Jump to content


Photo

Kyle Snyder the pinning machine?


  • Please log in to reply
88 replies to this topic

#41 josefsmoe

josefsmoe

    Bronze Member

  • Members
  • 348 posts

Posted 09 January 2018 - 05:59 PM

Dmm53, you said that Snyder is far far from being the best "Folkstyle" wrestler this year or any year did you not? That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read on here.


Agreed, simply foolish! And, so absurd that it undermines the credibility of the poster to such an extent that he/she cannot be taken seriously on any matter that requires a brain to be used. Unless of course it is a troll job, then in that case, WELL DONE!

Kyle Snyder is simply one of the greatest American wrestlers ever to step on a wrestling mat, freestyle or folkstyle. If you disagree you either know nothing about wrestling, or you might be having a stroke, seek help immediately!

#42 repechange

repechange

    Bronze Member

  • Members
  • 765 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 01:38 AM

In theory the Hodge should be looked at in a vacuum based on collegiate wrestling only and on that season's body of work. The reality is that Snyder's international accomplishments will indeed color the voting.

#43 MSU158

MSU158

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 5,073 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 03:05 AM

I am not as extreme as dmm, but I do think there is a fair argument to at least consider Retherford as a better Folkstyle wrestler than Snyder.  He is such a complete wrestler and would subject Snyder to something he has NEVER felt before.  A BRUTAL ride.  Unless you have felt that type of ride at the elite level, I don't think you can truly understand what an equalizer it can be.  Snyder has one of the most amazing gas tanks, but make him go under Retherford for 2 minutes and I just about guarantee you, his legs will be as rubbery as they have ever been.

 

Now, do I think Snyder could truly be the best Folkstyler if he he focused soley on it?  Almost definitely.  However, he has been very vocal that he does not and being at the weight he is, he hasn't really ever been subjected to the type of rides the middleweights can put on.

 

Simply put, in a vacuum, where both wrestlers are at their ideal weights(yet have no weight advantage, which is the only fair way to do this type of comparison) I would have a hard time picking Snyder over Retherford.



#44 bigmik

bigmik

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 7,790 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 04:25 AM

I am not as extreme as dmm, but I do think there is a fair argument to at least consider Retherford as a better Folkstyle wrestler than Snyder.  He is such a complete wrestler and would subject Snyder to something he has NEVER felt before.  A BRUTAL ride.  Unless you have felt that type of ride at the elite level, I don't think you can truly understand what an equalizer it can be.  Snyder has one of the most amazing gas tanks, but make him go under Retherford for 2 minutes and I just about guarantee you, his legs will be as rubbery as they have ever been.

 

Now, do I think Snyder could truly be the best Folkstyler if he he focused soley on it?  Almost definitely.  However, he has been very vocal that he does not and being at the weight he is, he hasn't really ever been subjected to the type of rides the middleweights can put on.

 

Simply put, in a vacuum, where both wrestlers are at their ideal weights(yet have no weight advantage, which is the only fair way to do this type of comparison) I would have a hard time picking Snyder over Retherford.

 

 

Snyder has been under J'den Cox, one of the best riders of all time, and got out without much trouble. You're assuming that he could ride a well-prepared Snyder effectively, and that if he did successfully ride him for 2 minutes it would surely be "brutal". Remember in the Collica match, Zain rode out Collica the entire second period, but had trouble doing so. In the third period, Collica had plenty left in the tank but was unable to get a takedown though he had many attempts before the final whistle. Also, consider the type of beating in neutral that Snyder could potentially put on Retherford. He may be so worn down himself that he isn't able to get much going in the first place. But I see in your world, Zain WOULD subject Snyder to a BRUTAL ride, but Snyder subjecting him to a neutral beatdown is only a possibility, right? 

 

All of this will probably fall on deaf ears since you think that Snyder could be had by Dean because Dean is such a great, great, great...................."neck clubber"! Your points are laughably bad and you continue to show that you don't know much about wrestling outside of statistics. 



