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Matside Weigh-Ins & Locked Line-Ups: 2018 Rule Proposals (Jan 17)

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Please quit making rules.

 

Submitting a locked lineup will not prevent forfeits, if a team wants to duck someone they will do it.

 

Submitting a locked lineup will also prevent shifting of your lineup to better your chances for a win.

 

Dumb idea.

Agreed

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How much more often does the team which wins the flip win the dual meet?  It would be nice to have some actual statistics, rather than impressions and anecdotes.  If the numbers are skewed heavily in favor of the team which wins the flip, it would be a matter worth considering.  If not... not.

 

Assuming there is a problem, flipping before each match to see who sent out first would certainly shake things up, while letting coaches retain their ability to make choices as the meet progressed.  This would be a nuisance, of course, but you might make it an option:  either coach could request this arrangement before the initial flip.  Most of the time they wouldn't, and things would be just like they are now.

 

Matside weigh-ins require more work at the table, which must be accounted for, but they also eliminate the regular weigh-ins, and potentially a lot of bracket changes.  They might also reduce the need for bureaucracy with the weight certification process.  Eliminating incentives for bad behavior is often easier and more effective than regulating it.

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How much more often does the team which wins the flip win the dual meet? It would be nice to have some actual statistics, rather than impressions and anecdotes. If the numbers are skewed heavily in favor of the team which wins the flip, it would be a matter worth considering. If not... not.

 

Assuming there is a problem, flipping before each match to see who sent out first would certainly shake things up, while letting coaches retain their ability to make choices as the meet progressed. This would be a nuisance, of course, but you might make it an option: either coach could request this arrangement before the initial flip. Most of the time they wouldn't, and things would be just like they are now.

 

Matside weigh-ins require more work at the table, which must be accounted for, but they also eliminate the regular weigh-ins, and potentially a lot of bracket changes. They might also reduce the need for bureaucracy with the weight certification process. Eliminating incentives for bad behavior is often easier and more effective than regulating it.

When it comes to sending out first, it really only as an impact in one match per dual. So a coach wants to win the flip in the weight that matters. Consequently, one flip would likely have the same impact discouraging the problems identified here as flipping for each match.

 

We need to do everything to avoid rewarding the wrestler that pulls weight the medically inappropriate way. Mat side weigh ins would do that. I think college needs the same rule.

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But again, if I'm not mistaken, high school athletics (wrestling included) ought to be about the kids, not the coaches. What neutralposition and BobDole have mentioned are making it about them...

 

 

 

 

I disagree. it's all about the coach. great coaches create dynasties. great coaches can think on the fly and shuffle a lineup to help his athletes compete at their best and achieve the most.

 

 

 

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Like every other governed entity in society, a few cheat and/or break the rules and the rest have to be punished/over administrated.

Both ideas are dumb to no end.

 

Locked In: have some integrity and send your guy.  Stop killing the sport, give kids matches.  On that end, if you have a hammer and you know the other kid is "just a match" use your judgement and tell your kid not to put on a show.  Take him down and pin the kid without making an ass out of him.

 

Mat side weigh ins: for dual-meets I really couldn't care less.  For tournaments it is an absolute logistical nightmare and tournament momentum killer.  We already spend too much time in a gym and time between bouts is a huge factor and difference between well run events and those to avoid.  

 

How many overly aggressive weight management tools can we administrate in one sport?

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Also, 8 point forfeits period.  If you want to penalize, the penalize in black and white.

None of this eligible guys weighed in crap.  

 

Coaches get paid to protect their athletes first.  Whether you philosophically agree with this or not, it is a fact as they're employed by individual districts.

If they want to protect their kid from injury, seed, whatever than that is their prerogative.  Whether you like it, agree with it, or even care about it is up to them to decide and their district to monitor.  

 

I can tell you this for a fact (without data of course, it is the internet), coaches that consistently duck matches to protect their athletes are doing those kids no favors, period.  The kid knows when a coach believes in him or not.  

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and eventually, he wants to be the champ. can't duck anyone at state.

 

 

 

I can tell you this for a fact (without data of course, it is the internet), coaches that consistently duck matches to protect their athletes are doing those kids no favors, period.  The kid knows when a coach believes in him or not.  

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We already spend too much time in a gym and time between bouts is a huge factor and difference between well run events and those to avoid.

This is certainly true. Reducing the amount of time athletes and parents waste in gyms should be a top priority.

 

Mat side weigh ins: for dual-meets I really couldn't care less.  For tournaments it is an absolute logistical nightmare and tournament momentum killer.

This assumes that the table will wait until one match ends before weighing in the next match. That really would be stupid. Any reasonable scheme would have next match weigh in while the previous one was still running. This would oblige the athletes to show up early and check in at the table... which is exactly what should be happening to minimize downtime anyway.

 

The logistical implications of this can be debated, but mat downtime and longer tournaments don't seem to be valid drawbacks.

