Jump to content


Photo

Prep Nationals vs. State Tournaments


  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1 PSUMike

PSUMike

    Silver Member

  • Members
  • 1,149 posts

Posted 14 December 2017 - 02:33 AM

Just trying to get a feel as to how Prep Nationals is viewed when weighted against a state tournament in terms of overall quality of competition. We all recognize that different states are viewed in different lights. PA and OH are considered very strong. NJ and CA are one division states so that is given extra value. The entire south is known to be pretty weak. Where does Prep Nationals stack up in your mind?



#2 SBPCOACH

SBPCOACH
  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 14 December 2017 - 02:53 AM

I coach in NJ and one of the teams that participate at Prep Nationals. I honestly don't see a difference, could maybe be a little tougher as we have a plethora of kids at National Preps ranked in the country. As of late we have added teams from Texas, Tennessee and others are wanting to get in. Also, I want to say, just like any other tournament, depends on the weight class. But there are some tough kids and teams at National Preps. I have also been on the other side with my son participating in NJ States. I really don't see a difference. I've known some NJ State players that have made the move and not been able to replicate their performance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#3 gimpeltf

gimpeltf

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 5,275 posts

Posted 14 December 2017 - 02:59 AM

Depends what you mean here.

If you are looking at champs/finalists Preps ranks well with the top states. Given years probably equal. Generally not quite probably but competitive.

But the further down the line you go placewise, the quicker it drops off.

Blair and Sem (over the last half dozen or so years) are as good as any teams in the country. Typically a couple of other teams (McDonogh had a few great years-Myles Martin years for example) jump in there.



#4 PSUMike

PSUMike

    Silver Member

  • Members
  • 1,149 posts

Posted 14 December 2017 - 03:13 AM

Take the average weight and compare the overall quality vs. a given state. High level comparison always leads to outliers. Hell, even FL has a nationally ranked #1 guy. But the average state qualifier in PA is going to crush the vast majority of a FL bracket. I know Prep Nationals has some very high level guys but I'm talking overall. 



#5 Konquest

Konquest
  • Members
  • 97 posts

Posted 14 December 2017 - 07:53 AM

Stakes are higher in prep nationals.  For example, not too many state champs in Kansas or Oklahoma are going to get yachts and vacation homes in the Hamptons from their parents for winning a title, LOL.


  • Swayz likes this

#6 BigTenFanboy

BigTenFanboy

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 3,885 posts

Posted 14 December 2017 - 03:00 PM

National Prep champions are typically amongst the top wrestlers in the country and are often ahead of State champions including power houses like PA and Ohio. After the CHAMPS however, the drop off is considerable. Often times a 4th place finisher at NP wouldn't even qualify for states like PA and Ohio.

#7 PSUMike

PSUMike

    Silver Member

  • Members
  • 1,149 posts

Posted 15 December 2017 - 02:27 AM

National Prep champions are typically amongst the top wrestlers in the country and are often ahead of State champions including power houses like PA and Ohio. After the CHAMPS however, the drop off is considerable. Often times a 4th place finisher at NP wouldn't even qualify for states like PA and Ohio.

 

This is what I was getting at and looking for validation. It's still funny to me to see Wyoming Sem where they are. They are 15 minutes from my parents' house. When I was competing, they were a complete joke of a program. Then, around my sophomore year, they started sending out letters to the better local wrestlers, myself included, offering full scholarships to come and wrestle for them. Always left a bad taste in my mouth and I'll never support them. 



#8 BigTenFanboy

BigTenFanboy

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 3,885 posts

Posted 15 December 2017 - 10:55 AM

This is what I was getting at and looking for validation. It's still funny to me to see Wyoming Sem where they are. They are 15 minutes from my parents' house. When I was competing, they were a complete joke of a program. Then, around my sophomore year, they started sending out letters to the better local wrestlers, myself included, offering full scholarships to come and wrestle for them. Always left a bad taste in my mouth and I'll never support them.


