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74 kilos in 2020


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#21 pjm46

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 02:26 AM

Do you understand I'm saying he possess more skill, just overall wrestling talents, not just hardware, but variety of attacks/defenses? SNYDMAN IS LEGEND, he brings home gold, and im not saying Chamizo finished higher than Snyder at every event he has entered, Im simply saying he is the most overall complete wrestler currently on the scene.
Robert Horry has 7 NBA championship rings, but he's not a more complete player than Lebron.
Fire back with whatever, im checking out of this argument.

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Lol you just compared a Robert Horry to Snyder. That is a horrible comparison. Basketball is team sport and you can't control what the other players are doing. Wrestling is an individual sport where you are in total control

 

You can think he is a more complete wrestler but that didn't stop him from losing to Asgarov in 2016.

 

He has a wider array of attacks but he still isn't a better P4P guy by any measure. People can argue that Sads has a wider array of attacks than Snyder (He's clearly better on top) but Snyder still beat him head to head.



#22 TheRealOne9050

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 03:48 AM

2019 is going to be fantastic. Chamizo vs Burroughs and Snyder vs Akgul... who knows?


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#23 spladle08

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 04:22 AM

Lol you just compared a Robert Horry to Snyder. That is a horrible comparison. Basketball is team sport and you can't control what the other players are doing. Wrestling is an individual sport where you are in total control

You can think he is a more complete wrestler but that didn't stop him from losing to Asgarov in 2016.

He has a wider array of attacks but he still isn't a better P4P guy by any measure. People can argue that Sads has a wider array of attacks than Snyder (He's clearly better on top) but Snyder still beat him head to head.

Yeah and Greg Jones lost to Ralph Everett ...he was up there "p4p" with all of the Champs that year, just had a bad tourney... With Robert Horry I was just trying to illustrate, you cant just throw out medal counts and say "obviously he is the better wrestler"
But we have lots of time left we will see all sorts of fun over the next few years, enjoy. #Cheers

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#24 wrestlingnerd

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 04:28 AM

Snyder as far as dominance on the awards stand sure, but the weight is much thinner (talent wise) you can't think that Snyder's skillset would translate at lighter weights, hell I'd think Yazdani is better. Im hoping through some weight changes we get to see Yaz vs Sad, I know Sad is a Tank but as far as overall wrestling I think hes just good at being big. When I say p4p I mean from the lightest to the heaviest that individuals skillset would translate to wins regardless, seems like that would likely come from somebody in the middle.
Again I am from USA, I hope we win every weight every year and cheer for Snyder, Burroughs, hell even Gilman, at every event, dont don't take my appreciation for another countries athlete as a slight against America

*note Im not denying either Snyder's or Sads former accomplishments, they're both amazing and between streaks and gold thats awesome, but when I read everyone else has "a long way to go" I read, "they cant be considered better at any moment unless they have equal accolades" which just isnt true.

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Don’t even know where to begin with this...

... with the most ridiculous, I guess. Sad is just good at being big?? Is that a serious comment? Do you realize he just went UP 24 lbs and beat everyone except Snyder, whom he took down and led until the final seconds of the match? Apparently, he’s pretty friggin world class at just being small too... Sadulaev is one of the best technicians in the world right now at any weight. He just makes it look so easy that his opponents appear to be a bunch of knuckle dragging plodders. But they’re not.

These P4P discussions always get derailed by the guys who think the lightweight or middleweight guy is more skilled than the heavier guy because they move better or can do things with their lighter bodies that the heavier guys can’t. But it cuts both ways. Wrestling bigger guys requires just as much skill, just different skill. I have been vocal about the heavyweight class being soft relative to the other weights, but 86 kg and even 97 kg is full of studs and the same argument cannot hold there. A 150 lb man will always be able to do things with his body that a 220 lb man cannot due to the laws of scaling (physical abilities do not scale linearly with physical size), but the reverse is also true. If you added 60 lbs to Chamizo through gamma ray exposure and he became the Cuban-Italian Hulk, he himself would not be able to do some of the things little Chamizo can do. It’s literally not physically possible. But he’d be able to do things that little Chamizo can’t do, like move a lot more weight and exert a higher degree of force and power and leverage.

P4P is therefore necessarily subjective and in many ways a flawed concept. But there’s no denying that right now, Snyder and Sadulaev are the class of the wrestling world. Their resumes, and HOW those resumes were built, are too much of an outlier to seriously consider anyone else.

Edited by wrestlingnerd, 17 January 2018 - 04:31 AM.

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#25 spladle08

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 04:39 AM

Don’t even know wheee to begin with this...

... Their resumes, and HOW those resumes were built, are too much of an outlier to seriously consider anyone else.

