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#41 JohnnyThompsonnum1

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 03:09 AM

I appreciate the passion, and your research. The challenges to SEC wrestling are many. Smaller divisions or NAIA can add the sport because it helps bring in more potential students who will pay 12-15K year for tuition.

The biggest issues for the SEC are related to travel and a lack of built in wrestling culture in most of those states. I highly doubt they would add a sport where only 4 or 5 teams field teams, so it is probably an all or nothing proposition.

In the Mid-Atlantic, East and most of the Midwest, teams can hop on a bus and drive to any number of other D1 programs within a few hours. That would not be the case for any of those states.

Our biggest push should be to increase more opportunities in the west, where we already have some programs.





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I'd be all for that.  

UCLA, Arizona, Oregon, Washington, California, Washington State, Utah, Colorado, Cal State Fullerton, UC Davis, San Diego State and Boise State all reinstating their wrestling programs. USC having for the first time in its history a varsity wrestling program.  Can you imagine that?  The PAC-12 along with Stanford, Arizona State, Cal Poly, Bakersfield and Oregon State, being 18 teams.  That'd be awesome.  Many of these schools have programs in the NCWA and Fresno State is showing the need both from a participation and fan perspective for wrestling in California. 

UNLV recently developed a NCWA team themselves. Love to see wrestling back at UNLV. 

It'd be nice for Utah Valley to have some in state competition with not only the reinstatement of Utah, but also Utah State, Brigham Young, and Weber State.  If the state is producing wrestlers like Cael Sanderson and Ryan Lewis, it'd be nice if they had more opportunities to wrestle at home. 

Wrestling in the west coast? I'm all for it. 

That's my opinion, for what it's apparently not worth. 


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"Gable said something in the newspapers to the effect that he had to show up on the podium and accept defeat like he accepted winning. Personally, I think that's the mark of a true sportsman. Such antics as having to be called repeatedly to the awards podium, hopping down prematurely, trashing one's medal at the venue, etc., don't show how much a guy hates to lose, etc. Taking a loss like a man, then coming back to compete harder (again like Gable did) does." Hurricanewrestling

#42 RichB

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 06:16 AM

I forgot to mention the main point about Georgia Tech, that it is 73% male undergrad. possibly the highest percentage in D1 except the Service and Military Schools.

 

Clemson is always talked about as on the verge of bringing back wrestling. If those 2 Schools reinstated it would give a nearby competitor. Plus Citadel and Gardner-Webb are also nearby in South Carolina..U of Tennessee is in Knoxville  Far East part of State, within a bus ride of most of the NC schools, Va Tech, and of course UTC. If somehow we were able to establish an Expansion program into the South, I think those five schools, (Ga, GaTech, SC, Clemson, Tenn) they would be the logical targets.

 

After many years of financial mismanagement in California, the state has been in the Black the last few years. I suppose  a lot would depend on the new governor.

 

It looks like when Cal Baptist reaches D1, their will be 15 public Universities, and 9 private.

 

-----------------------------

 

To me, and I think to any logical person, any state's flagship Public University, should sponsor, as a minimum, every sport totally sported by that state's HS athletic. I don't know who does that. OhSU might. PennState has all the fully sponsored sports except Competitive Cheer     



#43 TobusRex

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 05:34 PM

I have said it once and I will say it again, the rest of the nation had best be happy that the Southeastern Conference does not have wrestling.

1.  They make more money each year than all the other conferences and have the very best facilities.

2.  If they ever decide to get back into NCAA D1 Wrestling they will hire the best coaches (they have more money) and be able to recruit the best athletes.

3.  Never forget that those big 6'5" and 325lb lineman that are great athletes and can run have younger brother and cousins that are just as athletic if not more so but are just to small for big time football.  Those same brothers and cousins would make amazing wrestlers.

 

No way. The SEC already had wrestling and they were pretty rotten at it. That's one of the reasons they all threw in the towel on wrestling. Occasionally you'd see an SEC team finish top 10 at NCAAs back in the day, but those southern boys are soft and it shows on the mat.

 

The "deep south" produces a negligible amount of talent, too. Who was the last wrestler who went to HS in Alabama that won an NCAA title? Georgia? Mississippi? Louisiana? Kentucky? Arkansas? South Carolina? Tennessee? Through sheer numbers Texas/Florida have produced some talent, though, but very anemic in terms of how many participants they have.

