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Matside Weigh-Ins & Locked Line-Ups: 2018 Rule Proposals (Jan 17)


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#41 BobDole

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 03:02 AM

Goodness you guys really put a lot of stock in those coin flips. You surely hate getting out coached don't you?



#42 CoachWrestling

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 07:46 AM

BobDole is so wrong here it's honestly laughable. Here comes another ad hominem. 


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#43 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 08:31 AM

I have one more question: ever notice that, whenever a coach has to forfeit, it's always to the best wrestler? My suggestion: Each team gets to declare, prior to weigh-ins, three weights where a forfeit to them is worth eight points, instead of six. Nobody is forfeiting to Sammy Sasso if a forfeit to him is worth two more points than a forfeit to anybody else, and imagine if the Eagles could decide "hey, we only have ten guys, so Tom Brady doesn't get to play today"!

 

Edit to add: BobDole, if you think coaching should mean THAT MUCH in terms of how to win, you're in the sport for the wrong reasons. High school athletics should be about the kids, not about you.


Edited by SetonHallPirate, 04 February 2018 - 08:35 AM.

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#44 BobDole

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 02:14 PM

I have one more question: ever notice that, whenever a coach has to forfeit, it's always to the best wrestler? My suggestion: Each team gets to declare, prior to weigh-ins, three weights where a forfeit to them is worth eight points, instead of six. Nobody is forfeiting to Sammy Sasso if a forfeit to him is worth two more points than a forfeit to anybody else, and imagine if the Eagles could decide "hey, we only have ten guys, so Tom Brady doesn't get to play today"!

 

Edit to add: BobDole, if you think coaching should mean THAT MUCH in terms of how to win, you're in the sport for the wrong reasons. High school athletics should be about the kids, not about you.

False, about 99% of forfeits are because a team doesn't have a kid at that weight.

 

Coaching should mean something, having the ability to think outside the box and manipulate your lineup is good coaching. Also developing a program that has solid enough backups to throw out in those situations is good coaching. When you manipulate your lineup you take a chance that it works. I've seen it not work out when teams try to get more points by bumping kids up just as much as it has worked.



#45 BobDole

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 02:16 PM

BobDole is so wrong here it's honestly laughable. Here comes another ad hominem. 

Coin flips don't determine that many matches. Get your lesser kids not to get pinned in those situations and it's a win for your team.  Amazing that you want to pin your loss on a coin flip instead of developing your lesser kids. 



#46 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 04:15 PM

False, about 99% of forfeits are because a team doesn't have a kid at that weight.

 

Coaching should mean something, having the ability to think outside the box and manipulate your lineup is good coaching. Also developing a program that has solid enough backups to throw out in those situations is good coaching. When you manipulate your lineup you take a chance that it works. I've seen it not work out when teams try to get more points by bumping kids up just as much as it has worked.

You don't think coaches manipulate their lineups to forfeit to the best kid? I would completely agree that many (most, probably) coaches would rather send 14 guys out there than forfeit one, or two, or three weights, but when a coach has to forfeit at the high school level, it's often to make sure the best wrestler on the team doesn't get to wrestle.

 

As far as the second paragraph, I think you've just unwittingly proven my point.


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#47 BobDole

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 02:29 AM

You don't think coaches manipulate their lineups to forfeit to the best kid? I would completely agree that many (most, probably) coaches would rather send 14 guys out there than forfeit one, or two, or three weights, but when a coach has to forfeit at the high school level, it's often to make sure the best wrestler on the team doesn't get to wrestle.

 

As far as the second paragraph, I think you've just unwittingly proven my point.

It doesn't happen as much as you think it does. There are actually plenty of times where a coach needs to send out a guy and he needs to just stay off his back.

 

You still aren't realizing that if I plan on forfeiting to a kid, I'll just do it with the locked lineup. Then I don't have to worry about the coin flip. I just need to weigh my kid in and the other team isn't going to know anything is going on. 