Damn you wrestlingnerd, always respect your opinions and im not discounting your approach to this... I do agree the seperation between top 2 at the heavier weights is tremendous and the parity at lighter weights doesnt necessarily mean there is more skill, just different "Bodies" doing different things.
I guess subjectively I like the fact that Chamizo seems to excel in all wrestling positions while keeping himself atop the wrestling world at very compeitive weights top to bottom.
I always appreciate Snyders gastank, low single, spin behind, and push outs.
And as you said Sads all around greatness.
Eye test alone, I just feel like Chamizo seems to have the most control. Albeit a different kind of control.
The argument is not a winnable one, just hope theyre all still competiting by next Olympics, will make for a solid 3 years or entertainment.

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Edited by spladle08, 17 January 2018 - 04:41 AM.


#26 wrestlingnerd

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 04:53 AM

Chamizo is a stud. I’ll always pay max dollar to see him. There are events I’ve attended only because he was rumored to show up. I’m with you on his athleticism. I just think you’re severely discounting how tough 86 and 97 are. Very different than HWT. I do think 74 is a more competitive weight, but it’s not that different at 86. Just looking at the US, Dake and Taylor were still #2 and 3 at 86. Yazdani went up and got throttled by DT before he was able to adjust to the added weight. Wrestling heavier guys is harder than it looks. Even DT, poetry in motion at 74, openly admits to having to adjust to his bigger body and wrestling bigger guys. Different skills, but not necessarily lesser.

I will always give the benefit of the doubt to the middleweights in P4P because that’s where the most talent is theoretically concentrated (middle of the human bell curve). And it also happens to be an optimal combination of athleticism and size/strength in the spectrum of weights, an efficient frontier if you will. But Snyder and Sadulaev are just too much better than the rest of the world and too consistent at their weights to deny them right now.
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#27 pamela

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 05:17 AM

The amazing thing about Snyder and Sadulaev, imo, is that they are bigs who wrestle with heavyweight strength but with middleweight-like speed, conditioning and explosiveness - which I think lends itself to superior technique.



#28 sgallan

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 07:11 AM

Don’t even know where to begin with this...

... with the most ridiculous, I guess. Sad is just good at being big?? Is that a serious comment? Do you realize he just went UP 24 lbs and beat everyone except Snyder, whom he took down and led until the final seconds of the match? Apparently, he’s pretty friggin world class at just being small too... Sadulaev is one of the best technicians in the world right now at any weight. He just makes it look so easy that his opponents appear to be a bunch of knuckle dragging plodders. But they’re not.

These P4P discussions always get derailed by the guys who think the lightweight or middleweight guy is more skilled than the heavier guy because they move better or can do things with their lighter bodies that the heavier guys can’t. But it cuts both ways. Wrestling bigger guys requires just as much skill, just different skill. I have been vocal about the heavyweight class being soft relative to the other weights, but 86 kg and even 97 kg is full of studs and the same argument cannot hold there. A 150 lb man will always be able to do things with his body that a 220 lb man cannot due to the laws of scaling (physical abilities do not scale linearly with physical size), but the reverse is also true. If you added 60 lbs to Chamizo through gamma ray exposure and he became the Cuban-Italian Hulk, he himself would not be able to do some of the things little Chamizo can do. It’s literally not physically possible. But he’d be able to do things that little Chamizo can’t do, like move a lot more weight and exert a higher degree of force and power and leverage.

P4P is therefore necessarily subjective and in many ways a flawed concept. But there’s no denying that right now, Snyder and Sadulaev are the class of the wrestling world. Their resumes, and HOW those resumes were built, are too much of an outlier to seriously consider anyone else.

 

This......



#29 GoNotQuietly

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 08:31 AM

great post, nerd. 



#30 pjm46

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Posted Yesterday, 03:30 PM

JB is trying to get Chamizo to move up for a match inspired by the Gross v Merideth match...interesting.

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#31 TheRealOne9050

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Posted Yesterday, 09:30 PM

Wonderful, JB heard my prayers.


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#32 Shiraz123

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Posted Today, 02:39 AM

How come JB does not call out Yazdani. He did mock Yazdani at world cup before the Olympics, saying Yazdani thanked him for not wrestling there.
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#33 TheRealOne9050

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Posted Today, 03:12 AM

Because Yaz is too big. And I'm sure he mocked him out of despair, pushed to the edge by the gazillion "Yaz is gonna beat you in Rio" comments on Instagram, lol.


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#34 Shiraz123

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Posted Today, 03:32 AM

I did not appreciate those comments. However they did turn out to be true.
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#35 pjm46

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Posted Today, 04:54 AM

I did not appreciate those comments. However they did turn out to be true.

 

They didn't actually wrestle.



#36 TheRealOne9050

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Posted Today, 05:27 AM

I did not appreciate those comments. However they did turn out to be true.

 

Yeah, I clearly remember you being annoyed by those, looking forward to watch Yazdani lose in Rio to never hear from him again. Who knew, back then?



#37 Shiraz123

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Posted Today, 05:30 AM

That would have been a beat down. I am thankful it did not happen. 






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