Jump to content


Photo

Matside Weigh-Ins & Locked Line-Ups: 2018 Rule Proposals (Jan 17)


  • Please log in to reply
111 replies to this topic

#61 neutralposition

neutralposition

    Bronze Member

  • Members
  • 333 posts

Posted 28 February 2018 - 09:52 AM

As a coach, i am not a fan of locked lineups, especially if they are blind submissions to the lineups.  There is some strategy involved in who you send out and when.  We were wrestling our region dual opening match.  The draw came out at 160.  We were going to send our state champion out against their one of the best wrestlers who was also at 160.  We sent our wrestler and then they forfeited.  Before our wrestler stepped on the mat, yes he had checked in, I withdrew him and threw in a freshman to accept the forfeit.  How does this happen?  Knowledge of the rules.  I had every intention of my 160 competing and no thought of bumping him up to 170 until they forfeited to him.   I then realized they had the odd matches and they had to send first.  Once they were checked in, in correct order, the wrestlers could not be withdrawn.  Even though my guy was sent first, it was not in correct order.  Once they "sent" in a forfeit, I could withdraw my kid and send in the freshman per the case book and NFHS rules.  We spent 10 minutes at the table because the referees hadn't ever seen that done before.  I showed them the case book where it says you can.  The called the head referee over.  They called the state rules interpreter.  It was perfectly legal to do what I had done.

 

Again, I had no intention of baiting them into forfeiting.  We genuinely believed with their lineup that the match would happen at 160 and they were better off keeping their lineup in place instead of bumping.  A blind locked in lineup would have swung the dual meet in their favor.  On the fly strategy, knowledge of the rules, and last second line up adjustments swung the dual in our favor.  


Edited by neutralposition, 28 February 2018 - 09:52 AM.


#62 davenowa

davenowa
  • Members
  • 51 posts

Posted 28 February 2018 - 10:07 AM

...and the coin toss



#63 BobDole

BobDole

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 2,767 posts

Posted 28 February 2018 - 11:23 AM

...and the coin toss

Without the coin toss the forfeit to their best kid stands and the shift wins the other team the dual.

 

So many different scenarios that you're trying to prevent are causing conflicts here, which street are you going to go down?

 

If this is a locked lineup situation the forfeit to the best kid stands and mommy and daddy are upset in the stands crying foul.

Without the coin flip we don't get to see a good match because of the coach not knowing the rules. 

 

So the coin flip prevented a forfeit to a stud in this situation. Without it, the forfeit is there and we don't get to see a stud wrestle.

 

Boy....this is a conundrum for you isn't it?



#64 SetonHallPirate

SetonHallPirate

    Hall of Fame Member

  • Members
  • 10,748 posts

Posted 01 March 2018 - 06:10 AM

If anybody tells you the lack of a coin flip is a solution to reduce forfeits, I seriously question what their motives are. The double-blind setting of lineups has its purpose, but reducing forfeits isn't it. My point was that it's fairer than the colored disc toss, and takes the element of chance largely out of things. My idea, which was that each coach (before weigh-ins) declared three weights that forfeiting to them would be worth eight points, wouldn't reduce forfeits either, but would reduce forfeits to the best wrestlers. Pretty sure none of the fans show up to see a team's best wrestler get their arms raised without actually wrestling, and this would resolve that.

 

Maybe the idea is to tie a wrestler to a weight class, but allow teams to list multiple wrestlers at a weight (up to 20 guys). This is a system similar to what is done in volleyball, where when a substitute is subbed into a slot in the lineup, the person he's replacing can only go back in in that slot (ie. for the same guy).

 

But again, if I'm not mistaken, high school athletics (wrestling included) ought to be about the kids, not the coaches. What neutralposition and BobDole have mentioned are making it about them...

 

Dismounts from soapbox, and totally botches the landing.


Building a better Pirate...construction in process.

