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CholleyVandine

Hodge update

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Different styles. If Snyder was clearly the best in collegiate folk, he'd be able to easily surpass what Zain does. So why doesn't he?

Why doesnt he just turn everyone in freestyle? Different styles yes, but he is so good on his feet that even somewhat one dimensional (compared to the elite) that he is considered the p4p best in the world, and it translates perfectly to folkstyle. Edited by maolsen

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It has nothing to do with Snyder being better at freestyle than folk.  Snyder has nothing from the top position in either freestyle or folkstyle. It's the fact that he is so much better at the neutral position than Zain and everyone else in the U.S. that makes him the best wrestler in the country.  It's why Taylor would tech the same people Dake would beat by major, yet Dake was the better wrestler and could win the head to head matchups.

 

Unfortunately there's no way to prove this definitively like there was with Dake/Taylor.

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It has nothing to do with Snyder being better at freestyle than folk.  Snyder has nothing from the top position in either freestyle or folkstyle. It's the fact that he is so much better at the neutral position than Zain and everyone else in the U.S. that makes him the best wrestler in the country.  It's why Taylor would tech the same people Dake would beat by major, yet Dake was the better wrestler and could win the head to head matchups.  

 

 

This thread is about the Hodge Award. The criteria there favor Zain, not Kyle. Heck, they favor Bo Nickal probably over Kyle. Nolf too had he not gotten injured. 

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Why doesnt he just turn everyone in freestyle? Different styles yes, but he is so good on his feet that even somewhat one dimensional (compared to the elite) that he is considered the p4p best in the world, and it translates perfectly to folkstyle.

 

 

It doesn't translate to Hodge criteria as well as what Zain does. 

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Why doesnt he just turn everyone in freestyle? Different styles yes, but he is so good on his feet that even somewhat one dimensional (compared to the elite) that he is considered the p4p best in the world, and it translates perfectly to folkstyle.

If only there were a tournament where the best in the world compete of any age instead of just the best in the country enrolled in college. If such a tournament did exist, we would simply have to compare their relative results at sed international tournament.  

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This thread is about the Hodge Award. The criteria there favor Zain, not Kyle. Heck, they favor Bo Nickal probably over Kyle. Nolf too had he not gotten injured. 

I'm fine with the argument that Zain deserves the hodge because he pins more.  I'm not ok with the argument that he deserves it because he is the better folkstyle wrestler.  Some people who clearly don't understand wrestling seem to believe the latter argument, while the former is very  logical. 

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And let me re state, in very close proximity to his International Success Kyle Snyder wrestled folk 197 and he had losses. His going to 285 and taking on relatively lesser athletes matters. But still he does not match Zain in Hodge criteria. 

 

Loved his win over Sadulaev, though. 

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This thread is about the Hodge Award. The criteria there favor Zain, not Kyle. Heck, they favor Bo Nickal probably over Kyle. Nolf too had he not gotten injured.

Look at the first page where dmm listed people probably better then Snyder at folkstyle, you know, the post that you admitted getting drilled for making the same point.

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And let me re state, in very close proximity to his International Success Kyle Snyder wrestled folk 197 and he had losses. His going to 285 and taking on relatively lesser athletes matters. But still he does not match Zain in Hodge criteria. 

 

Loved his win over Sadulaev, though. 

Snyder was improving exponentially in that time frame. A bit earlier than those folkstyle losses, he was completely outclassed by Gatsalov.  I'm not sure I've ever witnessed a single athlete improve as much as Kyle Snyder did from the end of his Senior season in HS to the end of his freshman season in college. 

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And let me re state, in very close proximity to his International Success Kyle Snyder wrestled folk 197 and he had losses. His going to 285 and taking on relatively lesser athletes matters. But still he does not match Zain in Hodge criteria.

 

Loved his win over Sadulaev, though.

Zain beat Stieber his freshmen year, in close proximity to that match, he then lost to Stieber. Things happen. Edited by maolsen

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I am really surprised that this is discussed this much. Snyder is a part time collegiate wrestler and not a pinner.

 

Am I wrong in that the Hodge is a collegiate award? If not Snyder isn't close to the most dominate in NCAA.

 

That doesn't change the fact that most consider him the best US Wrestler in the world.

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Zain beat Stieber his freshmen year, in close proximity to that match, he then lost to Stieber. Things happen.

 

 

Which is precisely why we at least attempt (even though people give it to whomever they want) to use objective criteria for the Hodge award. 

Edited by TBar1977

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Again, not arguing that via criteria (that is not always followed), zain wins, just arguing the two people that seem to think the best wrestler in the world is 2nd, 3rd, heck maybe even the 5th best wrestler in college.

Edited by maolsen

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Again, not arguing that via criteria (that is not always followed), zain wins, just arguing the two people that seem to think the best wrestler in the world is 2nd, 3rd, heck maybe even the 5th best wrestler in college.

What don't you get about Rasheed being better than Snyder because he gets more pins?

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Again, not arguing that via criteria (that is not always followed), zain wins, just arguing the two people that seem to think the best wrestler in the world is 2nd, 3rd, heck maybe even the 5th best wrestler in college.

 

 

Look, I totally get your point and that of others. Snyder probably is the "best wrestler" in the US right now, maybe in the world. But that is based on freestyle, not folk style. If the only argument is who is the best at folkstyle, anyone can say Kyle Snyder if they want. But if you start to apply objective criteria to the question then a lot of things come into play.

