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attendance at national duals

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Explain how they don't work.

It is personal belief that Cael has that the duals are too close.

What PSU draws is irrelavent, other then great for them for modeling what wrestling should be like outside of Iowa.

I like Cael, I dislike his opinions/stances on this event. He has a great team and could win it. It is good for wrestling and the fans.

 

There isn't a good time for the event to make everyone happy and people will find a reason to complain no matter when you put it. Big 10 schedule, too early, too late, etc...you can't win.

 

This thread was a direct attempt to troll on National Duals and advocate that Cael was right, period.

The rest has been laid out in too many threads already.

 

Please explain to me how you don't want to see PSU this weekend mix it up with Minny, Okie St, or even Cornell?? How is that bad for wrestling??

First off, thanks for replying without contempt.

 

They don't work because outside of the top 4 programs nobody is going to win, so fans from those schools aren't going to attend.

 

It's not just a personal belief by Cael, it's an issue that has been discussed by many people. I just happen to agree that Nat Duals B1G and NCAA is an awful lot of peak wrestling, not that you can't do it.

 

What PSU draws is relevant. In my understanding of this format, Penn state could lose home duals. Am I not following how the bidding works or the advancement? So is the revenue from the sellouts at Rec Hall not lost to PSU? Genuine question, not sarcasm.

 

Cael has a great team (agree) he could win it (agree) great for wrestling and fans (this is the part we are all debating. National Duals has some potential, but it also has many down sides that have been laid out in many threads as you already pointed out.) I really believe Cael is going because most PSU fans think the team should be there, not because he is sold on the event.

 

I certainly wasn't aware that the thread was started to troll, maybe the OP has some history? My first reply was that it's too early to judge this events success and that's still true. The next rounds could be wildly successful, we will see.

I would love it if Penn state were at the event. I want to see the match-ups the would present themselves as much as everyone else and have stated so in many threads. I also want to win the Team Championships in March. I don't want the championships determined by home advantage, stalling, or anything but aggressive wrestling. I don't want bonus in March to dwindle because it's irrelevant.

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You want to know why we value the individual in wrestling? Because it takes certain types of individuals to make wrestling exciting to watch. You know why people care about the teams at places like Iowa and PSU? Because they preach exciting aggressive wrestling and have more of these types of individuals on their teams. If NC State had a lineup full of Darrion Caldwells for 4 years, I have no doubt that they would be getting 6-8k for home duals by the time they were seniors. Put out an exciting product i.e Iowa, PSU, and get promoting it to your community and you will grow attendance. You don't have to have a flashy style like Darrian Caldwell to put out a great product either. You can be exciting by wrestling hard for seven minutes and winning matches in the 3rd period. That is my biggest knock on the current freestyle rules. These rules have pretty much eliminated the most exciting type of matches, the one where a McIravry, Ironside, or Schwab break their opponent and storm back from a seemingly insurmountable deficit.

 

Putting the emphasis on boring teams = Boring product

 

In one sense I agree with you that you need to put the emphasis on teams. In that, if you take that component away from the NCAA tournament, it will become a shadow of the what it is right now. That being the greatest wrestling tournament in the world.

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Two-Six - I don't think that is correct.

 

The National Duals are an exempt event so they don't count against the allowable dates. PSU easily could have had a commitment to Utah Valley that prompted them to not enter the National Duals when they changed to the end of the year. No program will lose home dates by being in the duals. In all reality, teams will likely pick up home dates. I thought I hear Penn State was offered to be a host site.

 

According to rumors following the coaches summit, every program (Penn State and Lehigh included) has said they will participate in the national duals next year. I do wonder what format they will go with and if maybe they will go with eight regionals rather than four. But whatever the format, I am not too concerned, just as long as everyone is entered and we have a great event.

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Two-six,

Our current model also has a format where only 4-5 teams can win. Only what, 10 have ever won?

Jason, I meant win the dual not the championship. Those first rounds and most second rounds are forgone conclusions already. In some cases maybe even shut-outs. Why would someone make travel plans to watch that?

There is no parity, and National Duals isn't going to change that. Until there is, to some extent wrestling will suffer.

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Jason, I meant win the dual not the championship. Those first rounds and most second rounds are forgone conclusions already. In some cases maybe even shut-outs. Why would someone make travel plans to watch that?

Plenty of teams in the first couple rounds of the basketball tournament with no shot at winning, these teams fans still get pretty reved up for their team just getting there.