I remember when Wyoming Seminary was no better than your average prep school team. Then almost overnight they became a powerhouse. They became one of the best teams money could buy...

#9 GRAPLER

GRAPLER

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 2,657 posts

Posted 26 December 2017 - 12:37 PM

Here is your real answer (like it or not)-

 

There are 50 states in the country....and almost every state has more than one "state" tournament (Virginia has 7 and Georgia has  6 6 - that's 13 in just those two states).

 

Let's say there are about 150  to 200 "state" championships in the country. In terms of quality and depth...the National Prep Tournament ranks easily in the top 10 of any measurable category.

So overall, it is harder, much harder  than a "state championship".

 

Now, let's specifically look at National Preps vs. PA or NJ - the states National Preps are most compared to (please keep in mind that the PIAA also has something called the "AA" state tournament which conveniently gets forgotten when judging the National Prep Tournament).

 

This month's Beast of the East featured most of the best National Prep Schools, along with many of the top PIAA and NJ schools (note: many good teams from all three also do not go to The Beast, including Wyoming Seminary). Here are your top 11 finishing teams from this month:

 

1. Blair Academy (Nat Preps)

2. Bergen Catholic (NJ)
3. Lake Highland Prep (FL)

4. Delbarton (NJ)
5. Brecksville (OH)

6. Malvern Prep (Nat Preps)

7. Pope John XXIII (NJ)

8. St. Paul's (Nat Preps)

9. Mt. St. Joe's (Nat Preps)

9. Bethlehem Catholic (PA)

11. McDonogh (Nat  Preps)

 

The realty is that, right now, perhaps the top two teams in the PIAA 3A (Bethlehem Catholic and Nazareth) would not be a top 5 team in National Preps. Blair, Wyoming Seminary, Malvern, St. Paul's, Mt. St. Joe's, and maybe others (like McDonogh) would all beat them. Even if I am wrong, which the results don't seem to indicate, your statement about the 4th place finisher not going to states is just not adding up. I used one, recent example, but there is a ton of similar data.

 

FYI, I wrestled in the PIAA 3A, but I can see what is in front of me.



#10 BigTenFanboy

BigTenFanboy

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 3,885 posts

Posted 26 December 2017 - 03:17 PM

Here is your real answer (like it or not)-

There are 50 states in the country....and almost every state has more than one "state" tournament (Virginia has 7 and Georgia has 6 6 - that's 13 in just those two states).

Let's say there are about 150 to 200 "state" championships in the country. In terms of quality and depth...the National Prep Tournament ranks easily in the top 10 of any measurable category.

So overall, it is harder, much harder than a "state championship".

Now, let's specifically look at National Preps vs. PA or NJ - the states National Preps are most compared to (please keep in mind that the PIAA also has something called the "AA" state tournament which conveniently gets forgotten when judging the National Prep Tournament).

This month's Beast of the East featured most of the best National Prep Schools, along with many of the top PIAA and NJ schools (note: many good teams from all three also do not go to The Beast, including Wyoming Seminary). Here are your top 11 finishing teams from this month:

1. Blair Academy (Nat Preps)
2. Bergen Catholic (NJ)
3. Lake Highland Prep (FL)
4. Delbarton (NJ)
5. Brecksville (OH)
6. Malvern Prep (Nat Preps)
7. Pope John XXIII (NJ)
8. St. Paul's (Nat Preps)
9. Mt. St. Joe's (Nat Preps)
9. Bethlehem Catholic (PA)
11. McDonogh (Nat Preps)

The realty is that, right now, perhaps the top two teams in the PIAA 3A (Bethlehem Catholic and Nazareth) would not be a top 5 team in National Preps. Blair, Wyoming Seminary, Malvern, St. Paul's, Mt. St. Joe's, and maybe others (like McDonogh) would all beat them. Even if I am wrong, which the results don't seem to indicate, your statement about the 4th place finisher not going to states is just not adding up. I used one, recent example, but there is a ton of similar data.