 

Editor-in-Chief, WrestlingByPirate

Website/Blog: http://wrestlingbypirate.wordpress.com

Twitter: @wrestlingbypir8

Building a smarter wrestling fan


#65 BobDole

BobDole

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 2,767 posts

Posted 01 March 2018 - 06:33 AM

If anybody tells you the lack of a coin flip is a solution to reduce forfeits, I seriously question what their motives are. The double-blind setting of lineups has its purpose, but reducing forfeits isn't it. My point was that it's fairer than the colored disc toss, and takes the element of chance largely out of things. My idea, which was that each coach (before weigh-ins) declared three weights that forfeiting to them would be worth eight points, wouldn't reduce forfeits either, but would reduce forfeits to the best wrestlers. Pretty sure none of the fans show up to see a team's best wrestler get their arms raised without actually wrestling, and this would resolve that.

 

Maybe the idea is to tie a wrestler to a weight class, but allow teams to list multiple wrestlers at a weight (up to 20 guys). This is a system similar to what is done in volleyball, where when a substitute is subbed into a slot in the lineup, the person he's replacing can only go back in in that slot (ie. for the same guy).

 

But again, if I'm not mistaken, high school athletics (wrestling included) ought to be about the kids, not the coaches. What neutralposition and BobDole have mentioned are making it about them...

 

Dismounts from soapbox, and totally botches the landing.

Don't make things more complicated than they need to be.

 

Your plan of the 8 point forfeit has a fatal flaw though. If I know the other team has been forfeiting a weight all year long, I will certainly tell them that that weight is an 8 point forfeit weight. 



#66 SetonHallPirate

SetonHallPirate

    Hall of Fame Member

  • Members
  • 10,748 posts

Posted 01 March 2018 - 07:54 AM

Don't make things more complicated than they need to be.

 

Your plan of the 8 point forfeit has a fatal flaw though. If I know the other team has been forfeiting a weight all year long, I will certainly tell them that that weight is an 8 point forfeit weight. 

And they'll make sure to have a wrestler at that weight...if they have nobody close to that weight, they probably aren't a threat to win the dual meet anyway.


Building a better Pirate...construction in process.

 

Editor-in-Chief, WrestlingByPirate

Website/Blog: http://wrestlingbypirate.wordpress.com

Twitter: @wrestlingbypir8

Building a smarter wrestling fan


#67 BobDole

BobDole

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 2,767 posts

Posted 01 March 2018 - 08:17 AM

And they'll make sure to have a wrestler at that weight...if they have nobody close to that weight, they probably aren't a threat to win the dual meet anyway.

Bad assumption, most forfeits are at lower weights and and most teams are truly trying to fill all their weights. There are many times were a team has a forfeit or two and still win duals or are able to win the dual.

 

In your scenario where I get three 8 point forfeit weights and I know the team we are facing hasn't had a 113lber all season. I'll tell them 106 and 113 and XXX weight are the 8 point weights. So thus even if they bump up their 106 I'm still getting one 8 point forfeit.

 

The only reasonable fix would be 8 point forfeits if you weigh-in a healthy and eligible wrestler at that weight. However you get into a sticky situation when you have to determine if a kid is healthy. Many states also require kids to have X amount of weigh-ins even if they don't wrestle, so there are times where a kid is injured or suspended that they weigh-in to accumulate the weigh-ins to be eligible for the state series.


  • GockeS likes this

#68 LordNelson

LordNelson

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 2,780 posts

Posted 01 March 2018 - 08:59 AM

The most forfeited weight according to NY data is 195


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#69 LordNelson

LordNelson

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 2,780 posts

Posted 01 March 2018 - 09:01 AM

All those rule proposals are grossly overthought in my opinion. Just make Ffts 8 points and let the coaches live and die with their decisions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#70 BobDole

BobDole

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 2,767 posts

Posted 01 March 2018 - 09:14 AM

The most forfeited weight according to NY data is 195


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not surprising that it is an upper weight since 7th and 8th graders can wrestle.



#71 davenowa

davenowa
  • Members
  • 51 posts

Posted 01 March 2018 - 09:37 AM

In CT (as with most states), highest vacancies at both ends of the spectrum.  With 100 teams, the following shows the number of wrestlers entered in post-season action at each weight class.  Please note that due to a handful of "one man teams" that may have 1-2 wrestlers (not part of the 100 "team" count), the actual number of vacancies is slightly higher.  Roughly 75% for 106/113, 85% from 120-170, then a little under 75% for upper 4 weights.  Again, only data from 1 small state...but a start.