#45 MSU158

MSU158

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 5,073 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 04:41 AM

Snyder has been under J'den Cox, one of the best riders of all time, and got out without much trouble. You're assuming that he could ride a well-prepared Snyder effectively, and that if he did successfully ride him for 2 minutes it would surely be "brutal". Remember in the Collica match, Zain rode out Collica the entire second period, but had trouble doing so. In the third period, Collica had plenty left in the tank but was unable to get a takedown though he had many attempts before the final whistle. Also, consider the type of beating in neutral that Snyder could potentially put on Retherford. He may be so worn down himself that he isn't able to get much going in the first place. But I see in your world, Zain WOULD subject Snyder to a BRUTAL ride, but Snyder subjecting him to a neutral beatdown is only a possibility, right? 

 

All of this will probably fall on deaf ears since you think that Snyder could be had by Dean because Dean is such a great, great, great...................."neck clubber"! Your points are laughably bad and you continue to show that you don't know much about wrestling outside of statistics. 

You are so full of it and you actually think most on here think you know what you are talking about.  You ALWAYS pick the worst match of someone's year or career to use it to gauge that person.  That is the WEAKEST argument possible.  Ignore all of the positives and focus on one sole result.  Should we then judge Snyder solely off getting pinned by Gadson with relative ease?

 

Also, I didn't SAY Retherford is better.  I said there is at least an argument that could be made.  Also, Snyder was ridden a full period by a far inferior Jenson(see I used your 1 match logic), so it could be said that it would be MUCH MORE likely that Retherford would ride out Snyder.

 

Finally, in regards to Dean, I believed his style was enough to slow down Snyder and make it hard for him to get to his offense.  I wasn't saying that Dean was clearly better or would definitely beat Snyder.  You can run your mouth on that comment all you want, but NOTHING you could say could prove that fact wrong.

 

Now, I am not going to go back and forth with you because you go right past stubborn to obnoxiously obtuse.  In fact, you make BigTenFanBoy look like a guy that doesn't like to argue.  You can go on thinking you are all knowledgeable and never wrong, but that doesn't actually make it so.

 

Feel free to get the last word in, we all KNOW you have to..................



#46 Housebuye

Housebuye

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 4,462 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 04:47 AM

In theory the Hodge should be looked at in a vacuum based on collegiate wrestling only and on that season's body of work. The reality is that Snyder's international accomplishments will indeed color the voting.

I'd prefer the Hodge wasn't looked at in a vacuum.

 

The most dominant award is that and should be purely metrics based.

 

I want the Hodge to be the "best wrestler" award and allow the decision to be subjective. 

 

I'm sure all would agree that Snyder is a better wrestler than Zain, even if you want to say Zain is a better folkstyle wrestler (I don't agree with that, but I can see why someone would make that claim)



#47 Gantry

Gantry

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 5,485 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 05:40 AM

J'den Cox, one of the best riders of all time

 

Hyperbole cleanup, Aisle 3


  • PSUMike likes this

#48 bigmik

bigmik

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 7,790 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 06:40 AM

You are so full of it and you actually think most on here think you know what you are talking about.  You ALWAYS pick the worst match of someone's year or career to use it to gauge that person.  That is the WEAKEST argument possible.  Ignore all of the positives and focus on one sole result.  Should we then judge Snyder solely off getting pinned by Gadson with relative ease?

 

 

What in the world are you talking about? When have I mentioned that I think that most people here know what I'm talking about??? In reality, the opposite is probably true. And are you really this dull? Retherford's win over Collica is not the worst match of his career. Retherford has three career losses. A statistics warrior (i.e. a person without any true understanding of a given sport outside of some statistics) such as yourself should know that. 

 

I'm not focusing on one result. I'm not ignoring the positives. Stop resorting to spreading mistruths to prove your ridiculous point. I just merely pointed out that Retherford is not guaranteed to put a "brutal" ride on Snyder. This isn't the only time that has happened in his career. The same thing happened with Sorenson, and I believe Port too.  I also gave you Snyder's escaping Cox as a piece of evidence to show what Snyder could do on the bottom. Again, Cox is one of the best riders of all time and Snyder handled that just fine. 