 

More than anything, you can't legislate ethics in sports or real life and that's what you're trying to do. Coaches will find a way around it.



#48 CoachWrestling

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 04:08 PM

Coin flips don't determine that many matches. Get your lesser kids not to get pinned in those situations and it's a win for your team.  Amazing that you want to pin your loss on a coin flip instead of developing your lesser kids. 

 

Amazing that you did exactly what I said you would do. Pretty pathetic honestly, you obviously haven't coached a team in your life. Keep your Cheeto fingers behind the keyboard. 



#49 BobDole

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 01:23 AM

Amazing that you did exactly what I said you would do. Pretty pathetic honestly, you obviously haven't coached a team in your life. Keep your Cheeto fingers behind the keyboard. 

False



#50 davenowa

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 03:36 AM

it is obvious that this thread is going nowhere fast, but was hoping for a little more input on the Team Scoring proposal post...



#51 olddirty

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 05:47 PM

Locked lineups will increase attrition rates.  Numbers are down and sending in 1st year wrestlers to get slaughtered by age groupers will really be shown.  That is, unless the coach wants to just forfeit ahead of time due to the rule.



#52 BobDole

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 05:25 AM

I'm impressed by the NFHS survey and how they try to get people to be for this by stating "To discourage forfeits and the practice of ducking competition during dual meets, requiring schools to submit rosters prior to a dual meet which could not be changed once submitted."

 

Pretty shady in trying to get people to vote for that with trying to pawn it off as if forfeits will be eliminated magically.



#53 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 10:20 AM

I'm impressed by the NFHS survey and how they try to get people to be for this by stating "To discourage forfeits and the practice of ducking competition during dual meets, requiring schools to submit rosters prior to a dual meet which could not be changed once submitted."

 

Pretty shady in trying to get people to vote for that with trying to pawn it off as if forfeits will be eliminated magically.

I'm actually surprised they took this up. It's been discussed at the NWCA Convention for several years running!


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#54 ThatLogSchuteWasCarrying

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 06:24 AM

I don't like the idea of locked lineups.  I'll give an example - you have 2 heavyweights.  One is a go big or go home pinner, and the other guy has a better record but always wrestles a close match, win or lose.  If you get to the HWT match and you're down by 5 points the guy you're going to send out is different than if you get to the HWT match and you're up by 2 points.  If you have locked lineups you're taking away the ability for the coach to make decisions on the fly.

 

Or make it a little more complex and say you're "pin or get pinned" guy is your backup 215 pounder.  You still want to have the ability to shift your lineup around to maximize your chances of winning. 



#55 superbowlhomeboy

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 06:52 AM

I don't like the idea of locked lineups.  I'll give an example - you have 2 heavyweights.  One is a go big or go home pinner, and the other guy has a better record but always wrestles a close match, win or lose.  If you get to the HWT match and you're down by 5 points the guy you're going to send out is different than if you get to the HWT match and you're up by 2 points.  If you have locked lineups you're taking away the ability for the coach to make decisions on the fly.

 

Or make it a little more complex and say you're "pin or get pinned" guy is your backup 215 pounder.  You still want to have the ability to shift your lineup around to maximize your chances of winning. 

 

THIS!!!

 

You wouldn't tell a football coach they could only use one running back for every scenario. Strategies change based on the down and distance. 


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#56 davenowa

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 02:49 AM

if seeking to compare to other sports, perhaps "true" team sports such as football and baseball are not the best analogy.  however, similar "individually paired" team sports could be considered.  if the US is beating the Europeans in the Ryder Cup on Sunday, the captain can't suddenly change his submitted line-up because his first couple of guys are getting shellacked and he wants to move his best golfer to face their weakest.  The submitted line-up must be followed. In a high school tennis match, you are paired against the comparably ranked player on the other squad.  If wrestling coaches were allowed to manage that sport, they would put their worst kid against the other team's #1 player and then hope that your #1 and #2 can beat their #2 and #3, which would then result in an investigation and forfeit due to ethical violation.  