 

2018 Entered 106 72 113 79 120 86 126 80 132 89 138 85 145 85 152 85 160 84 170 89 182 76 195 70 220 77 285 64

#72 SetonHallPirate

SetonHallPirate

    Hall of Fame Member

  • Members
  • 10,748 posts

Posted 01 March 2018 - 11:08 AM

Bad assumption, most forfeits are at lower weights and and most teams are truly trying to fill all their weights. There are many times were a team has a forfeit or two and still win duals or are able to win the dual.

 

In your scenario where I get three 8 point forfeit weights and I know the team we are facing hasn't had a 113lber all season. I'll tell them 106 and 113 and XXX weight are the 8 point weights. So thus even if they bump up their 106 I'm still getting one 8 point forfeit.

 

The only reasonable fix would be 8 point forfeits if you weigh-in a healthy and eligible wrestler at that weight. However you get into a sticky situation when you have to determine if a kid is healthy. Many states also require kids to have X amount of weigh-ins even if they don't wrestle, so there are times where a kid is injured or suspended that they weigh-in to accumulate the weigh-ins to be eligible for the state series.

Well, there you go...that's a gamble you'd be willing to take.


Building a better Pirate...construction in process.

 

Editor-in-Chief, WrestlingByPirate

Website/Blog: http://wrestlingbypirate.wordpress.com

Twitter: @wrestlingbypir8

Building a smarter wrestling fan


#73 BobDole

BobDole

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 2,767 posts

Posted 01 March 2018 - 03:33 PM

Well, there you go...that's a gamble you'd be willing to take.

Less rules, not more. No matter how many rules you put in, coaches will find a way around them.

 

The current lineup and coin flip procedures are fine, there is no need to change them. If you get out coached, get better, plain and simple. 


  • LordNelson, neutralposition and BigTenFanboy like this

#74 Jeff_Pape

Jeff_Pape

    Bronze Member

  • Members
  • 838 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 03:52 AM

I like the idea of coaches being able to adjust their strategy during the dual meet. I think it makes those type of matches more exciting. 

 

If you want to decrease the forfeits you see at the varsity level, you need to increase the wrestling opportunities in the sport for more athletes to participate when they are younger. Build the pipeline of future wrestlers. 

 

Create different skill levels so wrestlers have a chance to compete. Allow teams to enter multiple wrestlers at a tournament. Why should a team that has two kids in a weight class and no kids at another weight class be forced to keep that wrestler home. 

 

In Illinois, they are restricted to how many tournaments a team can wrestle in. Why not let a team that has fewer wrestlers go to more tournaments and less dual meets. I mean who is going to want to schedule a dual meet when one team only have five wrestlers. Maybe do a match restriction instead of how many duals and tournaments a wrestler can participate in (I know this rule varies by state).

 

My son is going into high school and is looking at what sports to play. One sport he is looking at has 7 different skill levels for him to play at. He is not a top player but enjoys the sport at the appropriate level. He would not be competitive at the highest level for his age group. 

Doing this will increase numbers more so than allowing kids to wear a two piece uniform....


Jeff Pape

WrestlingGear.Com


#75 neutralposition

neutralposition

    Bronze Member

  • Members
  • 333 posts

Posted 08 March 2018 - 06:26 AM

One other dual I was coaching, we had resigned ourselves to the likelihood that our 189 was going to win and our 215 was going to lose by fall.  We thought we could still win the dual with our lineup, but the middle of the lineup didn't fare so well.  At that point we knew what the end result would be; that they were going to win the dual.  We were down 33 - 12.  Well, time to roll the proverbial dice.  I looked for the best opportunity to shake things up, and decided to move in a sophomore to try to swing the match in our favor.  We decided the 2nd to the last match we would insert our sophomore non-starter at 189, he barely weighed 165, and bump the 189 to 215.  Well, it worked.  Our sophomore stepped up and had a great match.  He was leading by 9 or 10 when his opponent was penalized for the 4th time.  We got the DQ in our favor.  We would have gotten 4 team points but instead got 6.  Our 189 then rose to the occasion and beat their stud 215 pounder by major decision.  Our regular would have gotten pinned there.  Instead we took 4 points.  The dual meet final score was 36-33. 

