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Jon_Kozak

Kyle Dake...

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As much as I love JB Dake has caught him. JB is lucky they added weights. Dake almost beat him after going through the mini which in same day wrestling is huge. Dake would have beat Burroughs if not for the bye in my opinion. Dake and Taylor had two great wrestlers to beat and nearly did it. As Varner almost did in 2016. I am against the bye and in my opinion it simply is not right. But it is what it is and we are probably going to have our greatest team in our history this year. I think we are actually the favorites. I have never said that before-ever!

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As much as I love JB Dake has caught him. JB is lucky they added weights. Dake almost beat him after going through the mini which in same day wrestling is huge. Dake would have beat Burroughs if not for the bye in my opinion. Dake and Taylor had two great wrestlers to beat and nearly did it. As Varner almost did in 2016. I am against the bye and in my opinion it simply is not right. But it is what it is and we are probably going to have our greatest team in our history this year. I think we are actually the favorites. I have never said that before-ever!

Preposterous to say a guy without a world medal has caught a guy who is the reigning world champ, with 4 of the last five world golds.

Oh, and multiple head to head wins including the most recent WTT.

Dake is awesome. He's not, and never will be, JB.

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As much as I love JB Dake has caught him. JB is lucky they added weights. Dake almost beat him after going through the mini which in same day wrestling is huge. Dake would have beat Burroughs if not for the bye in my opinion. Dake and Taylor had two great wrestlers to beat and nearly did it. As Varner almost did in 2016. I am against the bye and in my opinion it simply is not right. But it is what it is and we are probably going to have our greatest team in our history this year. I think we are actually the favorites. I have never said that before-ever!

I guess you're forgetting that they both competed in the US Nationals, both made the finals and Burroughs won allowing him to sit.

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I guess you're forgetting that they both competed in the US Nationals, both made the finals and Burroughs won allowing him to sit.

I agree with you. However Dake won that match, (ref gift) he simply did, and then took one from JB in the best of three. They are razor close but I think the new weights gave JB a chance to beat/tie John Smith's record. Otherwise Dake would have knocked him off. Dake will not be as great as JB for the career but right now it is a dead heat with the pendulum weighing in Dake's favor but they may never wrestle again. 

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Preposterous to say a guy without a world medal has caught a guy who is the reigning world champ, with 4 of the last five world golds.

Oh, and multiple head to head wins including the most recent WTT.

Dake is awesome. He's not, and never will be, JB.

He has caught JB but will never match that career I agree. 

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I agree with you. However Dake won that match, (ref gift) he simply did, and then took one from JB in the best of three. They are razor close but I think the new weights gave JB a chance to beat/tie John Smith's record. Otherwise Dake would have knocked him off. Dake will not be as great as JB for the career but right now it is a dead heat with the pendulum weighing in Dake's favor but they may never wrestle again. 

Hey may match or beat the overall numbers but he can't do 6 in a row. Smith was magic without a lapse when it was all on the line. His signature move worked his entire freestyle career and only got better as time marched on. Burroughs blast double has slowed down and is now almost gone.

Burroughs is an all time great but John Smith is the greatest this nation has ever had. Six in a row and Master of Technique, Wrestler of the year  even beats Baumgardner's haul of hardware.

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Hey may match or beat the overall numbers but he can't do 6 in a row. Smith was magic without a lapse when it was all on the line. His signature move worked his entire freestyle career and only got better as time marched on. Burroughs blast double has slowed down and is now almost gone.

Burroughs is an all time great but John Smith is the greatest this nation has ever had. Six in a row and Master of Technique, Wrestler of the year  even beats Baumgardner's haul of hardware.

 

Also beat Sergei Beloglazov, who I consider one of the two or three best ever. It was an exhibition match and up a weight for Sergei, but that match showed me something.

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Whines too much and was mentally beaten by JB to the point match three the result was a forgone conclusion. His mind game versus mere mortals.... off the charts, but he has shown he can get rattled and it costs him in matches. He has shown he can beat JB but if he doesn't win in two it is all but over.

The problem with this is viewpoint is that it fails to recognize how absurd our qualifying system is currently. Guys like Dake are getting screwed, so they have a very legitimate reason to whine. And as much as I have praised JB's mental toughness, the field is always titled in his favor during qualifying and he does not hestitate to take full advantage because he knows he will get away with it. I guess that is being smart. So Dake has to endure a direct physical disadvantage, knows he will lose every 50/50 and probably 60/40 call, knows his opponent will be given a huge lattitude to put his hands in his eyes, knows that if he even thinks about taking a backward step he will be put on the clock while other guys get to flee all the way across the mat with no consequences, etc. The whole affair is a mental beating. But the third match was just physical exhaustion. 

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The problem with this is viewpoint is that it fails to recognize how absurd our qualifying system is currently. Guys like Dake are getting screwed, so they have a very legitimate reason to whine. And as much as I have praised JB's mental toughness, the field is always titled in his favor during qualifying and he does not hestitate to take full advantage because he knows he will get away with it. I guess that is being smart. So Dake has to endure a direct physical disadvantage, knows he will lose every 50/50 and probably 60/40 call, knows his opponent will be given a huge lattitude to put his hands in his eyes, knows that if he even thinks about taking a backward step he will be put on the clock while other guys get to flee all the way across the mat with no consequences, etc. The whole affair is a mental beating. But the third match was just physical exhaustion.

