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SPENCER LEE GOES DOWN

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Cletus, it is just interesting that anytime something could possibly be seen as negative, hell even positive, about the Iowa program, you come out and share your opinion of the terrible shape of the program and the coaches. Pretty committed really for someone who consistently says he has no dog in the fight, but has a slight distaste for the Iowa program

 

Lee lost his true freshman year. It doesn't mean that hes not elite now. Snyder, hall, sanderson, all lost their freshman year. It's not an inexcusable offense to take a loss as a true freshman, even for an elite one. Everyone knows that.

 

You guys just get your jollies off too much creating a narrative about the doom of the program, especially if lee doesn't pan out(which to you must mean fail to be undefeated 4x ncaa champ for Lee). What if Warner meets expectations? What if Marinielli does? Hell, what about the fantastic job done with Wilke who was not a big time recruit. Too many variables other than just,"Iowa says its had a great lightweight room, so Lee needs to be great."

 

I realize none of those things will fit the narrative that you love to run with over and over and over.

 

 

I am on record as saying I welcome any and all feedback and even criticism on these boards.  I believe it's why we post here.   We share ideas and perspectives and the dynamic serves to in many cases enrich the experience of the season.   I view it as a good thing.    But russelscout in this case, I STRONGLY resent the implication of a bias against the University of Iowa.     I'm not out to get the Hawks.  I don't have it in for them.     In fact I have lots of friends who are big fans of the program.   

 

*Am I guilty of demanding the excellence Gable and Zalesky took them to?     

*Do I expect their guys to do it right and to leave it all on the mat?   

*Do I hold them to a high standard?   

 

You bet your candy *** I do and I make no apologies for that.    

 

As Iowa goes, so does much of the fan base and so does a portion of NCAA wrestling go.    I WANT Iowa to be great!  I want Iowa to rise up.   I am sick and tired of reading the excuses being made on this board for the Hawks diminishing return on the mat.   

 

I will not hold it against Lee if he doesn't result in a 4 time undefeated champ.     In fact, if he wins 2 and loses less than 10 times, I will view it as at or possibly even above my expectations.      I want him to do well.    He did well yesterday.  But to pull hi out and coddle him to a MFF, that's not what the program needs and it's not a good look for our beloved sport.        I realize many of you hold a much lower standard for Iowa and that's fine.   But don't fault me for being on the opposite end of the spectrum.      You'd be shocked the level I expect from Cael's team (hint: it's much higher than the team in Iowa City).      Does that make me a Penn State hater?          

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I am on record as saying I welcome any and all feedback and even criticism on these boards. I believe it's why we post here. We share ideas and perspectives and the dynamic serves to in many cases enrich the experience of the season. I view it as a good thing. But russelscout in this case, I STRONGLY resent the implication of a bias against the University of Iowa. I'm not out to get the Hawks. I don't have it in for them. In fact I have lots of friends who are big fans of the program.

 

*Am I guilty of demanding the excellence Gable and Zalesky took them to?

*Do I expect their guys to do it right and to leave it all on the mat?

*Do I hold them to a high standard?

 

You bet your candy *** I do and I make no apologies for that.

 

As Iowa goes, so does much of the fan base and so does a portion of NCAA wrestling go. I WANT Iowa to be great! I want Iowa to rise up. I am sick and tired of reading the excuses being made on this board for the Hawks diminishing return on the mat.

 

I will not hold it against Lee if he doesn't result in a 4 time undefeated champ. In fact, if he wins 2 and loses less than 10 times, I will view it as at or possibly even above my expectations. I want him to do well. He did well yesterday. But to pull hi out and coddle him to a MFF, that's not what the program needs and it's not a good look for our beloved sport. I realize many of you hold a much lower standard for Iowa and that's fine. But don't fault me for being on the opposite end of the spectrum. You'd be shocked the level I expect from Cael's team (hint: it's much higher than the team in Iowa City). Does that make me a Penn State hater?