Even if legions of fans don't travel to the first few rounds they'll go to the meets that get their team into the first round, which is the important part everyone is ignoring.

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Jason, I meant win the dual not the championship. Those first rounds and most second rounds are forgone conclusions already. In some cases maybe even shut-outs. Why would someone make travel plans to watch that?

Plenty of teams in the first couple rounds of the basketball tournament with no shot at winning, these teams fans still get pretty reved up for their team just getting there.

Even if legions of fans don't travel to the first few rounds they'll go to the meets that get their team into the first round, which is the important part everyone is ignoring.

#16 seeds haven't won, but they have been close and it's really just a matter of time.

I'm not ignoring that you "think" they will show up, I just don't agree that they will.

Are you ignoring the other points? What are the answers to FFTs, and stalling in the duals and bonus in March? Let me guess, that will all just work itself out as well.

If teams have a shot at winning a dual their fans might show up, might. Else it is just not going to happen.

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You want to know why we value the individual in wrestling? Because it takes certain types of individuals to make wrestling exciting to watch. You know why people care about the teams at places like Iowa and PSU? Because they preach exciting aggressive wrestling and have more of these types of individuals on their teams. If NC State had a lineup full of Darrion Caldwells for 4 years, I have no doubt that they would be getting 6-8k for home duals by the time they were seniors. Put out an exciting product i.e Iowa, PSU, and get promoting it to your community and you will grow attendance. You don't have to have a flashy style like Darrian Caldwell to put out a great product either. You can be exciting by wrestling hard for seven minutes and winning matches in the 3rd period. That is my biggest knock on the current freestyle rules. These rules have pretty much eliminated the most exciting type of matches, the one where a McIravry, Ironside, or Schwab break their opponent and storm back from a seemingly insurmountable deficit.

 

Putting the emphasis on boring teams = Boring product

 

In one sense I agree with you that you need to put the emphasis on teams. In that, if you take that component away from the NCAA tournament, it will become a shadow of the what it is right now. That being the greatest wrestling tournament in the world.

^^^ Agree with Otis. IMO, casual sports fans' lack of interest in wrestling is primarily because they don't find it as exciting as other sports. Based on last year's attendance, one could even claim that Iowa's basketball team is more popular then their wrestling team. Both have their home games/duals in CHA. Basketball averaged 11,908 fans per game and wrestling averaged 9,014 fans per dual (using published attendance numbers for 2012).

 

Not picking on Iowa. In fact, I'm using them as an example because they have the best attendance in college wrestling. Nonetheless, more fans came out in 2012 to watch their basketball team, which had an 18-17 overall record, an 8-10 conference record, finished 7th in the B1G standings, and didn't receive an at-large bid to the NCAA tournament. Now, what does the above say about college wrestling elsewhere, particularly those programs with low attendance?

 

To me, the above reinforces Otis' point that if we are to increase wrestling's popularity, we need to focus on putting a spectator-friendly product out on the mat. In general, casual sports fans' alienation from wrestling is simply because, for the most part, they find it boring. The assertion that they may not understand tournament scoring or believe regular season duals are meaningless (a false premise,IMO, but I digress) has little, if anything, to do with wrestling's popularity. If the wrestling they see, in and of itself, doesn't stimulate their enthusiasm for the sport; then potential fans don't even have a reason to be concerned with such fine points.

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I'm not ignoring that you "think" they will show up, I just don't agree that they will.

There is no guarantee that a new system would increase turnout, but it's clear that the current system isn't getting it done.

 

Are you ignoring the other points? What are the answers to FFTs,

I believe teams are less likely to forfeit a weight if the dual means something, do you disagree?

 

and stalling in the duals

There will probably still be stalling in duals but someone stalling and trying to to get pinned doesn't mean that match can't be exciting or dramatic. But more importantly I don't think that the potential that someone might stall during a match is going to keep the students or casual fans (and by 'casual fans' I mean people who have some background or experience in the sport but don't closely follow college wrestling or regularly attend meets) away.

 

and bonus in March? Let me guess, that will all just work itself out as well.

I don't buy that if the NCAA doesn't recognize the team champ in March that everyone will stop trying to score and just settle for 3-1 decisions. The majority of wrestlers competing at NCAAs are on teams with no chance at bringing home a team trophy and they somehow still find the motivation to try to win matches big.

And more importantly what do bonus points being scored in March do to keep smaller programs from being cut?

