestling and aren't prepared for the academic rigor; they shouldn't be there....despite their wrestling ability. 

Athletics are included in the K-12 public school system because it is intended to teach broader values, not simply athletic success. Discipline; tenacity; comradery; etc. Those values may have been successfully instilled whether the kid ever goes to college; the "lesson" may have been already learned - any endeavor in college may be suplurfluous. So get your heads out of your butt and realize that a given school's education program might be about more than being an NCAA champ.

I can't believe this thread has reached five pages.

No one is doing that.  You are reading it in.  The subtext is clearly - wrestling career. I bet the preponderance of these guys are excellent professionals and stand up human beings. 

Take down that soapbox :) 

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2 hours ago, TFBJR said:

No one is doing that.  You are reading it in.  The subtext is clearly - wrestling career. I bet the preponderance of these guys are excellent professionals and stand up human beings. 

Take down that soapbox :) 

Some on here were suggesting that Brandon was doing its wrestlers a disservice in that it "burned them out" before they got to college, as if college wrestling is some sort of obvious destination. My point is that wrestling at the K-12 level is an experience unto itself - stopping after the K-12 experience is perfectly fine - no matter the abilities of a kid. Talented wrestlers who go on to college to simply wrestle and who really aren't cut out for college, is a disservice to the kid. Accusations of Brandon "burning out" its kids is a flawed assumption.

Now - I will get off my soap box and allow you to step back up on it.

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4 hours ago, npope said:

Some on here were suggesting that Brandon was doing its wrestlers a disservice in that it "burned them out" before they got to college, as if college wrestling is some sort of obvious destination. My point is that wrestling at the K-12 level is an experience unto itself - stopping after the K-12 experience is perfectly fine - no matter the abilities of a kid. Talented wrestlers who go on to college to simply wrestle and who really aren't cut out for college, is a disservice to the kid. Accusations of Brandon "burning out" its kids is a flawed assumption.

Now - I will get off my soap box and allow you to step back up on it.

When national level coaches have told me their opinion. It becomes at minimum.. a less flawed assumption.

The real issue with your little soapbox is you’re deliberately forgetting a key factor when discussing “flops”… the $$$… 

Pretty much every recruit discussed was given money by the team they joined to produce results. They were given more money than the average recruit to produce results..

There is a reason that shows about draft busts or “flops” talk about FIRST round draft picks.. the same logic applies here. 
 

and if you don’t understand the business aspect of DI.. I’m not going to fix your naïveté  here

 

and people are so deliberately obtuse about the development system we have in place. Defend it if you want but stop being deliberately ignorant about the flaws it has.. including using up talent too young 

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39 minutes ago, Lunaticfringe said:

If anything I would say it speaks to how greatRuss Cozart is of a coach that he maximizes the kids abilities in high school

That’s fine to say. Just don’t complain about college and international results. 
 

It’s actually why I don’t think switching to freestyle would be as impactful as some think. It won’t matter if we continue using up our athletes best years 9/10 or more. 
 

I’m perfectly aware people are okay with this. Especially youth coaches who want to be taken as seriously as hs and college. That’s not my issue. My issue is people not being honest about how many athletes it’s using up for age group tournaments 

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1 hour ago, Lunaticfringe said:

If anything I would say it speaks to how greatRuss Cozart is of a coach that he maximizes the kids abilities in high school

I was going to say I am skeptical  a successful HS coach wouldn't put competing at a higher level at the top of their list of priorities. Then I thought back to my kids HS  coaches and realized that was an afterthought for them.  At best. 

 

 

 

Edited by Plasmodium

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13 hours ago, jp157 said:

When national level coaches have told me their opinion. It becomes at minimum.. a less flawed assumption.

The real issue with your little soapbox is you’re deliberately forgetting a key factor when discussing “flops”… the $$$… 

Pretty much every recruit discussed was given money by the team they joined to produce results. They were given more money than the average recruit to produce results..

There is a reason that shows about draft busts or “flops” talk about FIRST round draft picks.. the same logic applies here. 
 

and if you don’t understand the business aspect of DI.. I’m not going to fix your naïveté  here

 

and people are so deliberately obtuse about the development system we have in place. Defend it if you want but stop being deliberately ignorant about the flaws it has.. including using up talent too young 

I would like to take a moment to thank you for helping me understand the structure and purpose of the educational system here in the US. You are providing a great service to many.

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Re HEW:

Burning out as an athlete after 14 years and burning out as a coach after (believe it or not) 14 years, I'm getting the itch again. This time I want to coach little league. Little league coaching is attractive to megalomaniacs who fantasize of building champions from scratch. It's like, "If only I didn't have to break bad habits, deal with the mind warping effects of past successes and failures, outrun the eligibility clock, etc " 

It IS a fantasy and probably a poisonous one, i.e. living vicariously through elementary/middle schoolers. But, I have thought about how I would do it differently: more attention to kids' stress levels, more play, more slow rolls, more time developing athletic movements, more work with nutrition, more work with injury prevention and recovery, fewer competitions, fewer weigh-ins, less attention to weight classes in the practice room and in competition, more one-on-one technique, etc. Don't tell anybody bc it's embarrassing, but I might even have a few word docs detailing "a program." But, again, it's a potentially dangerous fantasy. 