FYI, I wrestled in the PIAA 3A, but I can see what is in front of me.

I didnt make the statement regarding the 4th place finisher at Preps as a definitive final statement, however historically speaking this is generally true. As for comparing how teams compare vs individuals it's not an apples to apples comparison. Personally I believe that the individual prep champs are usually better than the PA AAA or AA champs. At the same time I dont believe the Prep 3rd place finishers are better than the PA AAA 3rd place finishers. In a team setting I believe that top level prep teams beat out top level PIAA teams. Furthmore up until recently National Preps was all Blair and no one else really. The emergence of Wyoming Seminary and Malvern Prep is relatively recent and has added considerable depth to the National Prep scene that honestly was not there 5-10 years ago. Super teams like Easton and Northampton are shells of their former selves. We dont see multiple super teams in PA like we used to.

Edited by BigTenFanboy, 26 December 2017 - 03:32 PM.


#11 GRAPLER

GRAPLER

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 2,657 posts

Posted 27 December 2017 - 03:06 PM

Maybe you only started paying more attention to National Preps since the Pa Prep schools that go to National Preps have gotten better? The reality is that National Prep wrestling has been very competitive for a long time...and until Wyoming Seminary (and now Malvern Prep) have been Nationally ranked...people in PA (where the tournament is held) have mistakenly thought it was mainly Blair.

 

I look up the final National High School Team rankings from 10 seasons ago. Three of the top 15 teams were, again, National Prep Schools....and none of them were Wyoming Seminary or Malvern Prep. Here are your top 15 teams from 10 years ago - 

 

1. St. Paris Graham (Ohio)

2. Blair Academy (Nat Preps)

3. Apple Valley (Minn)

4. Waverly-Shell Rock (Iowa)

5. St. Edward (Ohio)

6. Central Dauphin (PA)

7. Montini Catholic (IL)

8. Iowa City West (IA)

9. Oak Park (MO)

10. Glenbard North (IL)

11. Easton (PA)

12. Colonial Forge (VA)

13. McDonogh (Nat Preps)

14. Poway (CA)

15. Bishop Lynch (Nat Preps)

 

Also, for several years (about 15 years ago) Bishop Lynch was a top 5 team nationally and made a real push at Blair at least once at the National Prep Tournament.

 

Take a state like Virginia - seven state tournaments - and two of the top five teams (all classifications combined) go to National Preps (St. Christopher's and Benedictine). These teams will both not likely break the top five at National Preps, and if they do that means they'll go through Nationally ranked teams like Blair, Wyoming Sem, Malvern, St. Paul's, McDonogh, Mt. St. Joe's, etc. The same is true in Tennessee (3 state classifications). What then does it say about the Virginia and Tennessee State Tournaments? Perhaps the #1 and #2 teams statewide are maybe not breaking the top 10 at National Preps?

 

Here is the original question posted in this thread, "Just trying to get a feel as to how Prep Nationals is viewed when weighted against a state tournament in terms of overall quality of competition." The answer is pretty obvious.


Edited by GRAPLER, 27 December 2017 - 03:10 PM.


#12 BigTenFanboy

BigTenFanboy

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 3,885 posts

Posted 27 December 2017 - 03:42 PM

Maybe you only started paying more attention to National Preps since the Pa Prep schools that go to National Preps have gotten better? The reality is that National Prep wrestling has been very competitive for a long time...and until Wyoming Seminary (and now Malvern Prep) have been Nationally ranked...people in PA (where the tournament is held) have mistakenly thought it was mainly Blair.

