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Matside Weigh-Ins & Locked Line-Ups: 2018 Rule Proposals (Jan 17)


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#21 gimpeltf

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 06:31 AM

Because of liability. If a kid gets hurt during warm-up AFTER the lineup is submitted and is forced to wrestle that opens up an avenue for litigation.

 

It's a dumb idea also. 

 

I don't have a full opinion on this, but how could someone ever be 'forced' to wrestle? I fairly regularly set up an event and someone comes up and says they got hurt or sick since weighins (or they were hoping they'd be ok by then and weren't). It's a forfeit. If I get this plan they might not be able to move someone from another weight but that's all. That doesn't put a gun to the kid's head. No different to the tournament scenario. That kid is locked in there too and no one else can move up to take his place.



#22 BobDole

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 07:37 AM

I don't have a full opinion on this, but how could someone ever be 'forced' to wrestle? I fairly regularly set up an event and someone comes up and says they got hurt or sick since weighins (or they were hoping they'd be ok by then and weren't). It's a forfeit. If I get this plan they might not be able to move someone from another weight but that's all. That doesn't put a gun to the kid's head. No different to the tournament scenario. That kid is locked in there too and no one else can move up to take his place.

With this stupid "rule" coaches would be FORCED to put in an injured kid instead of a backup. Plus a forfeit is probably frowned upon with this whole "locked" lineup thing also. I thought this was supposed to prevent forfeits. 



#23 Zebra

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 09:14 AM

Locked in lineups are stupid and will never happen. 

 

Mat-side weigh-ins however are a good idea and regardless of the naysayers can be easily implemented at dual meets and tournaments. For duals you need 1 scale at the table for tournaments you have 2-3 scales at the head table where the wrestlers report to weigh-in and get their bout sheet, if they make weight of course.     



#24 gimpeltf

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 09:42 AM

With this stupid "rule" coaches would be FORCED to put in an injured kid instead of a backup. Plus a forfeit is probably frowned upon with this whole "locked" lineup thing also. I thought this was supposed to prevent forfeits. 

 

 

I just read it and don't like it but not for this reason. The coaches would also not have a gun to their heads to wrestle somebody. If they're hurt they're hurt. And nowhere in the original statement did the op say it would eliminate forfeits. He said it would reduce forfeits. I don't see where it says they can only weighin one kid per weight. He might have meant that but I didn't see it in a quick read through.

I've been opposed to matside weighins since they were first suggested- especially since 1998. My original main reason probably doesn't factor in as much 20 years later- that being that what happens if a kid still does cut too much and has a problem at matside. This would happen in public and would be an unmitigated disaster. This possibility would still be the case, however after 20 years of 1-2 hour weighins and more education I think this very unlikely. But even with people saying how simple this would be to implement logistically- it would be a mess. The suggestion was that the ref would monitor the weighins. This means extra time between every bout and inevitable arguments if anyone was close. It would require larger crews at tournaments. The people doing weighins have to come from somewhere.



#25 Zebra

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 11:04 AM

 

I've been opposed to matside weighins since they were first suggested- especially since 1998. My original main reason probably doesn't factor in as much 20 years later- that being that what happens if a kid still does cut too much and has a problem at matside. This would happen in public and would be an unmitigated disaster. This possibility would still be the case, however after 20 years of 1-2 hour weighins and more education I think this very unlikely. But even with people saying how simple this would be to implement logistically- it would be a mess. The suggestion was that the ref would monitor the weighins. This means extra time between every bout and inevitable arguments if anyone was close. It would require larger crews at tournaments. The people doing weighins have to come from somewhere.

 

 

None of that is true. You make weight just how you're going to step on the mat (knee pad, headgear, mouthpiece, etc.) or you are DQ'd immediately. No allowances at all, even between rounds of a tournament. The only caveat would be 1 pound for day two of a two day event and then only because it is in the rule book.   

 

For tournaments the guy (or gal) who hands out the bout sheet will see them step on the scale. There is no need for an additional person at all. If it's run automatically on Track then they have to report to the head table where 1 person, who would already be there, checks their weight. If they are good then they can head to the mat. If not immediate DQ. You're done, go sit in the stands and watch.   

 

Will it stop all big weight cutters, nope. But it will reduce them as eventually they'll get DQ'd in the middle of a tournament and move up a weight class.You don't want to be embarrassed then stop cutting too much weight. It's pretty simple and self policing. 



