Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
wrestle09

attendance at national duals

Recommended Posts

I wonder if the 10am start time on a Sunday had anything to do with low attendance at Missouri.

*** They were trying to attract fans from the two-day state HS tournament held in the same arena the last two days. It didn't work.

Being from the EIWA, I could have told them that, as it hasn't worked for us in NJ or PA either. JJH

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To put it in perspective, 1300 at Oregon St is said to be their second largest crowd in nearly ten years.

Another source said about 1500 at Kent St.

 

I would be disappointed if Minny doesn't draw at least 4,000-5,000 for each session. JJH

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and outside of PSU and Iowa home meets, four of the most attended events of this year ...

 

 

I sent this from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

 

 

 

Are you being sarcastic? 2000 fans at cornell seems ok...700 bleak.. others??

So what is your point??

 

 

 

 

 

My point or Jason's point? If you are referring to me I think my question is fairly clear and opinion is clear. But if it is directed to Jason then I would concur with you Lord that I would also like to know what Jason's point is?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Point is simply this: Are we are mocking four wrestling events that drew better than the lion's share of college wrestling events in this country -- with only one of them having a top-five team in attendance?

 

Is it a home run? No. But I think it could be viewed more favorably than having one event in an area already known for its attendance. How many of the fans who did show up could have the ability to see this if the national duals were still in Cedar Falls?

 

Trying to be positive, at least to some degree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) I believe there should be a National Duals with the top 16 teams entering 2) It should be held on 1 weekend (far enough from NCAAs to encourage participation and decreased forfeits) 3) By no means should it replace the NCAAs as the "team champions" if only 1 NCAA championship is allowed 4) Marketing is the key!!!!!(NWCA all star classic this year at Amer univ. SOLD OUT) this was great for the sportI realize there was a marquee matchup, but good marketing could come up with a story line for NCAA dual championships. Other comments...There is a lot of excitement for NCAAs not only because of individual match ups but also to determine the "team champion". There is no "this team got lucky" in winning NCAAs. There certainly is a lot of flip flopping that occurs in a dual meet. (all about the matchups)..Not that there is anything wrong with that. I think the arguing, debate/discussion after the Duals championships can create an even more "build up" toward the NCAAs at the end of the year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was one of the 700 in attendance at the Mizzou Regional.

 

Living 100 miles from Columbia doesn't permit me to attend many duals. However, with this event being National Duals, I decided to make the journey, despite the 10 AM start.

 

Although steep, I didn't mind the $15 addmission as I mistakingly ASSUMED that all the coaches would put out their best wrestlers against other teams in an attempt to advance to next weekend. Therefore, I would get to see multiple matchups of Ranked wrestlers. Winning duals to advance was the purpose of this event, or so I thought. I really believed that this event would be DIFFERENT than the many other duals I have attended where forfeits or backups were used in a game on "Seedmanship".

 

I WAS WRONG. What a disappointment !!

 

In the 1st place dual, down only by a score of 4-0, Purdue elects to not wrestle #16 Quiroga against #5 McCormick at 133#. They forfeit. If that bad wasn't enough, Purdue then decided to also not wrestle #13 Lopouchanski against #15 Houdashelt at 149#. What a sham.

 

What purpose did these moves serve ? How is Purdue going to win the dual and advance to next weekend with this madness ? I really don't understand the logic behind these moves. And before someone claims injury, I saw both Purdue wrestlers in the dual against Wyoming and there was no sign of any problems for either wrestler.

 

With team aspects aside, what benefit did this provide to Quiroga or Lopouch ? Does this enhance their ability to get an NCAA seed by dodging ranked wrestlers ? It does hurt the Mizzou wrestlers who were denied an opportunity to get quality matches and make a stronger case for NCAA seeding.

 

More importantly, the 700 fans that were in attendance were denied the opportunity to witness the types of matches that prompted them to pay $15 and be there in the first place.

 

After Purdue sent a replacement out for Lopouchanski, a fan clearly and loudly yelled "what an embarrasment, why aren't you putting out your best wrestlers". Everyone in attendance including the Purdue coaches heard it. The Purdue coaches just laughed it up like they thought the statement was ridiculous. This is precisely the attitudes and mindsets that are killing attendance and in so doing, killing the very survival of our sport.

 

I will not attend another Regional. I suspect I am not the only attendee of this opinion.

 

And we wonder why our sport is "dying on the vine" ???????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Socobuw - I am here.