 

Also, I didn't SAY Retherford is better.  I said there is at least an argument that could be made.  Also, Snyder was ridden a full period by a far inferior Jenson(see I used your 1 match logic), so it could be said that it would be MUCH MORE likely that Retherford would ride out Snyder.

 

 

And when did I say that you said Retherford is better? Where? I didn't say this. You make things up so often that I should conclude that you do it intentionally to make everyone else's position seem as ridiculous as yours. It's as though you really know that your opinion is nonsensical so you try to create the illusion of a good back-and-forth debate, when in reality, your opponent actually has the much better position. When you have to resort to make-believe, that's usually a good sign that you should abandon your argument.

 

Yes, Snyder was ridden by Jensen. Snyder also escaped without trouble from the much larger Connor Medberry in the ncaa final. Medberry was the best heavyweight on top last year. When the lights are brightest, Snyder wrestles his best. He can escape when he absolutely has to. If he had to escape vs. Jensen, do you doubt he could have? The fact that Snyder consistently escapes when he absolutely has to should be taken into consideration, especially when he's able to do so vs. much larger opponents. Snyder hasn't shown a consistent weakness on the mat, yet you make it seem like it's certain that he "would" have a hard time with Retherford. Retherford has shown far more weakness on his feet than Snyder has on bottom, but it isn't equally certain that Snyder "would" overwhelm him on his feet? Why not? You seem to have a bias against Snyder.

 

 

Finally, in regards to Dean, I believed his style was enough to slow down Snyder and make it hard for him to get to his offense.  I wasn't saying that Dean was clearly better or would definitely beat Snyder.  You can run your mouth on that comment all you want, but NOTHING you could say could prove that fact wrong.

 

 

You are so dishonest MSU158. Look at you shamelessly setting up strawmen and then knocking them down and pretending that you are being reasonable.  I never said that you said Dean was better than, or would definitely beat, Snyder. So why even mention that??? "Nothing you could say could prove that fact wrong"... are you serious? I never said that was a fact, I never said that you said that. This seems like it's just a distraction that you created to ignore from what you actually did say. Let's focus on that.

 

"...In folkstyle, Dean and him would be a toss-up"---That's what you said. You think that match is a toss-up because you believe Dean would slow Snyder down due to his "neck clubbing". Be honest, are you so embarrassed by this statement now that you don't actually want to address what you originally said? You talk about what you didn't say (which I didn't even accuse you of saying) rather than what you did say. "...in regards to Dean, I believed his style was enough to slow down Snyder and make it hard for him to get to his offense." Yeah, but that's not all. You think it's enough to slow him down to the point that the very result is in doubt. And you weren't talking about a one-time thing either, you thought that Dean was good enough to consistently wrestle Snyder that way! You're talking about a match that would mostly be contested on the feet. Probably 6+ out of 7 minutes on the feet. In that time, you think that Dean would be able to go even with or win the tie-ups and handfighting battle with Snyder.  That "neck-clubbing" is going to be enough to stop Snyder; serving as an equalizer. To put it simply, you suggested that Dean would be able to win the takedown battle with Snyder. The match would be a toss-up because the neutral wrestling would be! Absurd! If you can't tell that Snyder is considerably more skilled than Dean on his feet (in ties, handfighting, positioning, footwork, takedowns, finishing) there's really not much hope for you. You haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about. Perhaps sticking to ncaa breakdowns where Penn State finishes no higher than second is what you should stick to. Well, then again, maybe there is some hope for you. Since you try mightily to avoid what you actually said about Dean/Snyder, maybe that shows that deep down you realize how stupid your comments were and are rightfully embarrassed by them. Don't let that shame go to waste. Learn from it and change your ways.

