Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
wrestle09

attendance at national duals

Recommended Posts

Oldrules,

Accepting ignorance is hardly a beauty of anything ... like posting under different names with the same boorish message and hater attitude

 

Twosix,

I get the scoring, you get the scoring but can you explain to joe sports fan why a team scores what they do? Then can you explain to them why a fall is six points one place but only two another? I'm not arguing solely for the dual component, I'm arguing to get people to admit there are concepts in our sport that alienate the rest of the sporting world.

 

I like the tournament the way it is ... but that does not mean we have to shoot down new concepts because that's the way it's always been.

 

I'm trying to draw out other points to discuss so a healthy discussion open to all angles can develop.

 

There are benefits to looking at things from a different perspective. Have I once said I prefer a dual deciding the champion? No. I do think duals need to be relevant and I do think fans should have some end all when you wrestle 3/4 of your schedule one way, but determine a winner another

 

What exactly does winning The Midlands, Scuffle or CKLV accomplish? Right now, the same as winning a dual -- very little.

 

Only twice a year does winning a tournament matter ... and over a 5 month season, that's too few meaningful events for our sport to live in the sports marketplace. Please try to see I'm arguing points - not an entire premise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As it stands right now, we determine our team champion with a scoring format that two out of three people can't explain without asking the guy next to them.

 

...

 

But I'm serious about that tournament scoring thing. I'd be curious to how many people actually know how many points 1-8th place are worth without looking it up or asking for help.

I have to buy a program at every tournament I go to for a reminder about how tournament scoring works, I end up checking it multiple times to make sure I remember right. There were several people sitting near me during last years EIWA finals who were asking around about how the scoring worked. The people who attend EIWAs are probably pretty serious wrestling fans and are certainly not representative of the potential fanbase who we should be pushing to get (i.e. everyone who wrestled in high school).

 

I like the tournament the way it is ... but that does not mean we have to shoot down new concepts because that's the way it's always been.

I like the tournament the way it is too, I'm sure almost everyone who sits around all day reading college wrestling message boards likes the tournament the way it is. People who post on wrestling message boards aren't the people who need to be converting to fans, they're already fans. Catering to the hardcore dedicated fans doesn't grow a fanbase, catering to potential fans does.

 

 

Only twice a year does winning a tournament matter ... and over a 5 month season, that's too few meaningful events for our sport to live in the sports marketplace. Please try to see I'm arguing points - not an entire premise.

And those two meaningful events require fans sitting in gyms for at least an entire day (if not multiple days). Do you think some guy who wrestled in high school but hasn't been involved with the sport since is more likely to go watch a dual (which he understands the scoreing of) which involved the local team and a chance to make it to the 'NCAA tournament' or a tournament which he as to drive several hours to then spend all day sitting in a gym and not understand the scoring?

 

A dual tournament makes regular season duals relevant to casual and potential fans, especially if they do it right and all conference champs get an automatic bid to the year end tournament. The regular season directly determining who goes to the 'big dance' allows storylines to develop and lets local media get involved. It gets student and the local wrestling community out to meets which puts buts in seats. School administrators like buts in seats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most people agree that our sport is only serious about what happens in march. Everything else, the four other months of the season are more or less a warmup. When I propose changes to make the season more relevant people always claim that it will destroy march. So is it true that we can only have success in march or success during the season? I don't think that's the case. But let's suppose it is true. Right now we get 17k fans to attend the ncaas. What if the change really did hurt the individual championship and only 10-12k people attended. What also if now people started following duals more closely and dual attendance rose for more campus duals? I would much rather have more people following their local programs throughout the season than being concerned about only one weekend a year.

 

The reality is that March does nothing to preserve our sport. We have had plenty of programs cut that had recently had National Champions, All-Americans, and Top-10 finishes. The reality is that without an on campus presence our sport has nothing to sell to the schools that fund our sport. What does a school care that Des Moines is sold out and it is hard to get tickets? How does that have any impact on the school?

 

It has been said time and time again that people are sick of going to duals and seeing them mean nothing. They are sick of going to a dual and having a program pull their starters and be more willing to take a dual loss than to push their athletes in any way that could risk March. If the season's body of work, as a team, impacted the national accolades of a team, I think coaches would put a better product on the mat for duals. I think people would care more about duals.