 

coaches would still be able to employ strategy, based on where they think the other team might put their kids...but 1. it would not be based on the outcome of a coin toss  2. it would not allow you to forfeit without significant repercussions (can't move the kid up to next weight), thereby reducing forfeits  3.  would reduce PO'ed parents and fans who were expecting to see their varsity starter actually wrestle a match (as opposed to being removed for a slightly better kid one weight lower, who was replaced by Mr. Forfeit). 



#57 BobDole

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 03:09 AM

if seeking to compare to other sports, perhaps "true" team sports such as football and baseball are not the best analogy.  however, similar "individually paired" team sports could be considered.  if the US is beating the Europeans in the Ryder Cup on Sunday, the captain can't suddenly change his submitted line-up because his first couple of guys are getting shellacked and he wants to move his best golfer to face their weakest.  The submitted line-up must be followed. In a high school tennis match, you are paired against the comparably ranked player on the other squad.  If wrestling coaches were allowed to manage that sport, they would put their worst kid against the other team's #1 player and then hope that your #1 and #2 can beat their #2 and #3, which would then result in an investigation and forfeit due to ethical violation.  

 

coaches would still be able to employ strategy, based on where they think the other team might put their kids...but 1. it would not be based on the outcome of a coin toss  2. it would not allow you to forfeit without significant repercussions (can't move the kid up to next weight), thereby reducing forfeits  3.  would reduce PO'ed parents and fans who were expecting to see their varsity starter actually wrestle a match (as opposed to being removed for a slightly better kid one weight lower, who was replaced by Mr. Forfeit). 

You live in a fantasy world. Locking a lineup does not cure any of the things you WANT it to fix

1. First off the coin toss doesn't decide a dual. Get that out of your mind. I can still pull a switcheroo with a locked lineup. The joy of that is I don't even need the coin toss to pull it off. 

 

2. Doesn't reduce forfeits, I can still bump away from kids if I want to. If a team has a good 152, they will have no clue that I am going to forfeit to their kid. Again, no need for the coin toss, I just do it and they are stuck just as much as I am.

 

3. See above, not going to change anything.

 

Your fixes are for imaginary problems that you think are out there.



#58 davenowa

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 03:50 AM

I think that the vast majority of coaches feel that a coin toss CAN decide a dual.  In fact, I would be willing to bet that if in the situations that have been described multiple times on this thread (consider re-reading those), if I can have MY TEAM and WIN the coin toss, I will beat YOUR TEAM.  If you have YOUR TEAM and win the toss, you will probably beat MY TEAM (unless you have no idea what you are doing). However, I will also take YOUR TEAM, and if I win the coin toss, I will beat MY TEAM.  The worst part of this whole thing is that if we swap teams and YOU win the coin toss, you will probably beat MY TEAM (if you have even the slightest clue to strategy), as neither I, nor you, nor Cael, nor Dan, nor Nostradamus will be able to overcome the significance of that coin toss in many situations.

 

Here is a simple survey asking about the importance of a coin toss.  I will post the results in 1 week.  In the meantime, I would ask that for all future coin tosses prior to dual meets, Sen. Dole MUST DEFER choice to the opponent, as he feels it does not ever matter.

 

https://www.surveymo....com/r/MN9WB8S 



#59 BobDole

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 04:17 AM

I think that the vast majority of coaches feel that a coin toss CAN decide a dual.  In fact, I would be willing to bet that if in the situations that have been described multiple times on this thread (consider re-reading those), if I can have MY TEAM and WIN the coin toss, I will beat YOUR TEAM.  If you have YOUR TEAM and win the toss, you will probably beat MY TEAM (unless you have no idea what you are doing). However, I will also take YOUR TEAM, and if I win the coin toss, I will beat MY TEAM.  The worst part of this whole thing is that if we swap teams and YOU win the coin toss, you will probably beat MY TEAM (if you have even the slightest clue to strategy), as neither I, nor you, nor Cael, nor Dan, nor Nostradamus will be able to overcome the significance of that coin toss in many situations.