 

 

Now, I am not going to go back and forth with you because you go right past stubborn to obnoxiously obtuse.  In fact, you make BigTenFanBoy look like a guy that doesn't like to argue.  You can go on thinking you are all knowledgeable and never wrong, but that doesn't actually make it so.‚Äč

 

 

 

Is it possible that you are upset because you know I'm right about the few major arguments that I have made on themat? It seems that way. I won't apologize for being right just because it hurts your feelings/ego in some way. That's your personal issue.



#49 bigmik

bigmik

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 7,790 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 06:46 AM

Hyperbole cleanup, Aisle 3

 

That's not hyperbole at all. It's maybe the biggest reason why he has 3 ncaa titles. How many times in his freshman year did his mat wrestling save him when he couldn't get his offense going on his feet? What year was his riding ability not an important part of his game? He's put many hard rides, resulting in RT, over the top guys throughout his career.



#50 hammerlockthree

hammerlockthree

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 3,473 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 06:50 AM

Ok fine, derek st john is one of the best riders ever.



#51 bigmik

bigmik

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 7,790 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 06:54 AM

Ok fine, derek st john is one of the best riders ever.

 

 

Stop being obtuse. His riding didn't get him to 3 ncaa titles. Cox was just about a "lock" to pick up RT on most his opponents. He even was a top tier rider his true freshman year.



#52 hammerlockthree

hammerlockthree

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 3,473 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 07:00 AM

st.john was just as good on top as Cox, just much worse on this feet.



#53 LemonPie

LemonPie

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 5,198 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 07:05 AM

Who votes for the Hodge anyway? Media members? Coaches?

Anyone but Heil '18

 

http://contenttolosebythree.com


#54 bigmik

bigmik

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 7,790 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 07:06 AM

st.john was just as good on top as Cox, just much worse on this feet.

 

No he wasn't. St. John didn't have nearly the success on top that Cox had. If he were better on top, he'd probably have more national championships.



#55 hammerlockthree

hammerlockthree

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 3,473 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 07:15 AM

you're wrong



#56 MSU158

MSU158

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 5,073 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 07:20 AM

you're wrong

good luck arguing with this guy. You have a better chance of banging your head through a 12 inch steel wall than you do getting through to this guy.........


  • PSUMike and BigTenFanboy like this

#57 MSU158

MSU158

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 5,073 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 07:22 AM

What in the world are you talking about? When have I mentioned that I think that most people here know what I'm talking about??? In reality, the opposite is probably true. And are you really this dull? Retherford's win over Collica is not the worst match of his career. Retherford has three career losses. A statistics warrior (i.e. a person without any true understanding of a given sport outside of some statistics) such as yourself should know that. 

 

I'm not focusing on one result. I'm not ignoring the positives. Stop resorting to spreading mistruths to prove your ridiculous point. I just merely pointed out that Retherford is not guaranteed to put a "brutal" ride on Snyder. This isn't the only time that has happened in his career. The same thing happened with Sorenson, and I believe Port too.  I also gave you Snyder's escaping Cox as a piece of evidence to show what Snyder could do on the bottom. Again, Cox is one of the best riders of all time and Snyder handled that just fine. 

 

And when did I say that you said Retherford is better? Where? I didn't say this. You make things up so often that I should conclude that you do it intentionally to make everyone else's position seem as ridiculous as yours. It's as though you really know that your opinion is nonsensical so you try to create the illusion of a good back-and-forth debate, when in reality, your opponent actually has the much better position. When you have to resort to make-believe, that's usually a good sign that you should abandon your argument.

 

Yes, Snyder was ridden by Jensen. Snyder also escaped without trouble from the much larger Connor Medberry in the ncaa final. Medberry was the best heavyweight on top last year. When the lights are brightest, Snyder wrestles his best. He can escape when he absolutely has to. If he had to escape vs. Jensen, do you doubt he could have? The fact that Snyder consistently escapes when he absolutely has to should be taken into consideration, especially when he's able to do so vs. much larger opponents. Snyder hasn't shown a consistent weakness on the mat, yet you make it seem like it's certain that he "would" have a hard time with Retherford. Retherford has shown far more weakness on his feet than Snyder has on bottom, but it isn't equally certain that Snyder "would" overwhelm him on his feet? Why not? You seem to have a bias against Snyder.