 

If teams have a shot at winning a dual their fans might show up, might. Else it is just not going to happen.

Utah Valley set an attendence record last year when Penn State came to town, I don't think anyone thought they had a shot at winning. I was at the Boston U/Iowa State meet last year that also set an attendance record and I don't think the majority of people there thought BU could win (I don't think a lot of the kids there had ever seen a college wrestling meet before - they just knew 'Iowa' was really good)

 

Again, sellouts at nationals haven't been saving programs at the 'weaker' schools, big crowds at national duals regionals won't either. These schools filling their gym for home meets is what's going to get the attention of administrators and is what's going to keep these programs around.

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I am guessing by a lot of these comments that people haven't been to first round NCAA basketball games or to conference championships. These programs do not travel. I have no illusions that fans are going to travel and that's why I prefer on campus duals where one team out of the two always has their home crowd and can build on it. But at the NCAA mens basketball tournament there are only 1,500-2,000 tickets allocated to each first round team for their fans. At each site for the first day there are four games, two sessions with each session having two games and fans of a session get to watch both games in the session. As a result there are four teams in the gym and there are often lots of empty seats. Typically 6-8,000 seats in a 20k seat arena are saved for the team's to allocate. All of the remaining tickets are sold in advance to local fans. The same is true for the A10 champiopnship formerly in Atlantic City and the Big East Championships in NYC. These programs don't travel their home gym fans very well, it is mainly local fans or the fans that would be travelinf just as much to get to see them in their home gym.

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As far as the Iowa attendance post: Lehigh and Penn State averaged higher attendance for wrestling than basketball (and Lehigh beat Duke first round in the NCAAs). Also, Cornell had a larger crowd for their biggest dual, two years ago, than Cornell"s basketball team that year and their basketball team made the NCAA elite-eight.

 

These are just a few programs that have built a culture and developed their fan bases in the East. I am confident we can capture the fans and build on it but it takes a lot of work. I once heard Koll said promoting the programs and making calls to get people to attend his home duals was the most taxing part of coaching and trying to build a program. There is no doubt it takes work, but when the work has been put in we have watched Rutgers draw 6,000, Virginia Tech draw 6,000, Chattanooga draw 2,200. I have no doubt we can build it if the incentive is there.

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No, if a team isn't going to win I doubt it will change whether the FFt or not.

 

There will be stalling as that is a proven way to win duals. Prevent the other teams scorers from scoring.

 

Home Advantage? You didn't cover that, you think that should be a major player in how the NCAA champion is crowned?

 

So you don't buy that the NCAA stamp on the Team championship has any meaning? Here we go again. If it does not have meaning why do you need it for National Duals?

The majority of wrestlers competing at NCAAs are on teams with no chance at bringing home a team trophy and they somehow still find the motivation to try to win matches big.
Even though you are trying to make a point here, this is my point. They are ALL trying to win their matches. This is NOT the case in duals.

How is National Duals going to save the small programs, they have no chance of winning? Somehow getting their arses handed to them in front of 8000 Hawkeye fans will save their programs?

 

Until you figure out a way to leave March alone you will be dividing the fanbase. You know what they say about dividing forces don't you. I will never be sold on ideas that remove the Championship from March, and nothing anyone has ever said tells me that "it's required" to do so. If your National Duals plan is to be successful based on what these arguments are, you don't need NCAA branding.

 

You are going from National Duals isn't going to save them, but somehow their regular season duals which are poor attended now will have meaning so people will show up to watch. I don't buy it.

You gave two examples of how teams with low attendance set records.

Ask Iowa how well their Men's BB was covered while they were losing. The NIT was still there, the NCAA tournament was still there. Nobody went to the games cause they weren't winning. Penn State has attendance issues in BB as well because they can't win.

Forget the National Duals and just rotate teams into Rec Hall and CHA every year, I just don't see how your plan is going to get fans into the seats of crappy teams.

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So you don't buy that the NCAA stamp on the Team championship has any meaning? Here we go again. If it does not have meaning why do you need it for National Duals?
The majority of wrestlers competing at NCAAs are on teams with no chance at bringing home a team trophy and they somehow still find the motivation to try to win matches big.

 

I didn't say that the NCAA stamp on a championship doesn't have any meaning. I said that I didn't buy that taking that stamp off of the trophy in March would lead to everyone giving up on trying to score bonus points. Everyone still tries to score bonus points at Midlands and the Scuffle and the Nittany Lion Open, wrestlers on teams with not chance at a team title still try to score bonus points in March.