I look up the final National High School Team rankings from 10 seasons ago. Three of the top 15 teams were, again, National Prep Schools....and none of them were Wyoming Seminary or Malvern Prep. Here are your top 15 teams from 10 years ago -

1. St. Paris Graham (Ohio)
2. Blair Academy (Nat Preps)
3. Apple Valley (Minn)
4. Waverly-Shell Rock (Iowa)
5. St. Edward (Ohio)
6. Central Dauphin (PA)
7. Montini Catholic (IL)
8. Iowa City West (IA)
9. Oak Park (MO)
10. Glenbard North (IL)
11. Easton (PA)
12. Colonial Forge (VA)
13. McDonogh (Nat Preps)
14. Poway (CA)
15. Bishop Lynch (Nat Preps)

Also, for several years (about 15 years ago) Bishop Lynch was a top 5 team nationally and made a real push at Blair at least once at the National Prep Tournament.

Take a state like Virginia - seven state tournaments - and two of the top five teams (all classifications combined) go to National Preps (St. Christopher's and Benedictine). These teams will both not likely break the top five at National Preps, and if they do that means they'll go through Nationally ranked teams like Blair, Wyoming Sem, Malvern, St. Paul's, McDonogh, Mt. St. Joe's, etc. The same is true in Tennessee (3 state classifications). What then does it say about the Virginia and Tennessee State Tournaments? Perhaps the #1 and #2 teams statewide are maybe not breaking the top 10 at National Preps?

Here is the original question posted in this thread, "Just trying to get a feel as to how Prep Nationals is viewed when weighted against a state tournament in terms of overall quality of competition." The answer is pretty obvious.

I have been following the National Prep scene for over 25 years. I am well aware of where their teams and the tournament stands. You seem to take exception to my view that the tournament does not have the depth that PA AAA has. If you do not, i apologize in advance for misinterpreting your point of view. That is an opinion of mine. I also believe that the National Prep tournament is tougher than most HS state tournaments. I believe the CHAMPS are better than most PA State CHAMPS. However I also believe that PA 3rd place finishers are better than Prep 3rd place finishers. I absolutely believe PA 8th place finishers beat the pants off Prep 8th place finishers. I have known a few Prep placers over the years that were very good wrestlers but probably would not have qualified for the Pa state tournament. Furthermore it is MUCH easier to qualify for the Prep tournamnet than it is to qualofy for the PIAA tournamnet either class. I rememebr years ago when the Prep Torunamnet didnt have qualifiers and had a follow the leader type format for wrestle backs. I am very familiar with prep school's outside of the traditional powers like Blair and Wyoming Sem. I rememeber when the Hill school and Germantown Academy were typically in the running for 2nd place (behind Blair) and when the Philadelphia Catholic League had wrestlers in National Preps. National Preps is a very tough tournament but again to address the original post I think it's a fair assessment to say it's champs are on par if not better than the champs of Pa. The depth of the rest of the place finishers goes to PA. Now compared to Va or Tennesse, National preps beats them hands down without question.

You mention a lot of great prep teams but again a more fair comparison would be looking at the individual brackets and see how place finishers stack up. Also take a look at top level talented wrestlers that failed to place at either.

Furthermore after the top 5 teams at National Preps there seems to be a steeper drop off than from PA states. I'm of the opinion that in most seasons a 10th place PA team wpuld beat a 10th place prep team in a dual more times than not...

Edited by BigTenFanboy, 27 December 2017 - 03:46 PM.


#13 GRAPLER

GRAPLER

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 2,657 posts

Posted 28 December 2017 - 01:14 AM

"You seem to take exception to my view that the tournament does not have the depth that PA AAA has. If you do not, i apologize in advance for misinterpreting your point of view."

 

Thanks for the apology - this is not my viewpoint, although I think you'd be surprised at how close and 8th vs. 8th match would be.

 

Here is my actual viewpoint - look at the original question - National Preps vs. "a state tournament". There are probably about 400 state tournaments every year in the 50 states (give or take). How does National Preps compare? 

 

Of the 400 or so state tournaments, I think every can agree that the PIAA AAA is maybe the toughest one of those 400 tournaments (certainly in depth) or at the very least in the top two or three. Somehow, that is the only state tournament (with the exception of sometimes NJ) that gets compared to National Preps....and then the view is - National Preps has less depth than "a" state tournament.