Cletus, your analysis of Iowa is spot on! If the Iowa faithful don’t start taking your approach during this great rebuilding era then they will never make it back to the top! Let’s hope we begin to see a turnaround in Iowa City. I’m tired of seeing them struggle and fight tooth and nail just to scrape by with a 4th place finish in March. It’s been almost a decade since we last saw that spark.

 

I think they can possibly make some noise in March and possibly crack the top 5 this year. They will need to convince PD3 to wrestle for them and pull Lee’s redshirt to do it though

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I have told this story before...so apologies to all my mat.com veterans who have heard this before.

 

During Varner’s isu senior season I went to only 2 college tournaments — big 12’s and midlands.

 

Varner loses to Dallas herbst in midlands finals and goes on to lose to the Nebraska kid in big 12 finals (I can never remember his name from Nebraska because he had no talent)

 

Those were varner’s only losses in final two years (I think anyway)

 

I was varners worst fan that year from his perspective. I did make it a point to pat him on back after each telling him better things will soon come.

 

PS. I know the Nebraska kids name (Craig Brester) but I always like to tell the story as above to wake up all my Nebraska friends.

 

I never watched another Varner match live in person :-)

 

Happy new year everyone (including my many Nebraska friends of which I do respect deeply)

 

Varner was 31-0 as a senior.    He also won the WTT and went unscored on.    He may have shut out the field at NCAA's too.    I'm going from memory and that's a little foggy.      He was a Hodge finalist and clearly the very best wrestler in college.    After winning his Olympic gold medal, many pointed to that Hodge won by a guy fighting off his back at NCAA's to scrape by with the most narrow of wins, and they agree Varner was head and shoulders a better (and also undefeated) wrestler.   

 

I do concede your story  sounds better with the two losses and giving Varner a pat on the back.    I love those types of endings, but don't the Nebraska fans correct you about Varner not being undefeated?    

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Varner was 31-0 as a senior.    He also won the WTT and went unscored on.    He may have shut out the field at NCAA's too.    I'm going from memory and that's a little foggy.      He was a Hodge finalist and clearly the very best wrestler in college.    After winning his Olympic gold medal, many pointed to that Hodge won by a guy fighting off his back at NCAA's to scrape by with the most narrow of wins, and they agree Varner was head and shoulders a better (and also undefeated) wrestler.   

 

I do concede your story  sounds better with the two losses and giving Varner a pat on the back.    I love those types of endings, but don't the Nebraska fans correct you about Varner not being undefeated?    

 

Correct - Varner ran the table his senior year, beating Brester 5-2 in both the Big-12 and NCAA finals.  He also beat Wynn Michalak that year in the Midlands final, 6-1.  (Xander confused Varner's senior year with his junior year, when the two matches he related occurred.)

 

On a side note, it's disconcerting to see a multiple-time Junior World Champ regressing under the tutelage of Tom Brands. First, he's beaten by a "blue haired, tatted up, staller from the liberal hippy dope capital of the world."*  Then he ducks the remaining competition for a sixth-place finish in his Midlands debut.  Hopefully, Tommy can regroup and start turning things around in Iowa City before he's given the boot ala Zalesky.  It's be a shame to deprive wrestling fans of his entertaining mat-side antics.

 

* Tip of the hat to WrestlingFan89 for the colorful description of Bresser.

Edited by HurricaneWrestling

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I had a long conversation this morning with a former Hawk and close friend.  He tells me Brands had everything riding on Lee and "the loss could sink the ship".    He's telling me they're going to pull the shirt!    Now this makes no logical sense other than in the context my buddy described it.     Either they erase the image of Lee held to a single point by a non AA and failing to place even top 5, or there will be changes sooner than any of us expect.    I'm not prepared to say they're pulling the shirt, but this guy is an insider and has never been wrong with his inside scoops.   

 

I guess I'm on the train of the shirt gets pulled on Lee soon as they regroup and lick their wounds a little bit.   Can it be???

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I had a long conversation this morning with a former Hawk and close friend.  He tells me Brands had everything riding on Lee and "the loss could sink the ship".    He's telling me they're going to pull the shirt!    Now this makes no logical sense other than in the context my buddy described it.     Either they erase the image of Lee held to a single point by a non AA and failing to place even top 5, or there will be changes sooner than any of us expect.    I'm not prepared to say they're pulling the shirt, but this guy is an insider and has never been wrong with his inside scoops.   