 

You need the NCAA stamp on National Duals go give it legitimacy among casual wrestling fans (again, in my book 'casual wrestling fan' = someone with wrestling experience or connections who doesn't currently follow NCAA wrestling or attend meets) and to get ESPN on board. The non-diehard fans get a lot more excited about their team (or the local team) making a run at getting to the NCAA tournament (even if they'll get killed in the first round), nobody gets excited about their team qualifiying for the NIT.

 

Even though you are trying to make a point here, this is my point. They are ALL trying to win their matches. This is NOT the case in duals.

Again, casual fans don't care. They aren't going to travel and then sit in a gym for 9 hours to watch a tournament. They may take 2 hours to watch a dual at the local school especially if its a dual which would be meaningful for their teams' chances at qualifiying for the NCAA tournament.

 

How is National Duals going to save the small programs, they have no chance of winning? Somehow getting their arses handed to them in front of 8000 Hawkeye fans will save their programs?

Having a chance to win isn't what you need to put buts in seats, having a chance to qualify is. Fans get excited and turn out when their team is making a run at qualifying for the NCAA tournament and it isn't just for basketball, qualifying for the hockey or baseball or lacross tournaments get local fans excited, it gets local media involved and it gets students out to the games.

 

You are going from National Duals isn't going to save them, but somehow their regular season duals which are poor attended now will have meaning so people will show up to watch. I don't buy it.

Attendance at home duals is what gets on school administrators radar. Do you really think that the ADs at Sacred Heart, or the Citadel, or Campbell, or Northern Colorado care about how many people show up at nationals? If they fill their gym it sends the message to the admins that the team is well supported by the community and the student body. That's the message admins need to be getting to keep these programs around, nationals selling out and B1G fans being happy with the format isn't getting this done.

 

Which message do you think would get locals out to a dual at App State or Rider or North Dakota State:

"Winning this dual qualifies us for the NCAA tournament" or "This dual has some matchups that are important for seeding at the conference championships"?

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The NCAA stamp is exactly where it needs to be. Leave it on the March tournament and call it good. As for the duals, have it much earlier and perhaps more schools will participate. I doubt the NCAA is going to put their endorsement on two titles, and taking it from the March tournament is like robbing Peter to pay Paul. It just does not make sense no matter how much you like the idea or spruce it up.

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I think everyone agrees some changes need to be made to sell wrestling more, but don't mess with March. That would be a big mistake and makes no sense at all. Jazz up the regular season, hold a dual tourney, encourage coaches to attend for the good of the sport, discourage forfeits, contact local MMA/NFL training camps and encourage MMA/NFL stars with a history in wrestling to attend some home meets, use the media to spread the word about dual meets and rivalries, but no matter what, no matter how desperate things get, don't try to diminish the one thing that every fan loves and even non fans notice - the NCAA tournament in MArch.

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LtWtLooker - that is half true.

 

Recruitment rules only apply to high school students so middle schoolers and down can get tickets (Tickets for Kids does this). There is no rule that says you have to charge admissions for duals. There are a lot of programs that have free duals all year or on occasions. In addition, you can put together group packages of tickets and sell them ad reduced rates to high school teams.

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As far as the Iowa attendance post: Lehigh and Penn State averaged higher attendance for wrestling than basketball (and Lehigh beat Duke first round in the NCAAs). Also, Cornell had a larger crowd for their biggest dual, two years ago, than Cornell"s basketball team that year and their basketball team made the NCAA elite-eight.

True, but Penn State's wrestling attendance has only recently surpassed basketball's. Since Cael has arrived and put a more exciting product on the mat, wrestling attendance has doubled. At any rate, all three of the above-mentioned teams have wrestling traditions and good fan support. And all are in the top 10 in wrestling attendance nationwide. They're not the at-risk programs where our efforts might be better focused.

 

These are just a few programs that have built a culture and developed their fan bases in the East. I am confident we can capture the fans and build on it but it takes a lot of work. I once heard Koll said promoting the programs and making calls to get people to attend his home duals was the most taxing part of coaching and trying to build a program. There is no doubt it takes work, but when the work has been put in we have watched Rutgers draw 6,000, Virginia Tech draw 6,000, Chattanooga draw 2,200. I have no doubt we can build it if the incentive is there.