 

Here is a simple survey asking about the importance of a coin toss.  I will post the results in 1 week.  In the meantime, I would ask that for all future coin tosses prior to dual meets, Sen. Dole MUST DEFER choice to the opponent, as he feels it does not ever matter.

 

https://www.surveymo....com/r/MN9WB8S 

It is amazing that you think the coin toss decides the dual. Maybe you shouldn't lose the overtime matches or get pinned or give up majors. Those things decide the matches. A coin toss supposedly deciding a match just means there are two very evenly matched teams going head to head. Maybe my perspective is way different, but when my team loses a close dual I look at close matches or bonus points instead of the coin flip.

 

Maybe you should just have a dual where you rule the winning team the winner of the coin flip then go home. It would be a lot less hassle because obviously you put not stock in the actual matches that take place.

 

What are you going to blame your loss on after you have locked lineups? I'm curious what rule you'll try to "fix" so that your team never loses. Obviously you put no stock in coaching your kids up, so it has to be a rule why you keep losing and not that the other team is better that day.



#60 BobDole

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 04:33 AM

I think that the vast majority of coaches feel that a coin toss CAN decide a dual.  In fact, I would be willing to bet that if in the situations that have been described multiple times on this thread (consider re-reading those), if I can have MY TEAM and WIN the coin toss, I will beat YOUR TEAM.  If you have YOUR TEAM and win the toss, you will probably beat MY TEAM (unless you have no idea what you are doing). However, I will also take YOUR TEAM, and if I win the coin toss, I will beat MY TEAM.  The worst part of this whole thing is that if we swap teams and YOU win the coin toss, you will probably beat MY TEAM (if you have even the slightest clue to strategy), as neither I, nor you, nor Cael, nor Dan, nor Nostradamus will be able to overcome the significance of that coin toss in many situations.

 

Here is a simple survey asking about the importance of a coin toss.  I will post the results in 1 week.  In the meantime, I would ask that for all future coin tosses prior to dual meets, Sen. Dole MUST DEFER choice to the opponent, as he feels it does not ever matter.

 

https://www.surveymo....com/r/MN9WB8S 

Nice survey, not baiting people into the answers you want by any means. Great job with a neutral survey.

 

1. In an otherwise even match up of two high school teams in a dual meet, can the COIN TOSS determine the outcome of the match?
Yes, despite my best efforts, the coin toss can determine the winning team
No, I can negate the impact of any coin toss with my brilliance...and will win the dual (or lose) whether I win the toss or lose the toss
 
No, there are many factors that go into a dual meet including close matches, bonus points, and coaching.
Here are things that decide close duals
1. Close matches
2. Overtime matches
3. Bonus points
4. Close referee calls
5. Coaching up lesser kids
6. Coaching up better kids to get bonus points
 
2. Would a locked line-up reduce the number of forfeits in a high school dual meet?
Yes
No
No, if a coach wants to forfeit to a stud they will do so anyway. The opposing coach will still be forced to throw out their stud to get the forfeit.
 
3. Would increasing the value of a forfeit from 6 team points to 7 team points reduce the number of forfeits?
Yes, the number of forfeits would be reduce
No, the number of forfeits would not be reduced
 
No, teams forfeit because they don't have a wrestler at that weight that day. 

 

Maybe, just maybe some day I'll look back at a dual and say "darn we lost because of the coin flip," but that day has yet to come. I look at things I can control as to how to win a dual. I can control my kids' effort and having them prepared for a battle. I can't imagine how bad of a coach there is that goes up to his kids after a close dual and says "we lost because we lost the coin flip, nevermind the three pins we gave up or that our best guy only got a regular decision."






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