Dake is not getting screwed. You can say that he's unlucky being the 2nd best wrestler in a system that only rewards the best. However, that's the game he signed up for.

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I don't know if we should scrap the whole qualification system or not, but I sure would like to see a match where Burroughs is penalized early and severely for punching Dake in the face...

Honestly though, these guys are soooo close it is almost certain that their matches will come down to Reffing and be controversial one way or another everytime.

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Also beat Sergei Beloglazov, who I consider one of the two or three best ever. It was an exhibition match and up a weight for Sergei, but that match showed me something.

 

Not to mention that Sergei had been retired from wrestling for more than a year (since the '88 Olympics) when the match happened. Smith had just won his fourth consecutive World gold less than eight weeks before that match took place.

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The problem with this is viewpoint is that it fails to recognize how absurd our qualifying system is currently. Guys like Dake are getting screwed, so they have a very legitimate reason to whine. And as much as I have praised JB's mental toughness, the field is always titled in his favor during qualifying and he does not hestitate to take full advantage because he knows he will get away with it. I guess that is being smart. So Dake has to endure a direct physical disadvantage, knows he will lose every 50/50 and probably 60/40 call, knows his opponent will be given a huge lattitude to put his hands in his eyes, knows that if he even thinks about taking a backward step he will be put on the clock while other guys get to flee all the way across the mat with no consequences, etc. The whole affair is a mental beating. But the third match was just physical exhaustion. 

 

What did Cary Kolat's dad always tell him? "You gotta be 10 points better than the referee."

 

For as much as I like Kyle Dake, I despise excuse making even more, especially if you already know you're at a disadvantage going into the match.

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Hey may match or beat the overall numbers but he can't do 6 in a row. Smith was magic without a lapse when it was all on the line. His signature move worked his entire freestyle career and only got better as time marched on. Burroughs blast double has slowed down and is now almost gone.

Burroughs is an all time great but John Smith is the greatest this nation has ever had. Six in a row and Master of Technique, Wrestler of the year even beats Baumgardner's haul of hardware.

Smith started getting his medals at a younger age. He was 27 in 92 and JB was 28 in 2016.

 

You can talk about JB slowing down but he still bounced back at 29 to win another gold and I still think the constant blood stoppages hurt his game in 16. You can say his double is his signature move but his constant reshots were/are just as dangerous.

 

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

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This whole Dake/Burroughs discussion tends to go around in a circle. 

 

Burroughs is a great champion, and part of his greatness is his mental toughness and his incredible desire to win. 

 

But that does not mean that the qualifying system we have is completely fair. It is the only qualifying system I have ever heard of that imposes a direct physical disadvantage on the challenger. When the margins are razor thin, when you are trying to unseat a champion like Burroughs, that is quite a hill to climb. That is not an excuse, that is a fact. The facts are unfair. Now I have also stated that with Dake he has had a tendency to let it get to him. But realistically how could it not get to him?

 

Because for me the natural consequence of a qualifying system that so emphasizes spot protection is that it effects the calls. Now a large part of that with Burroughs is that he is the champion. Like a champion boxer he is going to get the benefit; that's the way sports work. But part of that is the system itself. If you have qualifying where one side is being physically penalized, it is clear who the official favorite is. And that inevitably affects the calls down the line. The US Nationals match was a clear example imho. It is one thing to say "wrestle beyond the refs", but it is quite another when you have to do that against Burroughs. And Burroughs is smart. He knows he will get a lot of lattitude and he takes advantage. He knows he can get hands to the face. He knows Dake cannot take a backward step or the shot clock will immediately be imposed. 

 

In the end that's the system. And it is presumptuous to ever bet against a multi-time champion like Burroughs under any circumstances. But all I am suggesting is that in Dake trying to unseat Burroughs the field in qualifying is titled and that it is as much a psychological grind as a physical one. So I get any frustration a competitor like Dake has ever expressed. It is unfair to discount Burroughs in any way. But then again questioning Dake's mental toughness is unfair too. He has had quite the mountain to climb. 

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57 - Gilman (returning silver)

61 - Stieber (former world gold)

65 - Zain (still has a lot to proven in free)

70 - Green (2x world medalist)

74 - JB (enough said)

79 - Dake (1st world team but strong medal shot, possible gold)

86 - Taylor (1st world team but strong medal shot)

92 - Cox (2x world medalist)

97 - Snyder (enough said)

HWT - Gwiz (returning bronze)

 

If this is what the US's line up looks like next year, I feel really good about the future. 

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57 - Gilman (returning silver)

61 - Stieber (former world gold)

65 - Zain (still has a lot to proven in free)

70 - Green (2x world medalist)

74 - JB (enough said)

79 - Dake (1st world team but strong medal shot, possible gold)

86 - Taylor (1st world team but strong medal shot)

92 - Cox (2x world medalist)

97 - Snyder (enough said)

HWT - Gwiz (returning bronze)

 

If this is what the US's line up looks like next year, I feel really good about the future. 

Best team we have ever had!

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Best team we have ever had!

 

Only 3 guys who don't have medals to their names and 2 of those 3 have good shots to do it this year. Dare I say they are likely to it and I'd be more surprised if they didn't medal than if they did. 

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