 

The reported attendance for the first round regionals was over 1,600 and did not include a single top drawing program hosting to skew the figures. Yes, I believe the NCAA brand will raise attendance 300 people for the first round and I also believe that a change in format would allow more top drawing programs to host driving attendance and exposure in more regions of the country.

 

The NWCA championships are a psuedo championship, we all know that. How well does Pitt Basketball draw at home? Well, when playing in a first round psuedo championship, the College Basketball Invitational Tournament, they drew 1,400 fans to watch them beat Wofford. So, 75 percent of the NWCA regionals outdrew the CBI first round game with a Big East program.

 

The reality is that the brand matters. There is a resion the US Open doesn't draw but the Olympic Trials do. It is the same reason the world campionships don't draw as well as the Olympics. People identify with the NCAA and will want to see an NCAA Championship contest which will draw more peoplethan an NWCA event and allowing for individual duals rather than dual festivals it will expand the footprint of our sport.

 

SHOW-Me is right. Many people don't like to go to duals because you don't know what you'll get. Basically the only teams that don't pull things are the top four teams and that is because they have pride on the line. But for every other program it is about the individuals. It is not about the team results during the season but rather about the individual results in March. I have watched as teams have struggled to find balance between focusing on team success and ensuring that individuals got the best seed and best chance to find success in march. The reality is that there isn't enough emphasis on the team right now and the season as a whole doesn't have enough significance outside of March. The reason football is so popular is that each contest is vital to post season success. In wrestling you can literally go winless in duals and have a top 10 team.

 

Regional dual attendance was not great but it was far from being bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the problem is your projections are for individual home sites and not regionals. the first two rounds drew 6,300 fans. you have it at 15,200 and 30,200 for attendance at the first two rounds. the format you are proposing isn't the format that was proposed this summer and you are making numbers up to try to show something that is not there. i will give you that psu and iowa weren't involved in the second round but even their drawing power leaves you way short.

 

in a slightly different format you expect to go from 6,300 to 45,400

and for the last three rounds you expect to get another 60,000

 

the proposal from this summer didn't follow your format and it would be a tough sell to have so many different sites for traveling. nothing suggests your numbers are anywhere close except that the host program has drawn a crowd that size at some point in the past few years. you neglect the fact that the crowds were drawn by big name teams, local rivals with a lot of local kids participating, or they paired the dual up with other events as chattanooga did this fall for the iowa dual. the events that they promote for large crowds are often strategically placed on the calendar to avoid conflicts with other events in the wrestling community. the dual championship falls at the absolute worst time for everyone else involved in the sport. 100,000 fans attending 23 duals would be great, but you are spinning the numbers way too optimistically.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"

I didn’t get an official number. We had about 2,300

 

Aaron Chimenti

Athletic Communications

Contact for Football & Wrestling

Kent State Universitywdanforth

Bronze Member

 

That is a generous number. No way. Maybe 1,500.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
the problem is your projections are for individual home sites and not regionals. the first two rounds drew 6,300 fans. you have it at 15,200 and 30,200 for attendance at the first two rounds. the format you are proposing isn't the format that was proposed this summer and you are making numbers up to try to show something that is not there. i will give you that psu and iowa weren't involved in the second round but even their drawing power leaves you way short.

 

in a slightly different format you expect to go from 6,300 to 45,400

and for the last three rounds you expect to get another 60,000

 

the proposal from this summer didn't follow your format and it would be a tough sell to have so many different sites for traveling. nothing suggests your numbers are anywhere close except that the host program has drawn a crowd that size at some point in the past few years. you neglect the fact that the crowds were drawn by big name teams, local rivals with a lot of local kids participating, or they paired the dual up with other events as chattanooga did this fall for the iowa dual. the events that they promote for large crowds are often strategically placed on the calendar to avoid conflicts with other events in the wrestling community. the dual championship falls at the absolute worst time for everyone else involved in the sport. 100,000 fans attending 23 duals would be great, but you are spinning the numbers way too optimistically.

 

Individual home sites draw better than dual festivals, as I have have stated. This is because most event venues draw on the 'local' fans and there are very few fans that are willing to travel extended distances for these events. As a result, if you have four teams at a location, you are only seeing the fans in the region of the home team. Yes, there are greater incentives to turnout to Kent when Oklahoma State is in town but to conclude that there was a sea of fans that flew in from Stillwater is wrong.