Point on hiring great coach with big bucks, but the south produces almost no wrestling talent. Even Cael gravitated to Pennsylvania because he needed the talent to make his dynasty. I can't see anybody doing that in Tuscaloosa, Athens, or Little Rock.



#44 JohnnyThompsonnum1

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 06:27 PM

No way. The SEC already had wrestling and they were pretty rotten at it. That's one of the reasons they all threw in the towel on wrestling. Occasionally you'd see an SEC team finish top 10 at NCAAs back in the day, but those southern boys are soft and it shows on the mat.

 

The "deep south" produces a negligible amount of talent, too. Who was the last wrestler who went to HS in Alabama that won an NCAA title? Georgia? Mississippi? Louisiana? Kentucky? Arkansas? South Carolina? Tennessee? Through sheer numbers Texas/Florida have produced some talent, though, but very anemic in terms of how many participants they have.

Point on hiring great coach with big bucks, but the south produces almost no wrestling talent. Even Cael gravitated to Pennsylvania because he needed the talent to make his dynasty. I can't see anybody doing that in Tuscaloosa, Athens, or Little Rock.

1969-1970 through 1980-1981, the 12 years the SEC had wrestling, most of the wrestlers on the  7 teams total that were in the SEC were made up of wrestlers from other states.  States as in Iowa, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania. Wrestling at the high school level wasn't much in Alabama or Louisiana, so the teams weren't made up of kids from Alabama or Louisiana when we talk about Alabama, Auburn or Louisiana State wrestling. 

That's the point I was making earlier. Today with the massive growth of wrestling, and the type of talent that Georgia, Tennessee, Florida and Texas produce, you COULD produce talented teams with kids from the home state. Especially Georgia and Florida. 

Why are you even mentioning Mississippi in your question? You already know the answer to that question.  You can't produce what you don't have.  There is no high school wrestling in Mississippi, so of course they won't be producing NCAA champions. 

SEC wrestling only lasted 12 seasons and in those 12 seasons, teams placed in the top 10 on 3 occasions.  I don't think 3/12 in relative terms is that bad. 

1977 Kentucky 10th 
1980 Kentucky 10th 
1981 Auburn 9th 

If you're wanting a team to compete with Penn State and Ohio State, then yeah, you're probably not going to get that with a Florida Gator or Georgia Bulldog or Tennessee Volunteer team made up of kids from Florida, Georgia, Texas and Alabama competing with a Penn State team made up of kids from Pennsylvania, Ohio, New Jersey and New York.  

But if you're talking about a competitive team, as in a team that can produce All Americans and compete for a spot in the top 15. Yeah, a college team in Florida, made up of kids from Florida and the surrounding nearby southern states of Georgia, Alabama, ect. Most certainly they could.  I have no doubt. 

I mean let's just be hypothetical here for a second. I'll throw out a year for the Hell of it.  

2002

Let's say 2002 NCAA tournament I have to use wrestlers that were wrestling during that time, based on their NCAA finish of that year.  Let's pretend that instead of wrestling for who they did wrestle for they would have had the opportunity to wrestle for the Florida Gators. 

125 - Chris Rodrigues (From Georgia) 8th 
133 - Witt Durden (From Georgia) 3rd
149 - Jared Frayer (From Florida) 2nd
165 - Mark Fee (From Florida) 5th 
174 - Ralph Everett (From Florida) 0-2
184 - Josh Lambrecht (From Florida) 2nd
197- Tom Grossman (From Texas) 1-2 
HWT - Adrian Thompson (From Florida) 1-2 

So here I give you an example of what could have been a team made entirely of southern boys.  8 NCAA qualifiers, 4 of which were All Americans, including two finalist. I would think this for sure would be a top 15 if not a top 10 finish.  

So let's say that instead of wrestling for the various schools that these wrestlers did end up wrestling for, they would have HAD the opportunity to wrestle in the south.  Florida Gators, Georgia Bulldogs, Texas A&M Aggies. 

Yes, the south produces some great talent and yes, good enough talent to be top 15, maybe even top 10 NCAA DI. 