 

This proposal is not for those that know the sport inside and out, it is for the fans of wrestling that only know Penn State and Iowa are good. It is for those that wrestled or have watched the sport at the high school and youth level for years but can't explain tournament scoring. This is for the people who think it is better for a wrestler to be recruited to NYU than it is to Edinboro because they assume the big name school has a better wrestling program. If there are 30k intense wrestling fans that will fly to the NCAAs there are at least half million fans around the country that are willing to drive an hour to catch duals that matter and follow their local teams. Maybe it is only good enough to raise the average dual attendance from about 350 to 1,500 but I think that is huge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the satellite sites for a dual tournament, even if it means a little less attendance. I like that people are trying to make this a marquee event. I also think we should try as hard as we can to get the NCAA to sponsor both events. I have heard the argument that they will not sponsor two championships. I just find it hard to believe that if there is money to be made by doing so, that we don't have a decent chance at getting them to change their mind. I think that is the battle that needs to be fought. Maybe that means splitting the season into a dual and a tournament season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have heard the argument that they will not sponsor two championships.

They won't sponsor 2 team championships, they will sponsor 2 championships if one is a team championship and the other is an individual championship (team score would still be kept and announced at the individiual championship).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not a terrible idea from Cael as a format for National Duals, but obviously it wouldn't work if we were to determine an NCAA team championship from it(i know Cael stated it wouldn't replace our current format anyway). There would be so much resistance from those outside the Big Ten Conference, even though it does historically hold most of the best teams.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have heard the argument that they will not sponsor two championships.

They won't sponsor 2 team championships, they will sponsor 2 championships if one is a team championship and the other is an individual championship (team score would still be kept and announced at the individiual championship).

Then I say keep it as a NWCA dual championship and keep trying to make it as good as you can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jason,

 

I post under one name here and one name only. I like the National Duals just fine. I hate that it is on multiple weekends and I hate that it is at multiple sites. I do not live in a wrestling hotbed and can only see marquee teams twice a year. When the duals were in one place I had that opportunity. By having them at this point in the season teams are sitting out their best wrestlers. Regular season duals already carry enough meaning to them. They act as a build up to the NCAA's. Even in high school and at every level of college, the whole season is geared toward the end of season tournament. The other reality is that wrestling is not a growth sport. Even the best marketers in the world are not going to generate that many new casual fans in this country. That fan base belongs to basketball and NFL. We have plenty of room to grow, but we aren't going to grow. Wrestling is a niche sport with a very small niche.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They haven't figured out accountability let alone who was the "BEST" in a 7 minute match...Flip Flop and another Flip Flop and will Iowa wrestle their best???...Will Mr. Dake move up to beat Mr. Evans for the "TEAM" or will he look for "6" against...Some have made it clear that when you pay to see Ali vs Frazier it better be Ali vs Frazier!!!

 

P.S. Attendance is the key and I haven't seen anything close to the NCAA TOURNAMENT or the BIG TENS for that matter!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jason, if you believe being able to explain scoring to the average joe sports fan is critical, we have an even bigger problem.... FS wrestling. ;)

 

My 2 cents:

 

Having two team championship events seems like it wouldn't work. No other sport has it in any meaningful way. It dilutes the meaning of championship. It has to be the ncaa tournament (as it it currently), or switch to a national duals champ.

 

One can imagine a duals national championship thriving some day, after several years of growing pains. It could be like the March Madness BB, with regional games, and teams advancing. Maybe it would work and grow the sport....but it's not guaranteed.

 

In view of the roaring success of the current ncaa tournament, always sold out, attendance records being broken, etc., dropping this as the national team championship and replacing it with duals could harm wrestling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of great posts. Here is something to ponder for the" I love NCAA guys". Omaha 18K plus sold out. Phil.21600 sold out. St Louis 22K sold out. Why in heck take that to a stadium with 16900 seats in East blitzkrieg with inadequate air,car and rooming/ Here is a listing of stadii. NB there are many with 20K and quite a few are in cities with plentiful air, car and rooming services.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_in ... oor_arenas

 

Another opinion pooh poohed by some. Regions should be ie. Socon Acc; (EWL CAA), ( EIWA);( BiG );

( B12 and MAC) and Pac 10 with WWC. top 8 by dual record from each region wrestles off. 3 sent to show for each region. The problem is some regions may send less qualified teams. So be it We are trying to grow the sport and short range this may be painful but i think long range it brings a lot more regional interest.