Anyway, the one strategy that I'm really interested in is "chasing competition," i.e. identify the wrestler you want to beat and chase him around until you do. I've heard this is what cattle-prod Kolat and honeymooners Ferrari did. So, it's been done before by the looniest of the looney. Yeah, I want to limit competitions to the ones where you get a chance to hunt down kids you want to beat. 

This is why I won't be coaching again.

Edited by jackwebster

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On 6/18/2021 at 5:06 AM, Plasmodium said:

Tyrell Fortune was fantastic in HS.  Won Fargo and more.  He went to Grand Canyon but not sure he ever wrestled a match for them.  He is doing very well now in MMA.

He won 2 JUCO titles for Clackamas and then won a D2 title at GC. He then went on to win the University Worlds (U23s) spot over Tony Nelson. He might have won universities too but I'm not sure on that. He beat Nelson a few times while he was still one of the top US heavyweights. He was even close to winning a world team spot but fell to Dlagnev in the finals twice. Wouldn't say this was a flop in any way. He just left to go on to MMA before his prime.

2013 WTT:

Saturday Challenge - MFS 120 KG
1st Place - Tyrell Fortune of TMWC/GCU
2nd Place - Zach Rey of Unattached
3rd Place - Nick Gwiazdowski of NYAC
4th Place - Tony Nelson of Minnesota Storm
1st Place Match
1st Place Match - Tyrell Fortune (TMWC/GCU) won by decision over Zach Rey (Unattached) (Dec 2-0)
3rd Place Match
3rd Place Match - Nick Gwiazdowski (NYAC) won by decision over Tony Nelson (Minnesota Storm) (Dec 6-4)

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The truth is, the DI wrestling lifestyle is NOT for everyone. A lot of the guys listed here had the ability to be highly successful in DI if it were solely about wrestling. But, the time you have to dedicate to school and wrestling, while basically being on your own for the 1st Time in your entire life is DAUNTING. 
 

Like Gable said, you only have the time to be successful at 2 of these three things: school, wrestling and partying. Pick 2. 
 

The truth is, you BARELY have the time for school and wrestling. You have to be so regimented and dedicated, it can get debilitating very fast. A few bad practices or a couple subpar test scores can quickly throw you into a downward spiral. 
 

Now, I do like this topic still, because, without a real pro Avenue, DI wrestling essentially is the pro level for folkstyle wrestling. As such, it is much like seeing a top draft pick not live up to expectations when you see top recruits not doing it. I just don’t see it in any negative light for the wrestler recruits as they aren’t moving into a position for millions of dollars while their sole focus can be on their craft. They instead are bombarded with a slew of basically never ending tasks for usually less than what it costs to achieve them!

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5 hours ago, Relentless125 said:

He won 2 JUCO titles for Clackamas and then won a D2 title at GC. He then went on to win the University Worlds (U23s) spot over Tony Nelson. He might have won universities too but I'm not sure on that. He beat Nelson a few times while he was still one of the top US heavyweights. He was even close to winning a world team spot but fell to Dlagnev in the finals twice. Wouldn't say this was a flop in any way. He just left to go on to MMA before his prime.

2013 WTT:

Saturday Challenge - MFS 120 KG
1st Place - Tyrell Fortune of TMWC/GCU
2nd Place - Zach Rey of Unattached
3rd Place - Nick Gwiazdowski of NYAC
4th Place - Tony Nelson of Minnesota Storm
1st Place Match
1st Place Match - Tyrell Fortune (TMWC/GCU) won by decision over Zach Rey (Unattached) (Dec 2-0)
3rd Place Match
3rd Place Match - Nick Gwiazdowski (NYAC) won by decision over Tony Nelson (Minnesota Storm) (Dec 6-4)

Thanks.  He did alot more than i thought he did! 

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5 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Thanks.  He did alot more than i thought he did! 

He's probably the most successful former wrestler in MMA right now since Cormier retired. I actually thought he'd be further along by now. He was a lot more successful than Curtis Blaydes who is probably the top heavyweight wrestler in the UFC.

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58 minutes ago, Relentless125 said:

He's probably the most successful former wrestler in MMA right now since Cormier retired.

He’s done well, but that statements a stretching considering some of the former wrestlers currently near the top of the UFC.  Bellators not a joke, but the competition is not quite as deep.  

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2 hours ago, MadMardigain said:

He’s done well, but that statements a stretching considering some of the former wrestlers currently near the top of the UFC.  Bellators not a joke, but the competition is not quite as deep.  

I meant to say the most successful former heavyweight* wrestler. Unless I'm forgetting someone or there's a foreign wrestler I didn't know about I think that would be accurate.

I agree about Bellator. There appears to be a huge drop-off for the heavyweight division when compared to the UFC. 

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