 

 

You are so dishonest MSU158. Look at you shamelessly setting up strawmen and then knocking them down and pretending that you are being reasonable.  I never said that you said Dean was better than, or would definitely beat, Snyder. So why even mention that??? "Nothing you could say could prove that fact wrong"... are you serious? I never said that was a fact, I never said that you said that. This seems like it's just a distraction that you created to ignore from what you actually did say. Let's focus on that.

 

"...In folkstyle, Dean and him would be a toss-up"---That's what you said. You think that match is a toss-up because you believe Dean would slow Snyder down due to his "neck clubbing". Be honest, are you so embarrassed by this statement now that you don't actually want to address what you originally said? You talk about what you didn't say (which I didn't even accuse you of saying) rather than what you did say. "...in regards to Dean, I believed his style was enough to slow down Snyder and make it hard for him to get to his offense." Yeah, but that's not all. You think it's enough to slow him down to the point that the very result is in doubt. And you weren't talking about a one-time thing either, you thought that Dean was good enough to consistently wrestle Snyder that way! You're talking about a match that would mostly be contested on the feet. Probably 6+ out of 7 minutes on the feet. In that time, you think that Dean would be able to go even with or win the tie-ups and handfighting battle with Snyder.  That "neck-clubbing" is going to be enough to stop Snyder; serving as an equalizer. To put it simply, you suggested that Dean would be able to win the takedown battle with Snyder. The match would be a toss-up because the neutral wrestling would be! Absurd! If you can't tell that Snyder is considerably more skilled than Dean on his feet (in ties, handfighting, positioning, footwork, takedowns, finishing) there's really not much hope for you. You haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about. Perhaps sticking to ncaa breakdowns where Penn State finishes no higher than second is what you should stick to. Well, then again, maybe there is some hope for you. Since you try mightily to avoid what you actually said about Dean/Snyder, maybe that shows that deep down you realize how stupid your comments were and are rightfully embarrassed by them. Don't let that shame go to waste. Learn from it and change your ways.

 

 

 

Is it possible that you are upset because you know I'm right about the few major arguments that I have made on themat? It seems that way. I won't apologize for being right just because it hurts your feelings/ego in some way. That's your personal issue.

I knew you needed to not only get the last word in, but you wrote a literal garbled up novel(of course I read next to none of it).

 

I 100% completely disagree with most of what you say, quite honestly.  In no way am I upset.  If I was I would continue to argue with you.  Instead, I said my part and you can keep ranting yours.  Good luck with that(and your next comment will indeed be the last word on this topic between you and I, so you will get that too)!!


Edited by MSU158, 10 January 2018 - 07:23 AM.

  • PSUMike and BigTenFanboy like this

#58 hammerlockthree

hammerlockthree

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 3,473 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 07:25 AM

you have to be mentally ill, and a horrible writer to compose a post that long....


  • PSUMike and BigTenFanboy like this

#59 BigTenFanboy

BigTenFanboy

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 5,004 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 07:40 AM

No he wasn't. St. John didn't have nearly the success on top that Cox had. If he were better on top, he'd probably have more national championships.

 

Yes guys! If St John was better on top he would have more national championships and beaten Bubba Jenkins, Kyle Dake, and Alex Dieringer.

Dieringer wasn't even that good to begin with and Dake we all know never wins anything when he comes to fantasy.


Edited by BigTenFanboy, 10 January 2018 - 07:41 AM.


#60 hammerlockthree

hammerlockthree

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 3,473 posts

Posted 10 January 2018 - 07:43 AM

I'm also gonna point out that BTFB named two guys better on top than Cox while just listing random contemporaries of Derek St. John.....


Edited by hammerlockthree, 10 January 2018 - 07:45 AM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users