 

With locked lineups and without the ability to shift, to evaluate during the dual, to roll the dice when needed, we would have lost that dual 39-32.  While the head coach was working the kids on the mat, I was working the numbers in the score book.  I threw the idea down for him to consider, he trusted in my judgment, we went for it, and we came roaring back for a big win, 36-33  It was one of the most intense dual meets I had ever been a part of and locked lineups would have made it just another day on the mat instead of an incredible bonding moment with our team and our guys.


Edited by neutralposition, 08 March 2018 - 06:44 AM.

  • BobDole likes this

#76 gowrestle

gowrestle

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 2,313 posts

Posted 27 March 2018 - 12:05 AM

Please quit making rules.

Submitting a locked lineup will not prevent forfeits, if a team wants to duck someone they will do it.

Submitting a locked lineup will also prevent shifting of your lineup to better your chances for a win.

Dumb idea.


Agreed
  • GockeS likes this

#77 Ray_Brinzer

Ray_Brinzer

    Bronze Member

  • Members
  • 368 posts

Posted 06 April 2018 - 02:58 AM

How much more often does the team which wins the flip win the dual meet?  It would be nice to have some actual statistics, rather than impressions and anecdotes.  If the numbers are skewed heavily in favor of the team which wins the flip, it would be a matter worth considering.  If not... not.

 

Assuming there is a problem, flipping before each match to see who sent out first would certainly shake things up, while letting coaches retain their ability to make choices as the meet progressed.  This would be a nuisance, of course, but you might make it an option:  either coach could request this arrangement before the initial flip.  Most of the time they wouldn't, and things would be just like they are now.

 

Matside weigh-ins require more work at the table, which must be accounted for, but they also eliminate the regular weigh-ins, and potentially a lot of bracket changes.  They might also reduce the need for bureaucracy with the weight certification process.  Eliminating incentives for bad behavior is often easier and more effective than regulating it.


  • GockeS likes this

#78 gowrestle

gowrestle

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 2,313 posts

Posted 11 April 2018 - 11:46 PM

How much more often does the team which wins the flip win the dual meet? It would be nice to have some actual statistics, rather than impressions and anecdotes. If the numbers are skewed heavily in favor of the team which wins the flip, it would be a matter worth considering. If not... not.

Assuming there is a problem, flipping before each match to see who sent out first would certainly shake things up, while letting coaches retain their ability to make choices as the meet progressed. This would be a nuisance, of course, but you might make it an option: either coach could request this arrangement before the initial flip. Most of the time they wouldn't, and things would be just like they are now.

Matside weigh-ins require more work at the table, which must be accounted for, but they also eliminate the regular weigh-ins, and potentially a lot of bracket changes. They might also reduce the need for bureaucracy with the weight certification process. Eliminating incentives for bad behavior is often easier and more effective than regulating it.


When it comes to sending out first, it really only as an impact in one match per dual. So a coach wants to win the flip in the weight that matters. Consequently, one flip would likely have the same impact discouraging the problems identified here as flipping for each match.

We need to do everything to avoid rewarding the wrestler that pulls weight the medically inappropriate way. Mat side weigh ins would do that. I think college needs the same rule.

#79 GockeS

GockeS

    Bronze Member

  • Members
  • 867 posts

Posted 12 April 2018 - 11:44 AM

 

But again, if I'm not mistaken, high school athletics (wrestling included) ought to be about the kids, not the coaches. What neutralposition and BobDole have mentioned are making it about them...

 

 

 

 


I disagree. it's all about the coach. great coaches create dynasties. great coaches can think on the fly and shuffle a lineup to help his athletes compete at their best and achieve the most.

 

 

 



#80 LordNelson

LordNelson

    Gold Member

  • Members
  • 2,780 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:33 AM

Like every other governed entity in society, a few cheat and/or break the rules and the rest have to be punished/over administrated.

Both ideas are dumb to no end.

 

Locked In: have some integrity and send your guy.  Stop killing the sport, give kids matches.  On that end, if you have a hammer and you know the other kid is "just a match" use your judgement and tell your kid not to put on a show.  Take him down and pin the kid without making an ass out of him.

 

Mat side weigh ins: for dual-meets I really couldn't care less.  For tournaments it is an absolute logistical nightmare and tournament momentum killer.  We already spend too much time in a gym and time between bouts is a huge factor and difference between well run events and those to avoid.  

 

How many overly aggressive weight management tools can we administrate in one sport?


  • gowrestle and GockeS like this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users