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Matside Weigh-Ins & Locked Line-Ups: 2018 Rule Proposals (Jan 17)

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Locked lineups will increase attrition rates.  Numbers are down and sending in 1st year wrestlers to get slaughtered by age groupers will really be shown.  That is, unless the coach wants to just forfeit ahead of time due to the rule.

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I'm impressed by the NFHS survey and how they try to get people to be for this by stating "To discourage forfeits and the practice of ducking competition during dual meets, requiring schools to submit rosters prior to a dual meet which could not be changed once submitted."

 

Pretty shady in trying to get people to vote for that with trying to pawn it off as if forfeits will be eliminated magically.

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I'm impressed by the NFHS survey and how they try to get people to be for this by stating "To discourage forfeits and the practice of ducking competition during dual meets, requiring schools to submit rosters prior to a dual meet which could not be changed once submitted."

 

Pretty shady in trying to get people to vote for that with trying to pawn it off as if forfeits will be eliminated magically.

I'm actually surprised they took this up. It's been discussed at the NWCA Convention for several years running!

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I don't like the idea of locked lineups.  I'll give an example - you have 2 heavyweights.  One is a go big or go home pinner, and the other guy has a better record but always wrestles a close match, win or lose.  If you get to the HWT match and you're down by 5 points the guy you're going to send out is different than if you get to the HWT match and you're up by 2 points.  If you have locked lineups you're taking away the ability for the coach to make decisions on the fly.

 

Or make it a little more complex and say you're "pin or get pinned" guy is your backup 215 pounder.  You still want to have the ability to shift your lineup around to maximize your chances of winning. 

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I don't like the idea of locked lineups.  I'll give an example - you have 2 heavyweights.  One is a go big or go home pinner, and the other guy has a better record but always wrestles a close match, win or lose.  If you get to the HWT match and you're down by 5 points the guy you're going to send out is different than if you get to the HWT match and you're up by 2 points.  If you have locked lineups you're taking away the ability for the coach to make decisions on the fly.

 

Or make it a little more complex and say you're "pin or get pinned" guy is your backup 215 pounder.  You still want to have the ability to shift your lineup around to maximize your chances of winning. 

 

THIS!!!

 

You wouldn't tell a football coach they could only use one running back for every scenario. Strategies change based on the down and distance. 

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if seeking to compare to other sports, perhaps "true" team sports such as football and baseball are not the best analogy.  however, similar "individually paired" team sports could be considered.  if the US is beating the Europeans in the Ryder Cup on Sunday, the captain can't suddenly change his submitted line-up because his first couple of guys are getting shellacked and he wants to move his best golfer to face their weakest.  The submitted line-up must be followed. In a high school tennis match, you are paired against the comparably ranked player on the other squad.  If wrestling coaches were allowed to manage that sport, they would put their worst kid against the other team's #1 player and then hope that your #1 and #2 can beat their #2 and #3, which would then result in an investigation and forfeit due to ethical violation.  

 

coaches would still be able to employ strategy, based on where they think the other team might put their kids...but 1. it would not be based on the outcome of a coin toss  2. it would not allow you to forfeit without significant repercussions (can't move the kid up to next weight), thereby reducing forfeits  3.  would reduce PO'ed parents and fans who were expecting to see their varsity starter actually wrestle a match (as opposed to being removed for a slightly better kid one weight lower, who was replaced by Mr. Forfeit). 

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if seeking to compare to other sports, perhaps "true" team sports such as football and baseball are not the best analogy.  however, similar "individually paired" team sports could be considered.  if the US is beating the Europeans in the Ryder Cup on Sunday, the captain can't suddenly change his submitted line-up because his first couple of guys are getting shellacked and he wants to move his best golfer to face their weakest.  The submitted line-up must be followed. In a high school tennis match, you are paired against the comparably ranked player on the other squad.  If wrestling coaches were allowed to manage that sport, they would put their worst kid against the other team's #1 player and then hope that your #1 and #2 can beat their #2 and #3, which would then result in an investigation and forfeit due to ethical violation.  