#26 gimpeltf

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 11:13 AM

None of that is true. You make weight just how you're going to step on the mat (knee pad, headgear, mouthpiece, etc.) or you are DQ'd immediately. No allowances at all, even between rounds of a tournament. The only caveat would be 1 pound for day two of a two day event and then only because it is in the rule book.   

 

For tournaments the guy (or gal) who hands out the bout sheet will see them step on the scale. There is no need for an additional person at all. If it's run automatically on Track then they have to report to the head table where 1 person, who would already be there, checks their weight. If they are good then they can head to the mat. If not immediate DQ. You're done, go sit in the stands and watch.   

 

Will it stop all big weight cutters, nope. But it will reduce them as eventually they'll get DQ'd in the middle of a tournament and move up a weight class.You don't want to be embarrassed then stop cutting too much weight. It's pretty simple and self policing. 

Not much of that is true. First, I haven't used bout sheets in a couple of years. But my reference was to the op who specifically said referees would do the weighins. And nothing is immediate. And what person at the head table is already there doing nothing? I run a number of events almost completely by myself. I wouldn't have time to check weights at the beginning when most weighins would happen and I might have to deal with new people at the tables or possibly some errors coming out of registration. I'm usually pretty busy that first hour. And when you dq the guy, I'm sure he will always quietly take his place in the stands.



#27 Zebra

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 12:38 PM

Not much of that is true. First, I haven't used bout sheets in a couple of years. But my reference was to the op who specifically said referees would do the weighins. And nothing is immediate. And what person at the head table is already there doing nothing? I run a number of events almost completely by myself. I wouldn't have time to check weights at the beginning when most weighins would happen and I might have to deal with new people at the tables or possibly some errors coming out of registration. I'm usually pretty busy that first hour. And when you dq the guy, I'm sure he will always quietly take his place in the stands.

 

I've run lots of tournaments and reffed hundreds there are always have 2-3 people around. Nobody runs a high school tournament by themselves.  Failure to prepare adequately is not an excuse. 

 

Look I really don't care what a person thinks about getting DQd. If they don't quietly go up into the stands they can be escorted out of the building. I've had it done before.  



#28 gimpeltf

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 01:41 PM

I've run lots of tournaments and reffed hundreds there are always have 2-3 people around. Nobody runs a high school tournament by themselves.  Failure to prepare adequately is not an excuse. 

 

Look I really don't care what a person thinks about getting DQd. If they don't quietly go up into the stands they can be escorted out of the building. I've had it done before.  

 

I'll put my tournament resume up against anyone. In the college opens I run, I'm generally by myself as far as head table/computer goes. Usually some help from the host coach but that's more dealing with table help and physical set up.I'm sure they could get people there if needed but it would be someone that either wasn't there or was doing something else. The people working tables are often the same doing weighins before things get going. It's an extra moving part. I'm sure it could be done but it's not the simplistic thing you think it is.



#29 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 03:33 PM

Because of liability. If a kid gets hurt during warm-up AFTER the lineup is submitted and is forced to wrestle that opens up an avenue for litigation.

 

It's a dumb idea also. 

That first part is a very fair point, and I hadn't thought of that. My suggestion, as discussed (publicly, on twitter) with multiple college coaches, was have the current one-hour weigh-ins, and then the simultaneous lineup exchange be 10-15 minutes before the meet is scheduled to start. I've seen wrestlers get hurt between weigh-ins and wrestling before, but not in that time-frame.

 

Regardless of your stance on this discussion, surely there has to be a better way than one where there can be as much as a 10-15 point swing based on the results of the coin toss. That, I would argue, is too much.


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#30 Zebra

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 04:02 PM

I'll put my tournament resume up against anyone. In the college opens I run, I'm generally by myself as far as head table/computer goes. Usually some help from the host coach but that's more dealing with table help and physical set up.I'm sure they could get people there if needed but it would be someone that either wasn't there or was doing something else. The people working tables are often the same doing weighins before things get going. It's an extra moving part. I'm sure it could be done but it's not the simplistic thing you think it is.

Yes it is, you're just making excuses. 



#31 BobDole

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 04:15 PM

That first part is a very fair point, and I hadn't thought of that. My suggestion, as discussed (publicly, on twitter) with multiple college coaches, was have the current one-hour weigh-ins, and then the simultaneous lineup exchange be 10-15 minutes before the meet is scheduled to start. I've seen wrestlers get hurt between weigh-ins and wrestling before, but not in that time-frame.