I think saying we've seen Chattanooga draw 2,200 may be a little misleading. UTC's dual attendance this year included a one-day event that drew 2,639 fans. However, there were 4 teams involved (UTC, VA, Cumberlands, and Iowa) and a total of 5 duals were wrestled. Iowa and Cumberlands wrestled all

3 of the other teams. (UTC and VA didn't wrestle each other). The opportunity to see Iowa was likely the main draw and, even then, if we average the attendance per dual, it amounts to 528. That falls within the range of attendance for UTC's other duals this year, where the number of fans was 398, 595, and 399.

 

That said, don't get me wrong, I think Heath Eslinger's a great guy and is doing his best to improve college wrestling. He stepped up and took over the Southern Scuffle when UNC-G dropped their program and has significantly increased attendance at that event. However, the reality of the matter is that it's a long hard road to establish a wrestling tradition in many areas of the country. People like quick fixes, but some of the proposals being advanced may not be the panacea they're touted to be. And, if implemented, they may even prove to be detrimental to the sport.

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As far as the Iowa attendance post: Lehigh and Penn State averaged higher attendance for wrestling than basketball (and Lehigh beat Duke first round in the NCAAs). Also, Cornell had a larger crowd for their biggest dual, two years ago, than Cornell"s basketball team that year and their basketball team made the NCAA elite-eight.

True, but Penn State's wrestling attendance has only recently surpassed basketball's. Since Cael has arrived and put a more exciting product on the mat, wrestling attendance has doubled. At any rate, all three of the above-mentioned teams have wrestling traditions and good fan support. And all are in the top 10 in wrestling attendance nationwide. They're not the at-risk programs where our efforts might be better focused.

 

These are just a few programs that have built a culture and developed their fan bases in the East. I am confident we can capture the fans and build on it but it takes a lot of work. I once heard Koll said promoting the programs and making calls to get people to attend his home duals was the most taxing part of coaching and trying to build a program. There is no doubt it takes work, but when the work has been put in we have watched Rutgers draw 6,000, Virginia Tech draw 6,000, Chattanooga draw 2,200. I have no doubt we can build it if the incentive is there.

I think saying we've seen Chattanooga draw 2,200 may be a little misleading. UTC's dual attendance this year included a one-day event that drew 2,639 fans. However, there were 4 teams involved (UTC, VA, Cumberlands, and Iowa) and a total of 5 duals were wrestled. Iowa and Cumberlands wrestled all

3 of the other teams. (UTC and VA didn't wrestle each other). The opportunity to see Iowa was likely the main draw and, even then, if we average the attendance per dual, it amounts to 528. That falls within the range of attendance for UTC's other duals this year, where the number of fans was 398, 595, and 399.

 

That said, don't get me wrong, I think Heath Eslinger's a great guy and is doing his best to improve college wrestling. He stepped up and took over the Southern Scuffle when UNC-G dropped their program and has significantly increased attendance at that event. However, the reality of the matter is that it's a long hard road to establish a wrestling tradition in many areas of the country. People like quick fixes, but some of the proposals being advanced may not be the panacea they're touted to be. And, if implemented, they may even prove to be detrimental to the sport.

Just to go on a complete and total tangent, but you have no idea how incompetent UNCG was with respect to running that event!

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two-six... you have some good points.

 

The same 4-5, maybe 6 teams will always win either event (dual or traditional).

Look at who is coaching those teams, they aren't going anywhere.

 

Delusional to think that creating this dual format is going to improve some of our lower teams and create parity and interest. The only thing that is going to help our lower-tier schools is to find more motivated coaches.

 

At least in the current model the lower teams could potentially have a bright spot, one or two individual all-americans, sneak into the top 10-20 at the current national format, and make a big impact on the perception and growth of a program. Those same 1-2 individuals will have zero to little impact on winning a dual meet or advancing in a Dual format tournament.

 

I hear a lot of backward thinking.

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At least in the current model the lower teams could potentially have a bright spot, one or two individual all-americans, sneak into the top 10-20 at the current national format, and make a big impact on the perception and growth of a program.

How big of an impact did the national champs at Fresno State, UC Davis and Oregon have on the perception and growth of those programs? How big of an impact did all those national qualifiers from UNCG and Liberty have on the perception and growth of those programs?

 

The big tournament in March isn't helping small programs on the chopping block. Support from the students and local community is what's going to keep those programs around and that starts with putting buts in seats at their home duals.

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