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Lee 0-2 next two duals? What then?


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#41 BigTimeFan

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:12 AM

It would be quite the sobering moment. If they pulled him from Midlands due to a single loss and a need to protect his confidence, one can only speculate what they'd do to him after consecutive losses. They wouldn't want to hurt his confidence or throw off his psyche. These are 2 huge matches and at 125, Lee has struggled in huge matches (Fix, Desanto, Bresser). I'm not going to go out on a limb and say he wins both, and quite frankly I'll be happy with a split. I have to believe the Lee fan base will be doing much second guessing and finger pointing in the event he goes 0-2. At this point I'd like to see him get out there and just focus on his wrestling. The pressure has got to really be taking a toll on him. One social media site had commentary with fans calling for Brands job after Midlands. That's too much to put on the young kid.


Thi is a great post and I think captures the risks here. So far as I know the worst losing streak Lee ever suffered was the two consecutive losses for Fix. Should he go 0-2 - notwithstanding the quality of the competition being so high - not only is that 0-3 in a row but it’s also two losses to people Fix beat (though Fix beat Tomo in freestyle. This would put Lee in a kind of mental double jeapardy because of Fix.
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#42 russelscout

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:21 AM

Without inside info, you have no idea of the pressure Lee is going through. The fact that he lost and decided to still go for a title this year says a lot. It would appear that a meaningless regular season loss is not as crushing as Cletus had hoped it would be. I have to believe the decision to be Cut loose was something he had a pretty significant say in.

Edited by russelscout, 12 January 2018 - 01:23 AM.

"To use the word domination for me, we do preach that to our guys. We talk about building leads and scoring points, but when I'm talking to an audience it's almost hypacritcal in my mind. We got work to do before we get to the domination." -Tom Brands

#43 Mpchillin

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:29 AM

Thi is a great post and I think captures the risks here. So far as I know the worst losing streak Lee ever suffered was the two consecutive losses for Fix. Should he go 0-2 - notwithstanding the quality of the competition being so high - not only is that 0-3 in a row but it’s also two losses to people Fix beat (though Fix beat Tomo in freestyle. This would put Lee in a kind of mental double jeapardy because of Fix.


I know it doesn’t fit your narrative but he wouldn’t be 0-3.

#44 BigTenFanboy

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 02:26 AM

Thi is a great post and I think captures the risks here. So far as I know the worst losing streak Lee ever suffered was the two consecutive losses for Fix. Should he go 0-2 - notwithstanding the quality of the competition being so high - not only is that 0-3 in a row but it’s also two losses to people Fix beat (though Fix beat Tomo in freestyle. This would put Lee in a kind of mental double jeapardy because of Fix.


He rebounded with a win against MSU so even if he loses the next 2 it won't be 3 in a row...

#45 russelscout

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 02:30 AM

Honest question btfb? you think the brands and Lee are completely unaware of just how tough the big 10s and 125 as a whole is? Do you think the brands think he may take some lumps or crush everyone through the ncaa?

Edited by russelscout, 12 January 2018 - 02:30 AM.

"To use the word domination for me, we do preach that to our guys. We talk about building leads and scoring points, but when I'm talking to an audience it's almost hypacritcal in my mind. We got work to do before we get to the domination." -Tom Brands

#46 TobusRex

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 03:29 AM

I'm pretty excited to see what he can do. He's definitely strong/quick enough to place high on the podium. I was impressed that Bresser got in deep on Lee's left leg, had it off the mat and pulled up, and still couldn't get Lee down. He's got a nasty whizzer and has superb mat awareness. Bresser got overextended and nearly gave up two himself, eventually. Lee looks tough as hell to take down, excellent balance and strength.

 

His offensive technique needs some work. He had a rotten doubleleg attempt where he got a bit overextended and his head was down the entire time. He needs to work better out of ties, Bresser had the advantage out of ties (when he wasn't running). Lee's fairly upright stance is going to get him into a little trouble against faster wrestlers, but he looks like a serious load to take down. Counters could be a big part of his arsenal at D1 level.

 

If Lee can iron out the kinks offensively I think he'll be almost unstoppable. His mat work was decent, he had the RT advantage.

 

Regarding his record, as long as he improves I think it'll take care of itself. There aren't many guys in the B1G that have a serious chance of beating him anyway.


Edited by TobusRex, 12 January 2018 - 03:34 AM.


#47 BigTenFanboy

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 03:32 AM

Honest question btfb? you think the brands and Lee are completely unaware of just how tough the big 10s and 125 as a whole is? Do you think the brands think he may take some lumps or crush everyone through the ncaa?