My opinion, for what it's apparently not worth. 

 


Edited by JohnnyThompsonnum1, 11 January 2018 - 06:29 PM.

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"Gable said something in the newspapers to the effect that he had to show up on the podium and accept defeat like he accepted winning. Personally, I think that's the mark of a true sportsman. Such antics as having to be called repeatedly to the awards podium, hopping down prematurely, trashing one's medal at the venue, etc., don't show how much a guy hates to lose, etc. Taking a loss like a man, then coming back to compete harder (again like Gable did) does." Hurricanewrestling

#45 HurricaneWrestling

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 06:50 PM

SEC wrestling only lasted 12 seasons and in those 12 seasons, teams placed in the top 10 on 3 occasions.  I don't think 3/12 in relative terms is that bad. 

1977 Kentucky 10th 
1980 Kentucky 10th 
1981 Auburn 9th 

 

Also...

 

1983 LSU 8th 

1984 LSU 8th

1985 Tennessee 8th



#46 JohnnyThompsonnum1

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 06:54 PM

No way. The SEC already had wrestling and they were pretty rotten at it. That's one of the reasons they all threw in the towel on wrestling. 

Actually, there were two main reasons the SEC wrestling was scrapped.  

#1 was because of low attendance. SEC dual meets drew practically nothing. Chattanooga would wrestle Tennessee at Knoxville and their would be 125 people in the crowd.  115 of them having made the hour and half drive from Chattanooga. Even the conference championships themselves were poorly attended.  A lack of keesters in the seats per SEC duals and tournaments had a lot more to do with wrestling being scrapped, than did simply "not being good at it."

I mean you're not wrong.  Wrestling doesn't really have what I like to call "Chicago Cubs" fans.  If you want people to show up and watch, you better not only be good, you better be the best or at least in contention to be the best.  If Ohio State and Penn State dual meet attendance comparing today to yesteryear doesn't prove that, I don't know what does. 

Yet, had people showed up to dual meets in Knoxville or Gainesville or Atlanta or Baton Rouge like they did/do in Chattanooga,  the chances of SEC wrestling sticking around, would have been much greater. 

When Bear Bryant came in and dropped Alabama wrestling in 1979, the writing was on the wall. That was the beginning of the end.   Florida following in suit shortly after made little to no sense.  In both 1977 and 1978 they had 6 NCAA qualifiers, winning the SEC in 1977 and producing their one and only All American in 1978.  In other words, the philosophy seemed to be at Florida, "Hey, we're starting to get good and competitive now...better drop the team."  It made absolutely no sense. 

Pat Dye axing the program at Auburn is essentially in a nutshell what killed SEC wrestling for good. When the champs from the 1981 tournament were told, "no more" that was it for everyone else too. 

 


"Gable said something in the newspapers to the effect that he had to show up on the podium and accept defeat like he accepted winning. Personally, I think that's the mark of a true sportsman. Such antics as having to be called repeatedly to the awards podium, hopping down prematurely, trashing one's medal at the venue, etc., don't show how much a guy hates to lose, etc. Taking a loss like a man, then coming back to compete harder (again like Gable did) does." Hurricanewrestling

#47 JohnnyThompsonnum1

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 06:55 PM

Also...

 

1983 LSU 8th 

1984 LSU 8th

1985 Tennessee 8th

SEC wrestling only existed from 1969-1970 through 1980-1981

By 1983 through 1985, LSU and Tennessee were competing in other conferences/regionals for NCAA qualification. 

 


"Gable said something in the newspapers to the effect that he had to show up on the podium and accept defeat like he accepted winning. Personally, I think that's the mark of a true sportsman. Such antics as having to be called repeatedly to the awards podium, hopping down prematurely, trashing one's medal at the venue, etc., don't show how much a guy hates to lose, etc. Taking a loss like a man, then coming back to compete harder (again like Gable did) does." Hurricanewrestling

#48 HurricaneWrestling

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 07:01 PM

No way. The SEC already had wrestling and they were pretty rotten at it. That's one of the reasons they all threw in the towel on wrestling. Occasionally you'd see an SEC team finish top 10 at NCAAs back in the day, but those southern boys are soft and it shows on the mat.