 

coaches would still be able to employ strategy, based on where they think the other team might put their kids...but 1. it would not be based on the outcome of a coin toss  2. it would not allow you to forfeit without significant repercussions (can't move the kid up to next weight), thereby reducing forfeits  3.  would reduce PO'ed parents and fans who were expecting to see their varsity starter actually wrestle a match (as opposed to being removed for a slightly better kid one weight lower, who was replaced by Mr. Forfeit). 

You live in a fantasy world. Locking a lineup does not cure any of the things you WANT it to fix

1. First off the coin toss doesn't decide a dual. Get that out of your mind. I can still pull a switcheroo with a locked lineup. The joy of that is I don't even need the coin toss to pull it off. 

 

2. Doesn't reduce forfeits, I can still bump away from kids if I want to. If a team has a good 152, they will have no clue that I am going to forfeit to their kid. Again, no need for the coin toss, I just do it and they are stuck just as much as I am.

 

3. See above, not going to change anything.

 

Your fixes are for imaginary problems that you think are out there.

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I think that the vast majority of coaches feel that a coin toss CAN decide a dual.  In fact, I would be willing to bet that if in the situations that have been described multiple times on this thread (consider re-reading those), if I can have MY TEAM and WIN the coin toss, I will beat YOUR TEAM.  If you have YOUR TEAM and win the toss, you will probably beat MY TEAM (unless you have no idea what you are doing). However, I will also take YOUR TEAM, and if I win the coin toss, I will beat MY TEAM.  The worst part of this whole thing is that if we swap teams and YOU win the coin toss, you will probably beat MY TEAM (if you have even the slightest clue to strategy), as neither I, nor you, nor Cael, nor Dan, nor Nostradamus will be able to overcome the significance of that coin toss in many situations.

 

Here is a simple survey asking about the importance of a coin toss.  I will post the results in 1 week.  In the meantime, I would ask that for all future coin tosses prior to dual meets, Sen. Dole MUST DEFER choice to the opponent, as he feels it does not ever matter.

 

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/MN9WB8S 

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I think that the vast majority of coaches feel that a coin toss CAN decide a dual.  In fact, I would be willing to bet that if in the situations that have been described multiple times on this thread (consider re-reading those), if I can have MY TEAM and WIN the coin toss, I will beat YOUR TEAM.  If you have YOUR TEAM and win the toss, you will probably beat MY TEAM (unless you have no idea what you are doing). However, I will also take YOUR TEAM, and if I win the coin toss, I will beat MY TEAM.  The worst part of this whole thing is that if we swap teams and YOU win the coin toss, you will probably beat MY TEAM (if you have even the slightest clue to strategy), as neither I, nor you, nor Cael, nor Dan, nor Nostradamus will be able to overcome the significance of that coin toss in many situations.

 

Here is a simple survey asking about the importance of a coin toss.  I will post the results in 1 week.  In the meantime, I would ask that for all future coin tosses prior to dual meets, Sen. Dole MUST DEFER choice to the opponent, as he feels it does not ever matter.

 

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/MN9WB8S 

It is amazing that you think the coin toss decides the dual. Maybe you shouldn't lose the overtime matches or get pinned or give up majors. Those things decide the matches. A coin toss supposedly deciding a match just means there are two very evenly matched teams going head to head. Maybe my perspective is way different, but when my team loses a close dual I look at close matches or bonus points instead of the coin flip.

 

Maybe you should just have a dual where you rule the winning team the winner of the coin flip then go home. It would be a lot less hassle because obviously you put not stock in the actual matches that take place.

 

What are you going to blame your loss on after you have locked lineups? I'm curious what rule you'll try to "fix" so that your team never loses. Obviously you put no stock in coaching your kids up, so it has to be a rule why you keep losing and not that the other team is better that day.