Honestly I don't know. I was thrilled to see Lee's redshirt pulled because he is so highly regarded and I love seeing the best of the best go at it. At the same time I honestly don't think Lee has faced anyone of the calibur of senior Nato or sophomore Suriano and this includes those he faced in the 50k junior worlds. He will absolutely be tested in the upcoming weeks.

#48 TobusRex

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 03:37 AM

Honestly I don't know. I was thrilled to see Lee's redshirt pulled because he is so highly regarded and I love seeing the best of the best go at it. At the same time I honestly don't think Lee has faced anyone of the calibur of senior Nato or sophomore Suriano and this includes those he faced in the 50k junior worlds. He will absolutely be tested in the upcoming weeks.

 

He's got Piccininni soon. I'm looking forward to that one. I'm a Picc fan, enjoy watching that stringbean wrestle. Lee's a brute, but Picc is a high placing AA (4th) and has the length advantage. Should be great fun. Wonder if these kids wrestled in HS?



#49 russelscout

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 03:45 AM

If he gets those matches and loses, he can learn from them before Ncaas. A lot of time yet. Getting used to the pace and tactics of a D1 match is huge even for the young stars. A couple losses really doesn't seem like it would matter as long as he keeps improving before March. It's too bad for him he will not see Cruz as he brings a unique quick, explosive style.
"To use the word domination for me, we do preach that to our guys. We talk about building leads and scoring points, but when I'm talking to an audience it's almost hypacritcal in my mind. We got work to do before we get to the domination." -Tom Brands

#50 TobusRex

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 03:55 AM

If he gets those matches and loses, he can learn from them before Ncaas. A lot of time yet. Getting used to the pace and tactics of a D1 match is huge even for the young stars. A couple losses really doesn't seem like it would matter as long as he keeps improving before March. It's too bad for him he will not see Cruz as he brings a unique quick, explosive style.

 

Absolutely. As long as he keeps learning and improving. Kid looks like a potential beast.

 

I think Cruz shocks a lot of people with his power. He's a little 125 pounder, but he might be the strongest of the bunch.


Edited by TobusRex, 12 January 2018 - 03:56 AM.


#51 MA_Wrestler

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 03:57 AM

How much did it hurt all-world, greatest recruit for the program ever, Mark Hall when he lost his first match out of redshirt to Alex Meyer? Did his unattached loss to Christian Brucki earlier in the year matter? How about his loss in his last match right before NCAA's, preventing him from ever becoming a 4x Big 10 champion? Last I knew he is still an NCAA champion and nobody has a problem with Cael's decision to pull him last year.

 

Lee could very well lose these matches. Not uncommon for true freshmen to take some lumps early, maybe even more possible considering this one is coming off injury and is still getting back into things. Schlatter, Dake, obviously Hall, plenty of true freshmen national champs took regular season or even post season losses before figuring it all out and peaking for NCAA's. Not predicting Lee wins a title this year, but these next two matches are the definitive proof he will win a title or proof he can't.



#52 russelscout

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 04:17 AM

MA_Wrestler I think what you are saying is true and a lot of people believe he will be fine. A lot of people got excited about Lee because he started the season crushing and then teched Russel. People maybe got a little carried away thinking that Lee could never lose.

The debate about Lee is really about expectations. The guy is a freak talent. With that snapshot we had earlier in the season it may have appeared that a undefeated true freshman year was not out of the question. Then lee was brought back down to earth. So really if he takes 2 more losses, doesn't win nationals, doesn't place. Will It meet with what was expected of him? Probably not in some or many people's eyes. It will never be fair standard.

I think it is silly really. Since Cael we are comparing everyone by their 4 year body of work. Cael was great, no doubt. However you could argue burroughs and askren or others may have been a better wrestler by their senior years. If Lee wins 3 titles in dominant fashion would he be considered great or Not? 2? 1? What if he wins 1 in dominant fashion after losing to fix twice? What is the expectation for Lee?

It's more just fun to talk about. Cletus would say that the pressure is too much for Lee, but the kid has wrestled so many huge matches I think he lives for it. Others may say Iowa depends on his success, but really Lee is so dynamic, I think Iowa will be fine and so will Lee. It will be a fun 3 and half years to watch.

Edited by russelscout, 12 January 2018 - 04:23 AM.

"To use the word domination for me, we do preach that to our guys. We talk about building leads and scoring points, but when I'm talking to an audience it's almost hypacritcal in my mind. We got work to do before we get to the domination." -Tom Brands

#53 wrestlingnerd

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 04:46 AM

I think Cruz shocks a lot of people with his power. He's a little 125 pounder, but he might be the strongest of the bunch.


He’s not that little anymore. He clearly spent a ton of time in the weight room two summers ago.