 

The "deep south" produces a negligible amount of talent, too. Who was the last wrestler who went to HS in Alabama that won an NCAA title? Georgia? Mississippi? Louisiana? Kentucky? Arkansas? South Carolina? Tennessee? Through sheer numbers Texas/Florida have produced some talent, though, but very anemic in terms of how many participants they have.

Point on hiring great coach with big bucks, but the south produces almost no wrestling talent. Even Cael gravitated to Pennsylvania because he needed the talent to make his dynasty. I can't see anybody doing that in Tuscaloosa, Athens, or Little Rock.

 


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#49 JohnnyThompsonnum1

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 07:06 PM

The question I have is simply this.  Even if wrestling were as popular in Florida or Georgia or Texas or Alabama, would that be good enough for an athletic director?  An administration?  An argument against adding wrestling is that it doesn't draw.  Yet what are we comparing it too?  The University of Iowa holds the largest attended amateur wrestling event ever, 42,287 spectators.  Even that compared to Iowa playing Louisiana-Monroe in Football paled in comparison at 70,585 fans.  

Iowa wrestling, the best for attendance in the country still only generates about 5,500 to 15,000.   

Would that do anything for an A.D. at Florida or Georgia or Georgia Tech or wherever?  

I mean even if we could guarantee 15,000 fans per dual, would that mean anything to anyone?  

Curious about that.  


"Gable said something in the newspapers to the effect that he had to show up on the podium and accept defeat like he accepted winning. Personally, I think that's the mark of a true sportsman. Such antics as having to be called repeatedly to the awards podium, hopping down prematurely, trashing one's medal at the venue, etc., don't show how much a guy hates to lose, etc. Taking a loss like a man, then coming back to compete harder (again like Gable did) does." Hurricanewrestling

#50 TobusRex

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 08:21 PM

I think it ultimately comes down to $ and Title 9. There's more bucks in nearly any male sport than wrestling. Plus Title 9 absolutely crushed our sport...gotta give out schollies and start lady's sports programs that nobody watches/cares about. The thing that I think is interesting about that is outside women's bball/softball their other sports are massive economic losers but the schools are required to keep them ANYWAY.

 

Regarding building a team with out of state talent, the SEC schools pretty much wouldn't have any choice in the matter if they wanted to field a competitive top 10 type team. Sure, if they got ALL the southern talent they could maybe scrape together 1 halfway decent team.

 

Southern boys are soft and weak though. Best they stick to sports that use a ball, preferably one big enough they can't swallow it accidentally.


Edited by TobusRex, 11 January 2018 - 08:24 PM.

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#51 JohnnyThompsonnum1

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 12:20 AM

I think it ultimately comes down to $ and Title 9. There's more bucks in nearly any male sport than wrestling. Plus Title 9 absolutely crushed our sport...gotta give out schollies and start lady's sports programs that nobody watches/cares about. The thing that I think is interesting about that is outside women's bball/softball their other sports are massive economic losers but the schools are required to keep them ANYWAY.

 

Regarding building a team with out of state talent, the SEC schools pretty much wouldn't have any choice in the matter if they wanted to field a competitive top 10 type team. Sure, if they got ALL the southern talent they could maybe scrape together 1 halfway decent team.

 

Southern boys are soft and weak though. Best they stick to sports that use a ball, preferably one big enough they can't swallow it accidentally.

I don't know how you can say that based on the talent that Florida and Georgia have produced over the years.   Texas even. 


"Gable said something in the newspapers to the effect that he had to show up on the podium and accept defeat like he accepted winning. Personally, I think that's the mark of a true sportsman. Such antics as having to be called repeatedly to the awards podium, hopping down prematurely, trashing one's medal at the venue, etc., don't show how much a guy hates to lose, etc. Taking a loss like a man, then coming back to compete harder (again like Gable did) does." Hurricanewrestling

#52 TobusRex

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:02 AM

I don't know how you can say that based on the talent that Florida and Georgia have produced over the years.   Texas even. 

 

You sound more knowledgeable on the topic than I do, Johnny, and I enjoyed your posts regarding SEC wrestling. Don't get upset over my opinion, I'm pretty bigoted against the SEC because they don't have wrestling.