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I think that the vast majority of coaches feel that a coin toss CAN decide a dual.  In fact, I would be willing to bet that if in the situations that have been described multiple times on this thread (consider re-reading those), if I can have MY TEAM and WIN the coin toss, I will beat YOUR TEAM.  If you have YOUR TEAM and win the toss, you will probably beat MY TEAM (unless you have no idea what you are doing). However, I will also take YOUR TEAM, and if I win the coin toss, I will beat MY TEAM.  The worst part of this whole thing is that if we swap teams and YOU win the coin toss, you will probably beat MY TEAM (if you have even the slightest clue to strategy), as neither I, nor you, nor Cael, nor Dan, nor Nostradamus will be able to overcome the significance of that coin toss in many situations.

 

Here is a simple survey asking about the importance of a coin toss.  I will post the results in 1 week.  In the meantime, I would ask that for all future coin tosses prior to dual meets, Sen. Dole MUST DEFER choice to the opponent, as he feels it does not ever matter.

 

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/MN9WB8S 

Nice survey, not baiting people into the answers you want by any means. Great job with a neutral survey.

 

1. In an otherwise even match up of two high school teams in a dual meet, can the COIN TOSS determine the outcome of the match?
Yes, despite my best efforts, the coin toss can determine the winning team
No, I can negate the impact of any coin toss with my brilliance...and will win the dual (or lose) whether I win the toss or lose the toss
 
No, there are many factors that go into a dual meet including close matches, bonus points, and coaching.
Here are things that decide close duals

1. Close matches

2. Overtime matches

3. Bonus points

4. Close referee calls

5. Coaching up lesser kids

6. Coaching up better kids to get bonus points

 
2. Would a locked line-up reduce the number of forfeits in a high school dual meet?
Yes
No
No, if a coach wants to forfeit to a stud they will do so anyway. The opposing coach will still be forced to throw out their stud to get the forfeit.
 
3. Would increasing the value of a forfeit from 6 team points to 7 team points reduce the number of forfeits?
Yes, the number of forfeits would be reduce
No, the number of forfeits would not be reduced
 
No, teams forfeit because they don't have a wrestler at that weight that day. 

 

Maybe, just maybe some day I'll look back at a dual and say "darn we lost because of the coin flip," but that day has yet to come. I look at things I can control as to how to win a dual. I can control my kids' effort and having them prepared for a battle. I can't imagine how bad of a coach there is that goes up to his kids after a close dual and says "we lost because we lost the coin flip, nevermind the three pins we gave up or that our best guy only got a regular decision."

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As a coach, i am not a fan of locked lineups, especially if they are blind submissions to the lineups.  There is some strategy involved in who you send out and when.  We were wrestling our region dual opening match.  The draw came out at 160.  We were going to send our state champion out against their one of the best wrestlers who was also at 160.  We sent our wrestler and then they forfeited.  Before our wrestler stepped on the mat, yes he had checked in, I withdrew him and threw in a freshman to accept the forfeit.  How does this happen?  Knowledge of the rules.  I had every intention of my 160 competing and no thought of bumping him up to 170 until they forfeited to him.   I then realized they had the odd matches and they had to send first.  Once they were checked in, in correct order, the wrestlers could not be withdrawn.  Even though my guy was sent first, it was not in correct order.  Once they "sent" in a forfeit, I could withdraw my kid and send in the freshman per the case book and NFHS rules.  We spent 10 minutes at the table because the referees hadn't ever seen that done before.  I showed them the case book where it says you can.  The called the head referee over.  They called the state rules interpreter.  It was perfectly legal to do what I had done.

 

Again, I had no intention of baiting them into forfeiting.  We genuinely believed with their lineup that the match would happen at 160 and they were better off keeping their lineup in place instead of bumping.  A blind locked in lineup would have swung the dual meet in their favor.  On the fly strategy, knowledge of the rules, and last second line up adjustments swung the dual in our favor.  

Edited by neutralposition

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...and the coin toss

Without the coin toss the forfeit to their best kid stands and the shift wins the other team the dual.

 

So many different scenarios that you're trying to prevent are causing conflicts here, which street are you going to go down?

 

If this is a locked lineup situation the forfeit to the best kid stands and mommy and daddy are upset in the stands crying foul.

Without the coin flip we don't get to see a good match because of the coach not knowing the rules. 