#54 Cletus_Tucker

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 04:57 AM

Without inside info, you have no idea of the pressure Lee is going through. The fact that he lost and decided to still go for a title this year says a lot. It would appear that a meaningless regular season loss is not as crushing as Cletus had hoped it would be. I have to believe the decision to be Cut loose was something he had a pretty significant say in.

 

Haha so insecure.        

 

 

He's got Piccininni soon. I'm looking forward to that one. I'm a Picc fan, enjoy watching that stringbean wrestle. Lee's a brute, but Picc is a high placing AA (4th) and has the length advantage. Should be great fun. Wonder if these kids wrestled in HS?

 

 

This is the bout I really want to see Lee win.   I'm OK with a loss to Nato, but  believe the Picc match up really will be the one where members of the fan base point to in assessing where he truly is.    One of my buddies (huge Iowa fan, former Hawk) was so high on Lee and then just absolutely crashed back to earth with the loss, is finally speaking about him, albeit with an entirely different tone .      Lee has got to win there.   He's stirring a lot of emotions in the fan base (Rosie for example) and the pressure that comes off that has to be mounting.    Now the new expectation appears to be for this to be a learning season, one where he grows and adjusts from losses.   I think that's a fair expectation.     Pretty much where i was on him all along.     Not ready to come out and blitz the field but certainly a contender for an AA/round of 12.   I'd like to see a win over Oklahoma State and give the fan base something to feel good about.    I'm not used to Iowa fans lowering the bar to the degree of using the season and losses to get better.  It's usually been about "You dominate.  You compete"   etc.     I think this is a lot healthier.    


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#55 russelscout

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 05:00 AM

You are aware that Iowa has ten weights right?
"To use the word domination for me, we do preach that to our guys. We talk about building leads and scoring points, but when I'm talking to an audience it's almost hypacritcal in my mind. We got work to do before we get to the domination." -Tom Brands

#56 russelscout

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 05:01 AM

Not insecure. Just familiar with your same ole shtick.
"To use the word domination for me, we do preach that to our guys. We talk about building leads and scoring points, but when I'm talking to an audience it's almost hypacritcal in my mind. We got work to do before we get to the domination." -Tom Brands

#57 BigTimeFan

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 06:20 AM

I know it doesn’t fit your narrative but he wouldn’t be 0-3.

GARG... you are right. I forgot about his Carver debut. My bad. 



#58 wrestlingnerd

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 06:27 AM

GARG... you are right. I forgot about his Carver debut. My bad.

And his two Midlands wins.

#59 Cletus_Tucker

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 07:54 AM

You are aware that Iowa has ten weights right?

 

Yes but I don't see you starting any threads on the other weight classes.   I mostly see you on the Lee topics.   You are aware there's 10 weight classes, aren't you? 

 

Spencer Lee is a great young talent who much of the fan base expected a huge first year out of.    Some less experienced fans were even saying unbeaten 4 timer lol.       There's even been a "free Lee" push, since he's ready to go now.     Skip the red shirt and get him out there immediately. 

 

As a long time fan who's learned to temper expectations on these once in a generation talents that come up every other year it seems, I would have preferred he be allowed to keep the shirt and grow into the weight class, both physically, medically, and especially mentally.    There are those fans who will pretend Lee taking multiple  losses early on is a good thing.     They will ignore just 2 weeks ago they were telling us his fragile psyche needed to be protected from the dangers of the wrestle backs at the Midlands.   

 

At the end of the day, much of the Lee fuss is to do with an insecurity complex brought on by the unrealistic high hopes many had for this young man.    Now he catches much of the vitriol triggered by a disappointing outing at Midlands.    The expected defensive reaction would be to down play potential consecutive losses on the horizon and to dismiss them in advance to actually being a good thing.    If these things are good, everyone should be shooting to lose a few bouts over the next few weeks.  I have to admit, these silly reactions are entertaining, but at the end of the day, you guys are hurting the kid with reinforcing the losses are expected from him.   Not a good thing to take in (if he reads these boards).   

 

Spencer if you're reading along, we got your back win lose or draw.  We wish you the best and we know your best if goon enough to put you in position to win.  Ignore those living vicariously through you and projecting their insecurities.     Best wishes.  



#60 russelscout

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:02 AM

Did you take a similar stance with Mark hall? I don't remember you being so vocal about it; downplaying his talent and focussing on any weekends you can think of. I don't remember you being all over him for any little loss.

Spencer is good enough to win the Ncaa s as a true freshman in a super tough weight class. He goes for it and you play it up as a great mistake for Iowa. I say no, he is capable of winning it, go for it lumps or not.

Edited by russelscout, 12 January 2018 - 08:10 AM.

"To use the word domination for me, we do preach that to our guys. We talk about building leads and scoring points, but when I'm talking to an audience it's almost hypacritcal in my mind. We got work to do before we get to the domination." -Tom Brands




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