 

If I ask you a simple question like this. If your team is in the hunt for an NCAA Team title, do you want your star wrestler to earn 22 points for your team or 28 points for your team, what is your simple answer? 

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Look, I totally get your point and that of others. Snyder probably is the "best wrestler" in the US right now, maybe in the world. But that is based on freestyle, not folk style. If the only argument is who is the best at folkstyle, anyone can say Kyle Snyder if they want. But if you start to apply objective criteria to the question then a lot of things come into play.

 

If I ask you a simple question like this. If your team is in the hunt for an NCAA Team title, do you want your star wrestler to earn 22 points for your team or 28 points for your team, what is your simple answer? 

Of course you'd take Zain at NCAAs given the current landscape, but the athlete who scores the most points at NCAAs is not the same as being the better wrestler.  It once again means that Zain is better at the top position and can rack up pins and techs.  Just admit that Kyle Snyder is a better wrestler than Retherford, while Retherford is better at getting pins...Say that and we can move on. I think it's likely that Seth Gross scores more team points at NCAAs than Snyder...I'm sure you don't think Gross is better though do you?

Edited by Billyhoyle

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Of course you'd take Zain at NCAAs given the current landscape, but the athlete who scores the most points at NCAAs is not the same as being the better wrestler.  It once again means that Zain is better at the top position and can rack up pins and techs.  Just admit that Kyle Snyder is a better wrestler than Retherford, while Retherford is better at getting pins...Say that and we can move on. I think it's likely that Seth Gross scores more team points at NCAAs than Snyder...I'm sure you don't think Gross is better though do you?

 

 

I would say that if Unbeaten Wrestler A scores more points per match in the regular season and the post season than does Unbeaten Wrestler B, then objectively he IS the better NCAA wrestler. 

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Of course you'd take Zain at NCAAs given the current landscape, but the athlete who scores the most points at NCAAs is not the same as being the better wrestler.  It once again means that Zain is better at the top position and can rack up pins and techs.  Just admit that Kyle Snyder is a better wrestler than Retherford, while Retherford is better at getting pins...Say that and we can move on. I think it's likely that Seth Gross scores more team points at NCAAs than Snyder...I'm sure you don't think Gross is better though do you?

 

 

Not sure I'd agree that Gross will outscore Snyder at NCAA's this year. Snyder scored 24.5 and 24 the past two year's respectively. He'll probably score that much again, and that is a lot of points. 

 

I have already agreed that Snyder is the best US wrestler P4P in freestyle, which is all the rest of the world cares about. My criteria for who is the best collegiate wrestler deals more with who scores bp's and helps his team win NCAA Championships. Team points scored by a wrestler matters in both duals and NCAA's. Coach Sanderson made PSU fans believe that, and his teams win Championships. 

 

The objective is to win, but in college there is a companion objective and its also to win and score the most for your team in the process. Zain has been better at that than Snyder. 

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I would say that if Unbeaten Wrestler A scores more points per match in the regular season and the post season than does Unbeaten Wrestler B, then objectively he IS the better NCAA wrestler.

I would say Junior Dake was better then Sophomore Taylor, both undefeated, but Taylor scored more. Putting up points does not always tell the full story.

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Not sure I'd agree that Gross will outscore Snyder at NCAA's this year. Snyder scored 24.5 and 24 the past two year's respectively. He'll probably score that much again, and that is a lot of points. 

 

I have already agreed that Snyder is the best US wrestler P4P in freestyle, which is all the rest of the world cares about. My criteria for who is the best collegiate wrestler deals more with who scores bp's and helps his team win NCAA Championships. Team points scored by a wrestler matters in both duals and NCAA's. Coach Sanderson made PSU fans believe that, and his teams win Championships. 

 

The objective is to win, but in college there is a companion objective and its also to win and score the most for your team in the process. Zain has been better at that than Snyder. 

So you think Logan Stieber is the 2nd greatest NCAA wrestler of all time, with Banach 3rd, and taylor 4th?

 

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/5967780-cael-is-the-greatest-ncaa-wrestler-of-all-time-so-who-s-no-2-

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Just admit that Kyle Snyder is a better wrestler than Retherford, while Retherford is better at getting pins...Say that and we can move on.

 

Billy,

 

I really don't see how you can pose the question of who is the "better wrestler" without specifying the style you are talking about. 

 

Obviously there is no quarrel if we're talking about freestyle.

 

But if, for example, if we were talking about Greco, I definitely don't think the answer would be Snyder... not even among college wrestlers in his weight class.  I'd pick Coon to win at least 8 times out of 10 in a Greco match with Snyder.  Snyder's leg attacks wouldn't be available and he'd get worked upper body by Coon, an Olympic alternate at HWT in Greco.  I doubt anyone would seriously argue with me on this.

 

So why isn't it relevant to also consider stylistic differences if we are talking about folkstyle only?  I don't doubt that Snyder is better on his feet than Zain.  Snyder is one of the best guys on his feet of all time.  But Zain is better on bottom, and light years better on top. When you add that top/bottom superiority into the mix, Zain's results are far superior to Snyder's.  So why isn't it fair to say Zain is better overall -- in this style?

 

Personally, I like looking at it from a draft standpoint.  If all D1 wrestlers were going to be assigned to teams by draft lottery, and you are the coach with the first pick, who would you choose first?  To me, that's your MVP.  I'm a huge Snyder fan and he's a surefire titlist, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who wouldn't pick Zain before Snyder.

Edited by BAC

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