 

The format: 3 from each conference and top 6 from previous season Nat duals byed in. Finals wrestled to 6th place (3 mats)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They haven't figured out accountability let alone who was the "BEST" in a 7 minute match...Flip Flop and another Flip Flop and will Iowa wrestle their best???...Will Mr. Dake move up to beat Mr. Evans for the "TEAM" or will he look for "6" against...Some have made it clear that when you pay to see Ali vs Frazier it better be Ali vs Frazier!!!

 

P.S. Attendance is the key and I haven't seen anything close to the NCAA TOURNAMENT or the BIG TENS for that matter!!!

 

You're using two years of regionals vs. 80-something of the NCAA and Big Ten Championships. Apples and Oranges.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where is the evidence that duals will grow the sport? It keeps getting talked about as if its a likelihood, which I believe couldn't be further from the truth. If the idea is to grow the sport by creating a TV event that showcases a packed arena and involved 2 of the same 4 teams every year, I think that can be achieved, and is likely the entirety of what this proposal would produce. However, that won't grow the sport, and it could have the effect of making it much less relevant to people that aren't fans of the final two school. College wrestling has many issues, but the lack of dual meet certainly isn't one of them, and the history of poorly attended duals throughout college and international wrestling is proof of this. I sincerely hope this energy is directed into other avenues that make help the sport.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really if they only focused on Region and not "TEAM" you would put fans in the seats...Set up for a more exciting NCAA Tournament!!!

 

P.S. East vs West...North vs South...ETC...

 

 

 

They haven't figured out accountability let alone who was the "BEST" in a 7 minute match...Flip Flop and another Flip Flop and will Iowa wrestle their best???...Will Mr. Dake move up to beat Mr. Evans for the "TEAM" or will he look for "6" against...Some have made it clear that when you pay to see Ali vs Frazier it better be Ali vs Frazier!!!

 

P.S. Attendance is the key and I haven't seen anything close to the NCAA TOURNAMENT or the BIG TENS for that matter!!!

 

You're using two years of regionals vs. 80-something of the NCAA and Big Ten Championships. Apples and Oranges.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PSU fans should have little to say about National Duals until they attend them.

Penn State is attending them.... next season basically against his best judgement. They aren't attending them now because they don't work. They can draw 6k+ every home dual and even it Utah, how will the duals benefit PSU? You may not like Cael or his decisions, but he is right on here and it's not up to Penn State and Iowa to fix wrestling. He says the duals are too close to NCAAs and he's right.

This thread isn't just about National duals by the way, it's about the change to NCAAs in March as well, which as far as I can tell Penn State does will attend.

Way to contribute! :roll:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have always been baffled by how people can think growth in our sport can come via our current model. We have topped out attendance at the NCAAs. We can't get any more people into the venues and if, as some people say, it is just the same people people going to the NCAAs each year, then it must be the same people that are attending duals on campus.

 

I guess that duals average about 350 fans when you look at all the D1 duals around the country. Everyone would agree that these numbers are poor and that only die hards and parents attend a lot of duals (outside of the top programs) and they are probably right.

 

But, at the same time these same people claim the NCAAs are well attended? Are the NCAAs well attended or is it just the only event that could have every program represented and fans travel to this event?

 

About 16,000 tickets are sold, on average, to the NCAAs and there are typically 72 programs that qualify athletes to the event. You can be sure that at least 2,000 of those fans are family of the athletes that won't be regular attendees of the NCAAs. If we divide the 16,000 fans into the 72 teams is 222 fans per team in attendance.

 

Now, I know that each team doesn't have 222 fans in attendance but, it seems to me, that the following at the NCAAs is more closely tied to dual attendance and that drawing in fans to a local program and building a connection to that community and athletes is a better way to attract fans than it is to preserve an individual tournament that hopes to get people to follow the sport with no connection or development of on campus local duals.

 

There are a lot of alumni groups (Clemson, Syracuse, Slippery Rock, William & Mary, etc) that use the NCAAs as their reunion event. These people will still attend the NCAAs and likely the individual championship. They have no real connection or attachment to the athletes or teams competing but use the event as a proxy for what they once had and what was taken from them when their school forgot about them. The NCAAs, for a lot of people, is a place for lost souls to meet and share something that they can't share with others anywhere else.