 

I realize this summer's proposal did not include my format. That was one of the biggest issues the coaches had with it was that it only allowed for 16 teams when most coaches agreed that 24 was the best number. There were a lot of programs that felt they could get into the top 24 semi-regularly but that limiting it to the top 16 would only result in the same teams getting in each year.

 

I am not overly optimistic. The model has been used in other NCAA sports and successful. There is no issue with last minute scheduling and promoting for second round contest because the top 8 seeds that got byes will, in all likelyhood be hosting second round so they will be able to promote well in advance, the only question is who will they host.

 

I am not, at all, overly optimistic about this plan. There were issues with it but to conclude that because it didn't go through that the majority of coaches do not support making the change to duals is wrong. It is also wrong to assume that it is not feasible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So we're looking at such a small window of history to determine what is and isn't a crowd. How long did it take the NCAA championships to sell out?

 

I'm sure the NFL-AFL merger people were saying "See, this 'Super Bowl' isn't worth the time, the game didn't even sell out"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can we at least agree that the movement for using this event to determine the NCAA champs at the expense of the greatest wrestling tournament in the world is a bad idea?

 

 

..it's a terrible idea!

 

Just like the forward pass...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your comparisons just don't work in this discussion and you know it. This isn't College BB and it isn't NFL. There is no real parity in this sport, and there may not ever be. Outside of 4 or 5 teams there isn't a big draw. You are including numbers that those teams would draw anyway if they had a home dual against any team.

 

PSU is going to be there I heard next season, has everyone else agreed to be involved or is that to be determined later?

 

What will it take in order to leave the current system in March alone? I fear that if this tournament is successful you will argue that this is the way we need to go, make this the Championship. I fear that if the tournament isn't successful you will argue that it's because you need the branding so make this the Championship.

 

The fft are going to be an issue, and even in regular season duals are a nuisance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you push to get the NCAA to sponsor both tournaments and if you can't get that let it be. I really think people are underestimating how much the team race brings to the table at the NCAA tournament, and how great that makes it. My friends and I are already planning on the 2014 tournament. I have a hunch if they take the team race away from the mix, that we would not be planning that for out and many would not even go. It would turn into a little better version of the US Open. I know very few if any would be planning a year+ out for a dual tournament that may not have their team at it.

 

Maybe you have hopes that your favorite team will contend for a title, but if even if they don't at least you have a good idea that a few of the wrestlers will represent. This will never be the case in a dual tourney.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think you push to get the NCAA to sponsor both tournaments and if you can't get that let it be. I really think people are underestimating how much the team race brings to the table at the NCAA tournament, and how great that makes it. My friends and I are already planning on the 2014 tournament. I have a hunch if they take the team race away from the mix, that we would not be planning that for out and many would not even go. It would turn into a little better version of the US Open. I know very few if any would be planning a year+ out for a dual tournament that may not have their team at it.

 

Maybe you have hopes that your favorite team will contend for a title, but if even if they don't at least you have a good idea that a few of the wrestlers will represent. This will never be the case in a dual tourney.

Exactly. The downside of this years tournament is there aren't enough tickets to go around!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I was one of the 700 in attendance at the Mizzou Regional.

 

Living 100 miles from Columbia doesn't permit me to attend many duals. However, with this event being National Duals, I decided to make the journey, despite the 10 AM start.

 

Although steep, I didn't mind the $15 addmission as I mistakingly ASSUMED that all the coaches would put out their best wrestlers against other teams in an attempt to advance to next weekend. Therefore, I would get to see multiple matchups of Ranked wrestlers. Winning duals to advance was the purpose of this event, or so I thought. I really believed that this event would be DIFFERENT than the many other duals I have attended where forfeits or backups were used in a game on "Seedmanship".

 

I WAS WRONG. What a disappointment !!

 

In the 1st place dual, down only by a score of 4-0, Purdue elects to not wrestle #16 Quiroga against #5 McCormick at 133#. They forfeit. If that bad wasn't enough, Purdue then decided to also not wrestle #13 Lopouchanski against #15 Houdashelt at 149#. What a sham.

 

What purpose did these moves serve ? How is Purdue going to win the dual and advance to next weekend with this madness ? I really don't understand the logic behind these moves. And before someone claims injury, I saw both Purdue wrestlers in the dual against Wyoming and there was no sign of any problems for either wrestler.