 

Regardless of your stance on this discussion, surely there has to be a better way than one where there can be as much as a 10-15 point swing based on the results of the coin toss. That, I would argue, is too much.

If there is that much of a difference because of a coin flip then that is good coaching and strategy. It's like a football coach blitzing on first down because they know the other team is going to run the ball. 

 

The thing is even with a locked lineup I can still pull a switcheroo and the other team can't do anything about it. It's more of a gamble, but the other coach is gambling also. The only difference is the coach might have a little more heads up.



#32 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 05:08 PM

If there is that much of a difference because of a coin flip then that is good coaching and strategy. It's like a football coach blitzing on first down because they know the other team is going to run the ball. 

 

The thing is even with a locked lineup I can still pull a switcheroo and the other team can't do anything about it. It's more of a gamble, but the other coach is gambling also. The only difference is the coach might have a little more heads up.

The later statement is absolutely true, the difference being both sides can pull the switcheroo and the other team can't do anything about it, and further, both sides could end up pulling the same switcheroo and making the original one moot! As far as the former, I'm not sure if it's merely good coaching if only one side gets to do it at the optimal time.


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#33 BobDole

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 03:16 AM

The later statement is absolutely true, the difference being both sides can pull the switcheroo and the other team can't do anything about it, and further, both sides could end up pulling the same switcheroo and making the original one moot! As far as the former, I'm not sure if it's merely good coaching if only one side gets to do it at the optimal time.

It's good strategy and good coaching when you manipulate your lineup to earn more points. I saw a team bump up a #1 ranked guy to wrestle another #1 guy to decide the dual. That was fun and I'm sure the team was only planning on doing that if the score was within X amount of points at a certain point. Having the option to do that made the dual exciting. If they just went straight up because they were locked down it would have been a boring end to a great dual.

 

On top of that it won't prevent forfeits, if I'm going to forfeit to their 152, they won't know ahead of time and they'll just know a half hour earlier. It won't change that one iota.

 

There is no good reason other than a few people's fantasy that locking a lineup is good for the sport.



#34 SikeD

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 07:02 AM

Keep duals as they are.  I would only argue for one less weight class.

 

I would focus on tournaments.  Specifically making them go faster and more "enjoyable".  It's becoming harder and harder to convince kids to meet me at the high school at 5:45 AM, when they never wake up that early.  Coaches should submit line-ups two days before, and no changes from there.  Tournament directors can create the brackets days before, and make minor adjustments when kids don't make weight or no show.  Weigh-ins should start at 8 AM, wrestling should start at 9 AM.  Shrink down the 45-minute rule to 30 minutes.  All of a sudden kids don't have to wake up at 5 AM and are not giving up an entire Saturday because the tournament didn't end until 7 PM.



#35 davenowa

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 05:37 AM

the NFL realized that a coin toss was far too often determining the winner between 2 evenly matched teams, so they changed their OT procedure.  what is wrong with trying to modify a process whereby the team winner of many close match-ups is clearly determined by who wins the toss and has to send first?  if concerned about an injury during warm-ups (in the 3 times out of 8 million that this has happened, including the notorious banana peel incident of '79), then allow a 2nd, JV back-up to be listed.  however, the announced varsity contestant can't change weight classes after line-ups are announced...and you can;t submit your whole JV squad and then play games by having them all injured and subbing your actual starter, so the back-up would also be limited to whatever weight class is submitted.  "winning" a coin toss not only provides 1 team with a far greater chance of winning the match (due to the ability to react and bump accordingly), but it also allows far more anticipated great matches to NOT be wrestled by coaches bumping away from a good match, all in the name of "increasing our chances to win the dual" (not ever by ducking, of course...even when losing by 30 pts).  locking would create many more quality individual matches than it would eliminate.



#36 BobDole

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 07:56 AM

the NFL realized that a coin toss was far too often determining the winner between 2 evenly matched teams, so they changed their OT procedure.  what is wrong with trying to modify a process whereby the team winner of many close match-ups is clearly determined by who wins the toss and has to send first? 

False, ALL close duals are determined by

1. Bonus points

2. Winning close matches

 

Blaming a loss on a coin flip is dumb and idiotic. There are 14 matches that determine the team winner. 