 

I guess I'm on the train of the shirt gets pulled on Lee soon as they regroup and lick their wounds a little bit.   Can it be???

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Cletus, your analysis of Iowa is spot on! If the Iowa faithful don’t start taking your approach during this great rebuilding era then they will never make it back to the top! Let’s hope we begin to see a turnaround in Iowa City. I’m tired of seeing them struggle and fight tooth and nail just to scrape by with a 4th place finish in March. It’s been almost a decade since we last saw that spark.

 

I think they can possibly make some noise in March and possibly crack the top 5 this year. They will need to convince PD3 to wrestle for them and pull Lee’s redshirt to do it though

 

 

I've just read the confirmation Spencer Lee's shirt has been pulled.    He will be a Hawk and competing for the team.   One has to ask why though. 

 

Iowa is just not a threat this season and conventional wisdom is to leave it on him and load the team up for the future.    

Lee just got beat and to make matters worse, he was held to a single point.  

Brands may have knee jerk reacted when he pulled Lee from the wrestle backs but he did it none the less.   Lee competing for Iowa this season appeared a lost cause.

 

But then out of the blue, they pull the shirt.   Why?   

 

Some have speculated they need to get this Lee thing right.   They can't fumble it and put the look out there that  the program is fading and that they are no longer effective.      Could the pressure of the hot seat been so great, they figure they may as well pull the shirt and go down in a heap if they fail but at least go down swinging?   Is this a last ditch effort by Brands to stay alive in Iowa?     Is it short sighted and selfish?   I don't have those answers but I will say this feels a whole heck of a lot better than 6th at Midlands.    

 

Spencer Lee is now set up to either fail big or smash failure and redeem himself on the biggest stage.    

 

They are saying Nato is back

Suriano looks like the cream of the division

Cruz looks in post season form, very slick

Bresser just held hin to a single point and bumped him into the losers bracket

Rivera looks very tough

 

and several others who have impressed thus far.     Lee could conceivably fail to  get on the medal stand and Iowa would be looking at a disaster.   But kudos to them willing to take the chance.       The season just got more exciting.         Kudos to Brands and Lee for accepting the challenge.   I hereby release them from the shame they of tucking tail and fleeing from the Midlands.    Now there's a shot at redemption.       

 

 

Lets go Hawks! 

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But then out of the blue, they pull the shirt.   Why?   

 

 

 

I'm guessing might also be for the dual season, as well as Lee wants to compete.  Without Lee they might end up with a pretty pathetic dual record (look at Iowa v IL, if Black had been cleared to go Iowa losses & almost did anyway @ CHA).  With Lee they have a chance to beat say OSU in a dual.  It'd really be a bad year finishing 6 to 10 and losing 5 dual meets.

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Done that for other things--kinda sucks.  

Your mistake was assuming they both would make it to the finals. That was a nice bet, unfortunately it didn't work out for you this time. But with this storyline, we all sort of have a barometer for comparing Suriano, Fix and Lee. And the outcome for each is razor thin, all decided within the last seconds of each match. Personally, that call on Bresser vs Suriano, the stalling or fleeing the mat one, that sort of sucked. Ref should have called stalemate or out of bounds.  I think we all wanted overtime in that match. 

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I had a long conversation this morning with a former Hawk and close friend.  He tells me Brands had everything riding on Lee and "the loss could sink the ship".    He's telling me they're going to pull the shirt!    Now this makes no logical sense other than in the context my buddy described it.     Either they erase the image of Lee held to a single point by a non AA and failing to place even top 5, or there will be changes sooner than any of us expect.    I'm not prepared to say they're pulling the shirt, but this guy is an insider and has never been wrong with his inside scoops.   

 

I guess I'm on the train of the shirt gets pulled on Lee soon as they regroup and lick their wounds a little bit.   Can it be???