 

I think we give too much credit to the NCAAs as it stands right now and I don't see any reason to think it will do anything but continue the trend of programs slowly dying off as we don't try to build the on campus excitement through duals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pinnum- The NCAAs are exciting. Simple, not much else to explain is there? You don't like a match look to another mat. There are always interesting match-ups going on (too many to keep up with sometimes).

There are quite a few fans who will drive to a dual just to see one weight square off, and this season a couple times they have left without even seeing that match. I stated this before to you, sometimes duals are boring. Sorry but that's the truth. Only very few hardcore fans want to watch a three period snooze-fest because one guy is trying to keep under bonus points.

I personally know 25 people that are going to NCAAs (3 still looking for tix) and out of all those guys, 6-7 have been to duals (I would have to call my brother to see if his friends have went to any, but I doubt it) so I don't think your above theory is at all the case.

The fact that so many wrestlers from so many places does hold water though. Friends and families that are even so-so fans can live in any part of the US and have an excuse to get together. Which is why the nightlife probably is also big usually.

 

B1G was pretty exciting last year, but was a ton of empty seats on the other side of the arena.

 

Under National Duals in the first couple rounds you fly (or drive) and how many "premier" match-ups at one location are you going to see? If Indiana only gets say 300 at their home duals why would more than that travel to watch them get manhandled? You are counting on the big draws to pad the National Duals numbers, and those guys are going to draw no matter what.

I'm not knocking here, I'm just trying to understand why people would/should go? I have seriously given thought to 4 events this year, and I am going to only 1(B1G). National Duals just doesn't interest me, and from what I have read so far.... I was right. Tell me what I missed so I won't skip next year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have not read each of the comments so I apologize if I am borrowing or stealing people's opinions. First I am a graduate if the University of Missouri. I was fortunate enough to qualify for NCAAs my freshman year before I was injured and could not continue wrestling. I am currently a high school coach who travels to a lot of the large tournaments throughout the spring and summer. Enough of my background. Now my opinion.

 

In order to grow our sport I believe that we need to help sell the second tier and lower programs to the public. We have help those programs create a brand. Right now in my opinion, we value the individual over the program in 95% of division 1 wrestling. The only exceptions being Oklahoma State, Iowa, Penn State, and Minnesota and one or two others every couple of years. Individuals in the next set of programs are viewed as more important than the overall team. The issue is, if Ben Askren were my favorite wrestler then I followed Mizzou wrestling for the years he was there and then moved on to a new wrestler, possibly in a new program. If I am a fan of Mizzou wrestling then I follow the program even when he is gone. It is easier to sell an individual exciting wrestler than it is to generate fans of an overall program. However, it is only a short lived gain, especially for the programs that are not in the top 5 every year. We have got to figure out ways to sell all of our college programs to people who are not wrestling fans or people who would ever be on this forum. Getting people to support the teams will create a longer lasting and stronger relationship.

 

Not sure if the national duals are the answer or not but we do not have much to lose. The individual national championship will always appeal to the die hards because of the certainty of the elite matches. I know my group travels to the NCAAs because of that and we like to get together and talk about how good we were (more imagination than reality).

 

Lastly, and possibly off topic. We have got to use our own youth to create a fan base. I go to the local youth tournaments and see hundreds of possible fans that do not even know that about an hour away is a top 10 division 1 wrestling program. The day after the Olympic announcement I spoke to my team about the sport we all love being in serious danger. I then asked them how many had traveled down to Mizzou to watch the Mizzou vs. Oklahoma State dual meet a couple weeks prior. (I knew the answer was zero because I had talked to them all about going and went myself but none of them went). Then I asked how many of our football players would have gone to a football game between two top 10 teams. The answer revealed a cold hard truth. We love wrestling but are not fans of the sport. We all love to compete and wrestle but not many of the youth and high school wrestlers like to go watch. Until that changes wrestling will continue to die a slow death.

 

Enough of my rant. Time for another beer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PSU fans should have little to say about National Duals until they attend them.

Penn State is attending them.... next season basically against his best judgement. They aren't attending them now because they don't work. They can draw 6k+ every home dual and even it Utah, how will the duals benefit PSU? You may not like Cael or his decisions, but he is right on here and it's not up to Penn State and Iowa to fix wrestling. He says the duals are too close to NCAAs and he's right.

This thread isn't just about National duals by the way, it's about the change to NCAAs in March as well, which as far as I can tell Penn State does will attend.

Way to contribute! :roll:

 

Explain how they don't work.

It is personal belief that Cael has that the duals are too close.