 

 

 

 if concerned about an injury during warm-ups (in the 3 times out of 8 million that this has happened, including the notorious banana peel incident of '79), then allow a 2nd, JV back-up to be listed.  however, the announced varsity contestant can't change weight classes after line-ups are announced...and you can;t submit your whole JV squad and then play games by having them all injured and subbing your actual starter, so the back-up would also be limited to whatever weight class is submitted.  

 

Dumb, won't happen.

 

 

 

"winning" a coin toss not only provides 1 team with a far greater chance of winning the match (due to the ability to react and bump accordingly), but it also allows far more anticipated great matches to NOT be wrestled by coaches bumping away from a good match, all in the name of "increasing our chances to win the dual" (not ever by ducking, of course...even when losing by 30 pts).  locking would create many more quality individual matches than it would eliminate.

You're in a dream world, please wake up and realize that. The blabber coming out of you is detrimental to the sport. You act like a coin flip decides every dual, maybe you should coach your kids better so they aren't affected by a coin flip so much.



#37 davenowa

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 09:41 AM

Maybe I am missing something, but I don't understand how you can say all close duals are simply won by bonus pts and winning close matches, and that the pre-match coin toss does not matter.  while I think Eagle26 explained it quite well earlier, below is a simple 4 weight class scenario...

 

Team A wins toss and elects to send 1st in even matches.  Match starts at 126.  Team A has solid (but not spectacular) wrestlers at 126 and 138, with JV back-ups available.  Their 132 is not very good, but is competitive.

Team B has studs at 126 and 138, but is weak at 132 and 145.  

 

Team B has to send first at 126, and puts out their stud.  Team A counters with a JV kid, and Team B earns 6 pts.  Team A then puts their decent 126 at 132, and he wins by pin.  Score is 6-6.  Team B then puts out their stud at 138, and team A again sends their JV kid to get pinned.  Team B leads 12-6.  Team A then wins by pin at 145, and the score is 12-12.  Granted, Team B could have sent a JV at 126...but team A would have countered by sending their good kid (but not good enough to beat the state champ from B at 126), who wins by pin.  The stud from B at 126 then pins at 132, so same net result of 12-12 after 4 matches.

 

However, instead nowTeam B wins the toss and selects even bouts.  Now Team A must send at 126.  If they send their good wrestler, he gets beat by the state champ from team B.  Maybe only a decision, but at least a major...but if A sends out a JV back-up, B counters with a JV back-up who happens to be better.  Either way, B is getting at least 4 points.  Then at 132, Team B wins again, because A has used their pretty good kid against the state champ.  Same thing happens at 138 and 145, and because of the coin toss, there is nothing Team A can do to avoid putting their really good (but not great) kids against those 2 state champs.  End result?  From those 4 bouts, Team B now leads 20-0, which is a big difference from being 12-12.  

 

What could Team A have done differently?  Sure, get better and avoid a pin, prevent bonus pts blah blah blah...but other than having your 2 decent kids fail to make weight and then hope to bump up 2 weight classes to avoid the state champs, there is nothing you can do to overcome the fact that you lost the match because of the coin toss.  Oh, and by the way, you now have plenty of angry parents who did not get to see their kid wrestle because he was removed from the line-up because we lost the coin toss and had to bump up our 126 to 132...and the parents of the JV kid we fed to the wolf with the hope of avoiding a pin are not too thrilled either, because the state champ was perhaps a little too physical (taking out some of his frustration, as he was hoping to get a little challenge from the kid you had to bump away to save points).   

 

Coin toss matters (way too much).  


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#38 RichB

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 11:10 AM

We are all Wrestling fans here, and I'll bet over 90% are somewhat football fans. Coin Flip is important in both(most of us think). What other sports depend on a coin flip or something similar (like when we draw for a weight class). One other coin toss I can think of is in a multi team baseball/softball teams at one location; do they toss a coin to decide who is the "home team"? How about net sports, Tennis, Ping-Pong, Volleyball; Who serves first? Golf, who tees off first? I assume track and Swimming have formulas for lane assignments. Still, wrestling, Fball, Base/Soft would seem where it is most important.

 

Team "duals" in Tennis + Golf. Don't they try to pair #1 vs #1; #2 V #2; etc. Can coaches sand bag that? Say you have six singles matches. Ethical Coach A rates his guys 1-6. Unethical Coach B submits his #5 as #1, #6 as #2, #1 as 3, #2 as #4 etc. So Team A loses 1+2 in straight shutout sets, But team B wins the other 4. Can this happen? I suppose if someone did that, he would quickly become ostracized.