The reality is that National Preps has way more depth than 99% of all state tournaments, only falling very slightly short to the top 1,2, or 3 out of about 400.
 


Edited by GRAPLER, 28 December 2017 - 01:15 AM.


#14 BigTenFanboy

BigTenFanboy

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 3,885 posts

Posted 28 December 2017 - 04:42 AM

"You seem to take exception to my view that the tournament does not have the depth that PA AAA has. If you do not, i apologize in advance for misinterpreting your point of view."

 

Thanks for the apology - this is not my viewpoint, although I think you'd be surprised at how close and 8th vs. 8th match would be.

 

Here is my actual viewpoint - look at the original question - National Preps vs. "a state tournament". There are probably about 400 state tournaments every year in the 50 states (give or take). How does National Preps compare? 

 

Of the 400 or so state tournaments, I think every can agree that the PIAA AAA is maybe the toughest one of those 400 tournaments (certainly in depth) or at the very least in the top two or three. Somehow, that is the only state tournament (with the exception of sometimes NJ) that gets compared to National Preps....and then the view is - National Preps has less depth than "a" state tournament.

The reality is that National Preps has way more depth than 99% of all state tournaments, only falling very slightly short to the top 1,2, or 3 out of about 400.
 

 

 

I would agree with this. The National Prep Tournament is definitely within the top 5 Post season high school tournaments in the country.



#15 KTG119

KTG119

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 2,107 posts

Posted 28 December 2017 - 07:14 AM

^it will vary from year to year but in this era I'd have it regularly top 10, many of those years close to or in top 5.

 

PS as Virginia and it's 7 tournaments have been mentioned a few times....ugh....I HATE what the VHSL has done in that regard (6 of them anyway being VHSL). I'm ok with 6 for dual meet tourney if they want to bring that back (though 3-4 is probably sufficient) and ideally 1 state tournament to crown individual champs.   



#16 TobusRex

TobusRex

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 3,113 posts

Posted 28 December 2017 - 01:07 PM

Private schools have a huge unfair advantage, especially since the top private schools recruit kids nationally. How many kids wrestling for Blair are even from New Jersey?


Edited by TobusRex, 28 December 2017 - 01:09 PM.


#17 BigTenFanboy

BigTenFanboy

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 3,885 posts

Posted 29 December 2017 - 05:18 PM

Private schools have a huge unfair advantage, especially since the top private schools recruit kids nationally. How many kids wrestling for Blair are even from New Jersey?


Which is why I don't take National Preps having multiple nationally ranked teams in defining the depth of the tournament when compared to Pa's state tournament. The top talent is more heavily concentrated amongst a few teams where as the PA tournament has its individuals spead out across many more schools.

#18 GRAPLER

GRAPLER

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 2,657 posts

Posted 30 December 2017 - 04:00 AM

Big Ten - What you said is true...however, it doesn't mean that there isn't also a good deal of depth at National Preps. I agree that the PIAA Class 3A has the most depth....but compared to virtually every other state tournament, National Preps has more depth too.

 

There are 10 Regions within National Preps - and a total of over 200 schools (not every school will have a qualifier each year). So you will still have some good wrestlers at National Preps who will be the only kid who qualified from their school. It's not just 10 super teams battling it out. However, the concentration of the top teams is very obvious (as they are recruiting juggernauts).

 

As far as being a National Prep Qualifier (I guess I am falling into the vs. PIAA 3A trap here) - it's going to be easier to qualify for a couple of reasons - 1) it's a 32 wrestler bracket vs. only a 20 wrestler bracket at the PIAA 3A. If the PIAA 3A moved to a 32 wrestler bracket, it would also be easier to qualify in than it is now. 2) the qualifiers are more varied at National Preps - for example the New England Prep Region (consisting of about 50 Prep Schools) sends the top 6 to National Preps. The 5th and 6th place finisher at New England Preps will not place at National Preps and will likely go 0-2. This is true at almost every weight class every year. Alternatively, Tennessee gets only 1 automatic qualifier (that is changing soon) out of 30 teams. The Tennessee qualifier is going to be very tough to beat...regardless of where he is in the tournament.  In the PIAA, at least to a degree, the 5 Regions are somewhat similar in the quality and depth of the qualifiers.