 

In fact, consider how we might actually solve the wasted time problem. If I'm going to wrestle five matches to win a tournament, the ideal case might be that I got in and out in two and a half hours (perhaps; adjust to taste). This can be done; perhaps my weight class is scheduled to compete at 2 in the afternoon, and run until 5:30. I certainly don't want to show up for an 8am weigh-in, then. And keeping the weigh-in area open throughout the day would be a nuisance. Mat-side weigh-ins work well in such a scheme.

 

How many overly aggressive weight management tools can we administrate in one sport?

I should like to see zero overly aggressive ones, and as few sensible ones as will get the job done adequately. I'm interested in eliminating administrative chores, or replacing them with lighter ones, not adding more.

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You solutions are imaginative and good ideas, except:

 

Mat-side weigh ins: the fact that most HS tournaments are already lacking in help particularly competent help.....

Adding another piece to the puzzle, as well as another competent helper to facilitate it (pre-match weigh in at the table) isn't as easy 

as you suggest.  If you're talking about major events and top tournaments than sure people will line up to help and take a few bucks to do it.

The average HS tournament will be a complete crap show.  

 

Your 2.5 hour weight class window idea: I like it, but know it is impossible based on HS travel accommodations.  No district is going to arrange separate travel arrangements for individuals when they are already skeptical of funding the sport in the first place.  It isn't feasible.

 

If the federation and states are already overseeing the safety of our athletes, and these weight management systems are data proven to be effective, then what are we talking about?

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Here is a thought:

 

Assuming

1. Weight Certifications......place a kid at a MWW.

 

2.  *50% weigh in rule should be in effect

 

3.  You could implement mat-side weigh ins at dual meets and all dual meet tournaments

This would put the onus coaches and athletes to be in a proper weight for the majority of their competitions.  This would include the STATE Championship series for the states that have it.

 

4. Traditional Individual Tournament Weigh Ins 

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Your 2.5 hour weight class window idea: I like it, but know it is impossible based on HS travel accommodations.  No district is going to arrange separate travel arrangements for individuals when they are already skeptical of funding the sport in the first place.  It isn't feasible.

I wasn't thinking of school-based high school tournaments, which are a small minority of the tournaments run. I probably should have been, though, as this is the "High School" section.

 

Taking up that angle, though: you are correct about the athletes' travel to the tournament; it would be silly to even try. Travel from the tournament is another matter, though, as parents often take their kids home, rather than letting them take the bus. This means some percentage of athletes can leave early. And the advantage of being able to tell parents when to show up in order to see their kid(s) compete is worth considering.

 

On the flip side of that: idle athletes tend to cause problems. Athletes who know they have nothing to do for hours are probably a liability. And having all the athletes of certain weights leave early would undermine the team aspect of these things.

 

It's not an entirely natural fit for school-based high school tournaments. I think it's the direction we need to take for open tournaments, though.

 

Mat-side weigh ins: the fact that most HS tournaments are already lacking in help particularly competent help.....

Adding another piece to the puzzle, as well as another competent helper to facilitate it (pre-match weigh in at the table) isn't as easy 

as you suggest. If you're talking about major events and top tournaments than sure people will line up to help and take a few bucks to do it.

The average HS tournament will be a complete crap show.

Possibly. I don't think we should wave away the burden of implementing any mechanism. On the other hand, eliminating the traditional weigh-in is a mitigating factor (though you'd still need a skin check). Assuming one scale serving two mats, an eight-mat tournament might need four people to sit around, with one simple thing to do every several minutes. This doesn't spell "disaster" to my mind, but people do have a knack for making a mess of things.

 

If the federation and states are already overseeing the safety of our athletes, and these weight management systems are data proven to be effective, then what are we talking about?

The fact that the system is burdensome and (I believe) expensive?

 

No doubt, we should stick with a proven system until we have a proven alternative. Mat-side weigh-ins should build up some kind of track record in open tournaments, probably at the youth level, before they're even considered for the high school season.

Edited by Ray_Brinzer

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I wasn't thinking of school-based high school tournaments, which are a small minority of the tournaments run. I probably should have been, though, as this is the "High School" section.

 

Taking up that angle, though: you are correct about the athletes' travel to the tournament; it would be silly to even try. Travel from the tournament is another matter, though, as parents often take their kids home, rather than letting them take the bus. This means some percentage of athletes can leave early. And the advantage of being able to tell parents when to show up in order to see their kid(s) compete is an advantage worth considering.

 

On the flip side of that: idle athletes tend to cause problems. Athletes who know they have nothing to do for hours are probably a liability. And having all the athletes of certain weights leave early would undermine the team aspect of these things.

 

It's not an entirely natural fit for school-based high school tournaments. I think it's the direction we need to take for open tournaments, though.