 

Does everyone remember when the home team was required to send out first at every weight? up until when, 1990? In that situation, if Home team hosted in a gigantic, un-fillable gymn nearby Visiting team, resulting in both schools having, say, 1000 fans, visitors certainly had an advantage.  



#39 BobDole

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 04:25 PM

Maybe I am missing something, but I don't understand how you can say all close duals are simply won by bonus pts and winning close matches, and that the pre-match coin toss does not matter.  while I think Eagle26 explained it quite well earlier, below is a simple 4 weight class scenario...

 

Team A wins toss and elects to send 1st in even matches.  Match starts at 126.  Team A has solid (but not spectacular) wrestlers at 126 and 138, with JV back-ups available.  Their 132 is not very good, but is competitive.

Team B has studs at 126 and 138, but is weak at 132 and 145.  

 

Team B has to send first at 126, and puts out their stud.  Team A counters with a JV kid, and Team B earns 6 pts.  Team A then puts their decent 126 at 132, and he wins by pin.  Score is 6-6.  Team B then puts out their stud at 138, and team A again sends their JV kid to get pinned.  Team B leads 12-6.  Team A then wins by pin at 145, and the score is 12-12.  Granted, Team B could have sent a JV at 126...but team A would have countered by sending their good kid (but not good enough to beat the state champ from B at 126), who wins by pin.  The stud from B at 126 then pins at 132, so same net result of 12-12 after 4 matches.

 

However, instead nowTeam B wins the toss and selects even bouts.  Now Team A must send at 126.  If they send their good wrestler, he gets beat by the state champ from team B.  Maybe only a decision, but at least a major...but if A sends out a JV back-up, B counters with a JV back-up who happens to be better.  Either way, B is getting at least 4 points.  Then at 132, Team B wins again, because A has used their pretty good kid against the state champ.  Same thing happens at 138 and 145, and because of the coin toss, there is nothing Team A can do to avoid putting their really good (but not great) kids against those 2 state champs.  End result?  From those 4 bouts, Team B now leads 20-0, which is a big difference from being 12-12.  

 

What could Team A have done differently?  Sure, get better and avoid a pin, prevent bonus pts blah blah blah...but other than having your 2 decent kids fail to make weight and then hope to bump up 2 weight classes to avoid the state champs, there is nothing you can do to overcome the fact that you lost the match because of the coin toss.  Oh, and by the way, you now have plenty of angry parents who did not get to see their kid wrestle because he was removed from the line-up because we lost the coin toss and had to bump up our 126 to 132...and the parents of the JV kid we fed to the wolf with the hope of avoiding a pin are not too thrilled either, because the state champ was perhaps a little too physical (taking out some of his frustration, as he was hoping to get a little challenge from the kid you had to bump away to save points).   

 

Coin toss matters (way too much).  

Your proposed plan does not prevent a coach from manipulating their lineup. Have you failed to realize that?  In all honesty it's even better for me to manipulate my lineup because now that you have a locked lineup, I don't have to rely on the coin flip for my shift to work! Great idea!

 

You act like the coin flip determines every dual and I would surely hate for you to have to coach your team to not give up pins or get pins...that would be a travesty. 

 

Here are a few ideas for your team to get better

1. Develop the lesser kids so you don't have holes for the other team to gain extra points by manipulating their lineup.

2. Don't give up pins and bonus points

3. Get more pins and bonus points

 

Maybe if you develop those kids between your studs you can wrestle straight up and come out ahead instead of relying on a coin flip to win a dual meet. 



#40 Eagle26

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 11:44 AM

Bob Dole, you are missing the point. It's not about preventing line up manipulation. I agree that can be a good thing and locked line ups allows for line manipulation. Both coaches could even agree to bump one stud up to wrestle another like the example you gave. The point is that no other sport has even close to as much of an advantage based on a coin flip. You can't just tell a coach to make his kids better. A dual meet is about who is better that day. Practice time is over. When the teams are close, the dual meet can often be decided largely by the coin flip. That is a fact. And that is a shame. I admit there are things i don't like about a locked line up, but there needs to be something to take the power away from the coin flip and I can't think of anything else right now. Furthermore, it will definitely cut back on a lot of forfeits to the stud wrestlers because they won't know for sure where to fft so they will at least put a JV guy where they think he will be. Talk to any competitive high school coach and they will let you know that the coin flip is way more important than it should be. Most casual observers like your self don't realize this




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