#53 JohnnyThompsonnum1

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:35 AM

You sound more knowledgeable on the topic than I do, Johnny, and I enjoyed your posts regarding SEC wrestling. Don't get upset over my opinion, I'm pretty bigoted against the SEC because they don't have wrestling.

I understand being upset about a conference not having wrestling or a school for that matter.  I've been blocked by certain Drake University Twitters because I have a habit of consistently asking about when they're going to rename a building "The Lonnie Timmerman Center" and reinstate wrestling. They don't like being asked that once or twice a week apparently. 

All I am saying is simply this.  If you give me a team in Florida or Georgia.  I don't care what school.  Florida, Florida State, Central Florida, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Georgia State whatever.  If you grant me 9.9 scholarships/money to recruit, an ability to hire coaches at competitive wages (talking one head coach and at one paid assistant), facilities (wrestling room, weight room)....

WITH TALENT STRICTLY FROM FLORIDA, GEORGIA & OTHER SOUTHERN STATES...I could produce you within 5 years or less a team that consistently finished in the top 20 at  the NCAA tournament. 

I am saying that, for what it's apparently not worth. 


"Gable said something in the newspapers to the effect that he had to show up on the podium and accept defeat like he accepted winning. Personally, I think that's the mark of a true sportsman. Such antics as having to be called repeatedly to the awards podium, hopping down prematurely, trashing one's medal at the venue, etc., don't show how much a guy hates to lose, etc. Taking a loss like a man, then coming back to compete harder (again like Gable did) does." Hurricanewrestling

#54 tightwaist

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:49 AM

I don't know how you can say that based on the talent that Florida and Georgia have produced over the years.   Texas even. 

 

Fla and Georgia have produced some pretty good talent, but not enough to fill rosters for an SEC team on any given year.  You are looking through years of data to find guys who placed at the NCAA's.  Top tier D1 programs have talent and depth, and none of those SEC states produce even close to enough talent to fill a roster and be competitive.  The SEC focuses on sports where they are always going to be in the picture for a national championship, and most of those sports have plenty of talent in their own backyard. 

 

My father in law was an AD at a prominent southern school (D1) that used to sponsor wrestling.  He was a fan of the sport, but said the travel and lack of a built in recruiting base were the reasons for axing the program.  Title IX makes it even easier to justify. 



#55 RichB

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 03:06 AM

You just can't expect kids who grew up on grits to be competitive with kids who grew up on scrapple!

 

Really, the powers that be in so many Southern schools just don't really care for the idea of Student Athletes. That is why they shoot for the minimum number of teams they can get away with. Compare that with the EIWA where most of the schools athletic philosophy is that we don't want to lose a potential excellent student because we don't field a team in a sport he or she would like to compete in.  .


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#56 TobusRex

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 03:39 AM

You just can't expect kids who grew up on grits to be competitive with kids who grew up on scrapple!

 

Really, the powers that be in so many Southern schools just don't really care for the idea of Student Athletes. That is why they shoot for the minimum number of teams they can get away with. Compare that with the EIWA where most of the schools athletic philosophy is that we don't want to lose a potential excellent student because we don't field a team in a sport he or she would like to compete in.  .

 

Academic requirements in the SEC are pretty rotten. Take that with a grain of salt from an OU fan.



#57 KTG119

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 05:41 AM

Plus Citadel and Gardner-Webb are also nearby in South Carolina..

Gardner-Webb is in NC, not SC. not too far from SC border though.


Edited by KTG119, 12 January 2018 - 05:42 AM.


#58 WillieBoy

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 05:54 AM

A Florida school would be a good one to concentrate efforts for. All the Northern Retirees who have moved there? Get some of them involved in the push to put Wrestling in a State University.



#59 Plasmodium

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 06:43 AM

Why would we want teams from these sh#@&$$ states? They are drug dealers and rapists. Some, I assume are good people.
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#60 RichB

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 07:04 AM

A Florida school would be a good one to concentrate efforts for. All the Northern Retirees who have moved there? Get some of them involved in the push to put Wrestling in a State University.

Problem is Miami and South Florida are within a bus ride of no one. U Florida and UCF only a little better. That is why I suggest concentrating on 5 colleges closer to each other, and to existing programs.

 

Of course I don't understand how alabama Huntsville (or is it Birmingham) has a hockey team. 






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