 

 

Possibly. I don't think we should wave away the burden of implementing any mechanism. On the other hand, eliminating the traditional weigh-in is a mitigating factor (though you'd still need a skin check). Assuming one scale serving two mats, an eight-mat tournament might need four people to sit around, with one simple thing to do every several minutes. This doesn't spell "disaster" to my mind, but people do have a knack for making a mess of things.

 

 

The fact that the system is burdensome and (I believe) expensive?

 

No doubt, we should stick with a proven system until we have a proven alternative. Mat-side weigh-ins should build up some kind of track record in open tournaments, probably at the youth level, before they're even considered for the high school season.

 

Youth Tournaments, open tournaments....two hour windows are no doubt the move.  Matside weigh ins, fine though at youth tournaments that would present the same issue at a level where the events are run even more poorly than they are at HS.  

HS Tournaments.....these are the proposed changes so that is why I have the strong opinion.  

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HS Tournaments.....these are the proposed changes so that is why I have the strong opinion.

I took this as the original poster kicking around ideas. I hope no one actually wants to pass a rule with zero proof-of-concept work done. I think mat-side weigh-ins can be made to work well, but you just don't change everything because you have an idea that seems good in your head.

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Taking up that angle, though: you are correct about the athletes' travel to the tournament; it would be silly to even try. Travel from the tournament is another matter, though, as parents often take their kids home, rather than letting them take the bus. This means some percentage of athletes can leave early. And the advantage of being able to tell parents when to show up in order to see their kid(s) compete is worth considering.

 

 

Riding home with a parent is not exactly as cut and dry as you are trying to put it. This type of rule is different from state to state, school district to school district. It used to be pretty easy to ride home with a parent, but in today's litigious society it takes about 19 signatures for a kid to ride home with a parent these days.

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Riding home with a parent is not exactly as cut and dry as you are trying to put it. This type of rule is different from state to state, school district to school district. It used to be pretty easy to ride home with a parent, but in today's litigious society it takes about 19 signatures for a kid to ride home with a parent these days.

It's not an issue with the school that I coach. Naturally, different schools and states will have different policies... and the parents can potentially influence those, if they have reason to. But yes, sure, as with most things this advantage probably isn't equally advantageous everywhere.

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Not a fan of the locked lineups, but also not a fan of coin flips and the even/odd junk. Has anyone suggested that if no one wants to send their wrestler out first that both coaches must write down the name of their wrestler and give it to the ref/table without knowing who the other coach is writing. Doesn’t have to be before the whole dual. Doing it just before each match would solve a lot of the issues. It would even work with mat side weigh in. Weigh in two guys if you want, just write one name down immediately after.

 

Sorry if someone else suggested it, didn’t read through the whole thread

Edited by simple

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Not a fan of the locked lineups, but also not a fan of coin flips and the even/odd junk. Has anyone suggested that if no one wants to send their wrestler out first that both coaches must write down the name of their wrestler and give it to the ref/table without knowing who the other coach is writing. Doesn’t have to be before the whole dual. Doing it just before each match would solve a lot of the issues. It would even work with mat side weigh in. Weigh in two guys if you want, just write one name down immediately after.

 

Sorry if someone else suggested it, didn’t read through the whole thread

And then does the ref call the wrestlers out like they are on the Price is Right?

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I guess I never realized how much some coaches despise the coin flip.

 

As a coach I always love a little challenge of being able to manipulate my lineup to secure some extra points in a close dual meet.

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I guess I never realized how much some coaches despise the coin flip.

 

As a coach I always love a little challenge of being able to manipulate my lineup to secure some extra points in a close dual meet.

It is arbitrary however.

You pull a weight to determine where to start (should be random), then you flip a coin for Odd/Even (a second random waste of time).

If you assign the home team Odd/Even then it isn't necessary.

 

That is why I hate it.  I hate unnecessary dumb wastes of time.

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It is arbitrary however.

You pull a weight to determine where to start (should be random), then you flip a coin for Odd/Even (a second random waste of time).

If you assign the home team Odd/Even then it isn't necessary.

 

That is why I hate it.  I hate unnecessary dumb wastes of time.

The biggest issue with that is events with multiple duals. 

1. The starting weight jumps up every time, so not random

2. Home team is always an "iffy" situation since it is just randomly picked for most duals. I could imagine a coach running over to the mat before a match demanding to be the home team because they want a certain match-up.

 

I agree in 95% of the duals out there the coin flip is a waste of time because the results are not going to change even with a lineup shift. However, it usually isn't more than a couple minute thing and is usually done before the event is scheduled to start

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The biggest issue with that is events with multiple duals. 

1. The starting weight jumps up every time, so not random

2. Home team is always an "iffy" situation since it is just randomly picked for most duals. I could imagine a coach running over to the mat before a match demanding to be the home team because they want a certain match-up.

 

I agree in 95% of the duals out there the coin flip is a waste of time because the results are not going to change even with a lineup shift. However, it usually isn't more than a couple minute thing and is usually done before the event is scheduled to start

Dual meet tournaments are stupid in general unless they lead to a state title.

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