 

With team aspects aside, what benefit did this provide to Quiroga or Lopouch ? Does this enhance their ability to get an NCAA seed by dodging ranked wrestlers ? It does hurt the Mizzou wrestlers who were denied an opportunity to get quality matches and make a stronger case for NCAA seeding.

 

More importantly, the 700 fans that were in attendance were denied the opportunity to witness the types of matches that prompted them to pay $15 and be there in the first place.

 

After Purdue sent a replacement out for Lopouchanski, a fan clearly and loudly yelled "what an embarrasment, why aren't you putting out your best wrestlers". Everyone in attendance including the Purdue coaches heard it. The Purdue coaches just laughed it up like they thought the statement was ridiculous. This is precisely the attitudes and mindsets that are killing attendance and in so doing, killing the very survival of our sport.

 

I will not attend another Regional. I suspect I am not the only attendee of this opinion.

 

And we wonder why our sport is "dying on the vine" ???????

I don't blame you Sir, that's for certain. On top of what you've already described, is why do these teams even enter the competition if they aren't there to win it? Are teams like Purdue "forced" to be there?

 

If you're sitting some of your better guys for seeding purposes (which is complete B.S. to begin with), you're essentially telling the rest of your team you already know how all the other matches are going to end, therefore we have no chance to win the dual, so why bother? It's mind-blowing.

 

If the outcome is already determined and you throw a backup in there, that's a slightly different story, but still B.S. if everyone is healthy (unless you don't have a backup at all I suppose - which would beg the question - why don't you have a backup?).

 

I hate our "Sue-Happy" Society we live in, but perhaps you could go the route some Miami Heat (I think it was the Heat) fan did when he bought some premium tickets to go see the Heat/Spurs, and Popovich didn't even have a healthy Parker, Ginobli and Duncan in Florida. Last I saw nothing had been determined yet (except for the Spurs got a huge fine I believe). I hope the guy wins and gets his money back. Pay for an Escalade and drive away in a Ford Focus. Conning people out of their hard-earned money is supposed to be a crime.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, we aren't college basketball or the NFL, but once upon a time, those sports weren't Major League Baseball, either.

 

I'm not saying this is the solution, but what I am saying is I'd like 80 percent of a team's schedule to mean something on the scoreboard, not just the individual season record form.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No, we aren't college basketball or the NFL, but once upon a time, those sports weren't Major League Baseball, either.

 

I'm not saying this is the solution, but what I am saying is I'd like 80 percent of a team's schedule to mean something on the scoreboard, not just the individual season record form.

I agree that right now the duals take a backseat to the individuals, but the results do matter. It matters to me that MN won the dual championship last season, if you need the NCAA to tell you that it matters then we have much larger problems than you think.

What's really scary to me is what happens when you water down the greatest draw in the sport on a gamble, a gamble that quite frankly has bad odds too.

There has been some great duals this season, but there have been some embarrassments too. Probably more of the latter, and I'm not talking about the wrestling. You can't sit a guy in March.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still think the "gambling on" type of statement is overstating it.

 

As it stands right now, we determine our team champion with a scoring format that two out of three people can't explain without asking the guy next to them.

 

Coaches aren't helping the case for a dual meet to be the determining factor by sitting able-bodied backups, either.

 

But I'm serious about that tournament scoring thing. I'd be curious to how many people actually know how many points 1-8th place are worth without looking it up or asking for help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We don't need to know the scoring format, that is the beauty of it. Even the casual fans know that having 6 people in the semis and advancing 4 to the finals piles on the points. I realize you are in love with the team title going to the dual winner, but the idea sucks and it needs to stay with the current format.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jason- If that's the problem, it's easier to teach fans the scoring than it is to convince them that national duals will save wrestling.

Why don't they announce scoring before the rounds? That would help part of it. The bonus scoring is known to most people, but that is easy an remedy as well.

 

Under national duals, if a team has it "wrapped up" why would you wrestle your starters? That's going to be an issue under this scenario because there is no reward for winning big or penalty for forfeiting.

 

I bet I refreshed the team score page 10,000 times last March to know what each round shaped up like. Even if you know the scoring you won't keep track of every match from every team in the top five. That's what I like about it... it's hectic like March Madness and Jan 1 used to be. So much wrestling going on and then you have breaks, during those breaks you get caught up on what you missed.

Obviously there are guys here that could care less about that team score, but how many fans have already told you they do care. People know whats up, I hear the conversations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...