 

Are true freshmen not allowed to just have a bad match every now and then?  If that was really the issue they could have just had him come back to wrestle for third and use that to get the bad taste out of their mouths.  The kid had just teched a returning AA, I think he probably had it in him to win a couple of matches on the backside.

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Are true freshmen not allowed to just have a bad match every now and then?  If that was really the issue they could have just had him come back to wrestle for third and use that to get the bad taste out of their mouths.  The kid had just teched a returning AA, I think he probably had it in him to win a couple of matches on the backside.

 

It's difficult to read what's allowed and what's not acceptable from a true frosh when trying to understand some of these coaches.   Do I allow Lee to lose if I'm the coach?   Sure, if there's better guys out there than him, I want him running into them and i want to close the gap with these guys,eventually beat them when it really counts.   But  I'm not on the hot seat and I don't have to worry about having my star underachieve and deliver another disappointment to the fan base.    What do I do if I'm in charge?    I let him wrestle in the consolation round and I see if he can find his way back to 3rd.      I also don't pull the shirt and I don't rush him out there with that huge brace on his knee.    But again, I'm not on the hot seat.  

 

*Lee is out there wrestling with a huge brace.   Why?

*Lee gets beat and drops out of the consolation.  Why?

*Lee appears to be headed to red shirt and it suddenly gets pulled.   Again, why? 

 

Trying to reason and use conventional logic isn't working here in understanding or predicting what Brands is going to do.    I have to believe his actions are designed to save his job.    I had an alum tell me this morning this is the case.       

 

To your point above, I know Lee had just teched an AA.  He had also just been held to 1 point by a non AA.   Not a lot makes sense from this entire situation.    I am at a loss of what Brands makes of it.  

 

 

He's wrestling and I think it's all wrong.   But i like it none the less.    I hope he's not hurt and he performs his best.  If that's not good enough to AA, I'm ok with that.   If it gets him on the podium on any of the steps, I'm fine with that too.    Now that's he's competing for the team, I just want to see him wrestle.  

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I cannot say enough how much I love the theory that Lee's shirt is being pulled to let the world know he's better than 6th at Midlands. That is pure genius!!

 

Cletus, please do the human race a solid and get into cancer research. I implore you.

 

Nerd, I'm just an old, broken down  guy making my final rounds on the farm and hoping to see greatness a few more times before the man upstairs calls me for judgment and they bury me out back by the hog pens.        Just dump me in a hole and don't miss a step.   Maybe the Mexicans take a half day off  paid on the clock and say a few words about me in that Spanglish they use.    With one swift scoop from the back hoe, rip a trench in the ground and drop me in, no casket required.    Cervesas for all of them and a Tijuana style git down to send me off.    

 

I don't want to cure cancer or save the world, Nerd.     I have a special place I've developed for Lee and I refuse to stand by while buzzards nip at what many were making out to be his carcass.  The interesting thing here is some believe i am anti Iowa.  The truth is the majority of my wrestling buddies are Iowa guys.  There's me and a couple others who ride hard for the Scrappy Mocs and then there's several teams I like based on their coaches or some individuals.    

 

I'm just a simple guy who's made it nearly the entire length of the proverbial time line.    If I go tomorrow, I got to see Lee light it up at Midlands.        I'm ok with that.   

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Looked again at the Bresser match. The first five minutes (less 12 seconds) were all on their feet. Lee took one shot and it was a weak one. That's weird. Maybe it was because he could not convince Bresser to stand still.

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Looked again at the Bresser match. The first five minutes (less 12 seconds) were all on their feet. Lee took one shot and it was a weak one. That's weird. Maybe it was because he could not convince Bresser to stand still.

Bresser is quite the dancer. Maybe we can as a wrestling community can get him on Dancing With The Stars!

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Abdullah, free is amazing.   Free is unbelievable.    

 

But folk is alpha.    Folk = free daddy.      Grand daddy to free = folk     It is apple cider and orange juice.   

 

Free 2 time cadet world and 1 time junior world = folk 6th at Midlands.       

 

 

Abdullah this is the reality of free vs folk.   

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