 

So the coin flip prevented a forfeit to a stud in this situation. Without it, the forfeit is there and we don't get to see a stud wrestle.

 

Boy....this is a conundrum for you isn't it?

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If anybody tells you the lack of a coin flip is a solution to reduce forfeits, I seriously question what their motives are. The double-blind setting of lineups has its purpose, but reducing forfeits isn't it. My point was that it's fairer than the colored disc toss, and takes the element of chance largely out of things. My idea, which was that each coach (before weigh-ins) declared three weights that forfeiting to them would be worth eight points, wouldn't reduce forfeits either, but would reduce forfeits to the best wrestlers. Pretty sure none of the fans show up to see a team's best wrestler get their arms raised without actually wrestling, and this would resolve that.

 

Maybe the idea is to tie a wrestler to a weight class, but allow teams to list multiple wrestlers at a weight (up to 20 guys). This is a system similar to what is done in volleyball, where when a substitute is subbed into a slot in the lineup, the person he's replacing can only go back in in that slot (ie. for the same guy).

 

But again, if I'm not mistaken, high school athletics (wrestling included) ought to be about the kids, not the coaches. What neutralposition and BobDole have mentioned are making it about them...

 

Dismounts from soapbox, and totally botches the landing.

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If anybody tells you the lack of a coin flip is a solution to reduce forfeits, I seriously question what their motives are. The double-blind setting of lineups has its purpose, but reducing forfeits isn't it. My point was that it's fairer than the colored disc toss, and takes the element of chance largely out of things. My idea, which was that each coach (before weigh-ins) declared three weights that forfeiting to them would be worth eight points, wouldn't reduce forfeits either, but would reduce forfeits to the best wrestlers. Pretty sure none of the fans show up to see a team's best wrestler get their arms raised without actually wrestling, and this would resolve that.

 

Maybe the idea is to tie a wrestler to a weight class, but allow teams to list multiple wrestlers at a weight (up to 20 guys). This is a system similar to what is done in volleyball, where when a substitute is subbed into a slot in the lineup, the person he's replacing can only go back in in that slot (ie. for the same guy).

 

But again, if I'm not mistaken, high school athletics (wrestling included) ought to be about the kids, not the coaches. What neutralposition and BobDole have mentioned are making it about them...

 

Dismounts from soapbox, and totally botches the landing.

Don't make things more complicated than they need to be.

 

Your plan of the 8 point forfeit has a fatal flaw though. If I know the other team has been forfeiting a weight all year long, I will certainly tell them that that weight is an 8 point forfeit weight. 

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Don't make things more complicated than they need to be.

 

Your plan of the 8 point forfeit has a fatal flaw though. If I know the other team has been forfeiting a weight all year long, I will certainly tell them that that weight is an 8 point forfeit weight. 

And they'll make sure to have a wrestler at that weight...if they have nobody close to that weight, they probably aren't a threat to win the dual meet anyway.

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And they'll make sure to have a wrestler at that weight...if they have nobody close to that weight, they probably aren't a threat to win the dual meet anyway.

Bad assumption, most forfeits are at lower weights and and most teams are truly trying to fill all their weights. There are many times were a team has a forfeit or two and still win duals or are able to win the dual.

 

In your scenario where I get three 8 point forfeit weights and I know the team we are facing hasn't had a 113lber all season. I'll tell them 106 and 113 and XXX weight are the 8 point weights. So thus even if they bump up their 106 I'm still getting one 8 point forfeit.

 

The only reasonable fix would be 8 point forfeits if you weigh-in a healthy and eligible wrestler at that weight. However you get into a sticky situation when you have to determine if a kid is healthy. Many states also require kids to have X amount of weigh-ins even if they don't wrestle, so there are times where a kid is injured or suspended that they weigh-in to accumulate the weigh-ins to be eligible for the state series.

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The most forfeited weight according to NY data is 195

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not surprising that it is an upper weight since 7th and 8th graders can wrestle.