#19 BigTenFanboy

BigTenFanboy

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 3,885 posts

Posted 30 December 2017 - 06:10 AM

Big Ten - What you said is true...however, it doesn't mean that there isn't also a good deal of depth at National Preps. I agree that the PIAA Class 3A has the most depth....but compared to virtually every other state tournament, National Preps has more depth too.

There are 10 Regions within National Preps - and a total of over 200 schools (not every school will have a qualifier each year). So you will still have some good wrestlers at National Preps who will be the only kid who qualified from their school. It's not just 10 super teams battling it out. However, the concentration of the top teams is very obvious (as they are recruiting juggernauts).

As far as being a National Prep Qualifier (I guess I am falling into the vs. PIAA 3A trap here) - it's going to be easier to qualify for a couple of reasons - 1) it's a 32 wrestler bracket vs. only a 20 wrestler bracket at the PIAA 3A. If the PIAA 3A moved to a 32 wrestler bracket, it would also be easier to qualify in than it is now. 2) the qualifiers are more varied at National Preps - for example the New England Prep Region (consisting of about 50 Prep Schools) sends the top 6 to National Preps. The 5th and 6th place finisher at New England Preps will not place at National Preps and will likely go 0-2. This is true at almost every weight class every year. Alternatively, Tennessee gets only 1 automatic qualifier (that is changing soon) out of 30 teams. The Tennessee qualifier is going to be very tough to beat...regardless of where he is in the tournament. In the PIAA, at least to a degree, the 5 Regions are somewhat similar in the quality and depth of the qualifiers.

Nothing I wrote is ment to be a knock against the National Prep tournament. I am comparing it to quite possibly the toughest HS state tournament in the country which is what the original post was asking. Yes National Preps is a very tough tournamnet and amongst the top post season tournaments in the country. It's champs are arguably the very best in the country. It's better and deeper than 95% of of the state tournaments in the country. I'll even say it's tougher to Win National Preps vs PA AAA, but it's easier to qualify and place.

Edited by BigTenFanboy, 30 December 2017 - 06:12 AM.


#20 PSUMike

PSUMike

    Silver Member

  • Members
  • 1,149 posts

Posted 31 December 2017 - 05:10 AM

Private schools have a huge unfair advantage, especially since the top private schools recruit kids nationally. How many kids wrestling for Blair are even from New Jersey?

 

Just like I said here:

 

It's still funny to me to see Wyoming Sem where they are. They are 15 minutes from my parents' house. When I was competing, they were a complete joke of a program. Then, around my sophomore year, they started sending out letters to the better local wrestlers, myself included, offering full scholarships to come and wrestle for them. Always left a bad taste in my mouth and I'll never support them. 

 

Their first season of real success (read as: they weren't a total joke) was my senior year, 05-06. They had other good wrestlers, mostly lightweights, but McMullen was the one of whom I took notice. McMullen was a freshman that year and wrestled 215. I was a weight below but wrestled up a lot if the opposing team had a good 215er. He was giving some damn good local 215ers problems and sometimes edging them out, a lot of the same guys I went against so naturally I took notice. I was wondering where the hell this kid came from and then I found out he was a Lehigh Valley guy who was recruited to come up to Sem. Now that have 2 assistant coaches who were NCAA qualifiers and successful D1 wrestlers in Steve Mytych and Joe Rovelli. This is a prime example of why, top to bottom, public schools aren't able to compete with them. They have the resources to bring in good recruits and coaches. 






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users