What PSU draws is irrelavent, other then great for them for modeling what wrestling should be like outside of Iowa.

 

I like Cael, I dislike his opinions/stances on this event. He has a great team and could win it. It is good for wrestling and the fans.

 

There isn't a good time for the event to make everyone happy and people will find a reason to complain no matter when you put it. Big 10 schedule, too early, too late, etc...you can't win.

 

This thread was a direct attempt to troll on National Duals and advocate that Cael was right, period.

The rest has been laid out in too many threads already.

 

Please explain to me how you don't want to see PSU this weekend mix it up with Minny, Okie St, or even Cornell?? How is that bad for wrestling??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally know 25 people that are going to NCAAs (3 still looking for tix) and out of all those guys, 6-7 have been to duals.

Doesn't this example show that the current system does little to nothing to encourage attendance at regular season duals?

 

Under National Duals in the first couple rounds you fly (or drive) and how many "premier" match-ups at one location are you going to see? If Indiana only gets say 300 at their home duals why would more than that travel to watch them get manhandled? You are counting on the big draws to pad the National Duals numbers, and those guys are going to draw no matter what.

Focusing on attendance at national duals is missing the forest for the trees. If regular season duals count for something it will create interest amoung the casual or potential fans (as well as students) in regular season duals. 'This dual is huge for XYZ University's chances at making the NCAA tournament' is a much easier sell to the locals than 'this dual may have some important implications for seeding for some of XYZ University's wrestlers for their conference tournament that's going to be several hours away and you won't pay attention to anyway'

 

Increasing attendance at home meets is what's going to save programs. It's pretty clear that selling out nationals isn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have not read each of the comments so I apologize if I am borrowing or stealing people's opinions. First I am a graduate if the University of Missouri. I was fortunate enough to qualify for NCAAs my freshman year before I was injured and could not continue wrestling. I am currently a high school coach who travels to a lot of the large tournaments throughout the spring and summer. Enough of my background. Now my opinion.

 

In order to grow our sport I believe that we need to help sell the second tier and lower programs to the public. We have help those programs create a brand. Right now in my opinion, we value the individual over the program in 95% of division 1 wrestling. The only exceptions being Oklahoma State, Iowa, Penn State, and Minnesota and one or two others every couple of years. Individuals in the next set of programs are viewed as more important than the overall team. The issue is, if Ben Askren were my favorite wrestler then I followed Mizzou wrestling for the years he was there and then moved on to a new wrestler, possibly in a new program. If I am a fan of Mizzou wrestling then I follow the program even when he is gone. It is easier to sell an individual exciting wrestler than it is to generate fans of an overall program. However, it is only a short lived gain, especially for the programs that are not in the top 5 every year. We have got to figure out ways to sell all of our college programs to people who are not wrestling fans or people who would ever be on this forum. Getting people to support the teams will create a longer lasting and stronger relationship.

 

Not sure if the national duals are the answer or not but we do not have much to lose. The individual national championship will always appeal to the die hards because of the certainty of the elite matches. I know my group travels to the NCAAs because of that and we like to get together and talk about how good we were (more imagination than reality).

 

Lastly, and possibly off topic. We have got to use our own youth to create a fan base. I go to the local youth tournaments and see hundreds of possible fans that do not even know that about an hour away is a top 10 division 1 wrestling program. The day after the Olympic announcement I spoke to my team about the sport we all love being in serious danger. I then asked them how many had traveled down to Mizzou to watch the Mizzou vs. Oklahoma State dual meet a couple weeks prior. (I knew the answer was zero because I had talked to them all about going and went myself but none of them went). Then I asked how many of our football players would have gone to a football game between two top 10 teams. The answer revealed a cold hard truth. We love wrestling but are not fans of the sport. We all love to compete and wrestle but not many of the youth and high school wrestlers like to go watch. Until that changes wrestling will continue to die a slow death.

 

Enough of my rant. Time for another beer.

 

Jason - Wow! Fantastic post! Thank you for all of that. You put forth some excellent points there.

 

For those who have not seen it - Rob Koll makes some very similar points in his 2/19 interview with Scott Casber, especially the need to build up wrestling from the ground up at the youth level. I think it's worth a listen. The commentary on the relationship between folkstyle and freestyle is interesting as well. go to: http://www.takedownradio.com/articles/8120

 

Now, Jason, let's go get that beer! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...