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In CT (as with most states), highest vacancies at both ends of the spectrum.  With 100 teams, the following shows the number of wrestlers entered in post-season action at each weight class.  Please note that due to a handful of "one man teams" that may have 1-2 wrestlers (not part of the 100 "team" count), the actual number of vacancies is slightly higher.  Roughly 75% for 106/113, 85% from 120-170, then a little under 75% for upper 4 weights.  Again, only data from 1 small state...but a start.

 

2018 Entered 106 72 113 79 120 86 126 80 132 89 138 85 145 85 152 85 160 84 170 89 182 76 195 70 220 77 285 64

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Bad assumption, most forfeits are at lower weights and and most teams are truly trying to fill all their weights. There are many times were a team has a forfeit or two and still win duals or are able to win the dual.

 

In your scenario where I get three 8 point forfeit weights and I know the team we are facing hasn't had a 113lber all season. I'll tell them 106 and 113 and XXX weight are the 8 point weights. So thus even if they bump up their 106 I'm still getting one 8 point forfeit.

 

The only reasonable fix would be 8 point forfeits if you weigh-in a healthy and eligible wrestler at that weight. However you get into a sticky situation when you have to determine if a kid is healthy. Many states also require kids to have X amount of weigh-ins even if they don't wrestle, so there are times where a kid is injured or suspended that they weigh-in to accumulate the weigh-ins to be eligible for the state series.

Well, there you go...that's a gamble you'd be willing to take.

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Well, there you go...that's a gamble you'd be willing to take.

Less rules, not more. No matter how many rules you put in, coaches will find a way around them.

 

The current lineup and coin flip procedures are fine, there is no need to change them. If you get out coached, get better, plain and simple. 

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I like the idea of coaches being able to adjust their strategy during the dual meet. I think it makes those type of matches more exciting. 

 

If you want to decrease the forfeits you see at the varsity level, you need to increase the wrestling opportunities in the sport for more athletes to participate when they are younger. Build the pipeline of future wrestlers. 

 

Create different skill levels so wrestlers have a chance to compete. Allow teams to enter multiple wrestlers at a tournament. Why should a team that has two kids in a weight class and no kids at another weight class be forced to keep that wrestler home. 

 

In Illinois, they are restricted to how many tournaments a team can wrestle in. Why not let a team that has fewer wrestlers go to more tournaments and less dual meets. I mean who is going to want to schedule a dual meet when one team only have five wrestlers. Maybe do a match restriction instead of how many duals and tournaments a wrestler can participate in (I know this rule varies by state).

 

My son is going into high school and is looking at what sports to play. One sport he is looking at has 7 different skill levels for him to play at. He is not a top player but enjoys the sport at the appropriate level. He would not be competitive at the highest level for his age group. 

Doing this will increase numbers more so than allowing kids to wear a two piece uniform....

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One other dual I was coaching, we had resigned ourselves to the likelihood that our 189 was going to win and our 215 was going to lose by fall.  We thought we could still win the dual with our lineup, but the middle of the lineup didn't fare so well.  At that point we knew what the end result would be; that they were going to win the dual.  We were down 33 - 12.  Well, time to roll the proverbial dice.  I looked for the best opportunity to shake things up, and decided to move in a sophomore to try to swing the match in our favor.  We decided the 2nd to the last match we would insert our sophomore non-starter at 189, he barely weighed 165, and bump the 189 to 215.  Well, it worked.  Our sophomore stepped up and had a great match.  He was leading by 9 or 10 when his opponent was penalized for the 4th time.  We got the DQ in our favor.  We would have gotten 4 team points but instead got 6.  Our 189 then rose to the occasion and beat their stud 215 pounder by major decision.  Our regular would have gotten pinned there.  Instead we took 4 points.  The dual meet final score was 36-33. 

 

With locked lineups and without the ability to shift, to evaluate during the dual, to roll the dice when needed, we would have lost that dual 39-32.  While the head coach was working the kids on the mat, I was working the numbers in the score book.  I threw the idea down for him to consider, he trusted in my judgment, we went for it, and we came roaring back for a big win, 36-33  It was one of the most intense dual meets I had ever been a part of and locked lineups would have made it just another day on the mat instead of an incredible bonding moment with our team and our guys.

Edited by neutralposition

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