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The escape that isn't really an escape


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#1 TBar1977

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 04:02 AM

I have mixed feelings on this issue, but since it has happened in three different matches lately I wonder what others think about it. 

 

This came up again twice yesterday in the same match with NaTo - Mattin. NaTo is in the top position in control of Mattin, releases him, and without Mattin barely moving Nato jumps on his back again and gets another TD awarded. I think this is on Mattin as he should be more active in presenting himself defensively, but doesn't the rulebook require the defensive/bottom wrestler to be released and to be in neutral facing the offensive/top wrestler? 

 

Seems they are allowing this pattern routinely now. 1. Let up a little on the down wrestler 2. Get in front of down wrestler 3. Circle around and jump back on top of down wrestler. 4. Down wrestler never really presents himself as "in neutral and squared up to defend". 


I have set aside funds to have six Green Bay Packers be my pall bearers, that way they can let me down one final time. 


#2 BigTenFanboy

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 04:04 AM

I have mixed feelings on this issue, but since it has happened in three different matches lately I wonder what others think about it. 

 

This came up again twice yesterday in the same match with NaTo - Mattin. NaTo is in the top position in control of Mattin, releases him, and without Mattin barely moving Nato jumps on his back again and gets another TD awarded. I think this is on Mattin as he should be more active in presenting himself defensively, but doesn't the rulebook require the defensive/bottom wrestler to be released and to be in neutral facing the offensive/top wrestler? 

 

Seems they are allowing this pattern routinely now. 1. Let up a little on the down wrestler 2. Get in front of down wrestler 3. Circle around and jump back on top of down wrestler. 4. Down wrestler never really presents himself as "in neutral and squared up to defend". 

 

I think if the top man is out front and breaks all contact with him then its an escape.


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#3 unbiased

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 04:07 AM

IMO you should have to give the bottom man a chance to stand up and face. Tomasello let go of Mattin but he was still on his knees with his head down. If the bottom man doesn't rise and face in a timely manner then hit him with stalling but don't just give an escape point at the convenience of the top man so he can pounce on for another takedown.

Edited by unbiased, 12 February 2018 - 04:11 AM.

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#4 TBar1977

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 04:08 AM

IMO you should have to give the bottom man a chance to stand up and face. Tomasello let go of Mattin but he was still on his knees with his head down. If the bottom man doesn't rise and face in a timely manner then hit him with a stalling but don't just give an escape point at the convenience of the top man so he can pounce on for another takedown.

 

 

This is my exact view. Let the bottom man stand and present himself facing the top man. If he stalls the action enough to warrant a stall call, then hit him for stalling. But at least give him the opportunity. 


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I have set aside funds to have six Green Bay Packers be my pall bearers, that way they can let me down one final time. 


#5 ionel

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 04:10 AM

I have mixed feelings on this issue, but since it has happened in three different matches lately I wonder what others think about it. 

 

This came up again twice yesterday in the same match with NaTo - Mattin. NaTo is in the top position in control of Mattin, releases him, and without Mattin barely moving Nato jumps on his back again and gets another TD awarded. I think this is on Mattin as he should be more active in presenting himself defensively, but doesn't the rulebook require the defensive/bottom wrestler to be released and to be in neutral facing the offensive/top wrestler? 

 

Seems they are allowing this pattern routinely now. 1. Let up a little on the down wrestler 2. Get in front of down wrestler 3. Circle around and jump back on top of down wrestler. 4. Down wrestler never really presents himself as "in neutral and squared up to defend". 

 

he was and Nato broke all contact, plus they reviewed the video.  It was quick contact break, but the bottom wrestler did nothing.

 

if allowing him to stand, how many seconds should you give him, 2s, 4s, ... 10s?  The break contact is a much easier/cleaner rule, think if Mattin had attempting to stand or make contact they would not having ruled escape takedown.


Edited by ionel, 12 February 2018 - 04:14 AM.


#6 ThatLogSchuteWasCarrying

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 04:12 AM

IMO you should have to give the bottom man a chance to stand up and face. Tomasello let go of Mattin but he was still on his knees with his head down. If the bottom man doesn't rise and face in a timely manner then hit him with a stalling but don't just give an escape point at the convenience of the top man so he can pounce on for another takedown.

 

Yeah, if a guy is broke at the end of a match and refusing to stand up that's one thing.  But if you're cutting a guy then the down wrestler should get the opportunity to actually reach neutral before the escape is given. If you come off the hips but still have the hands on the head, for example, that's not giving up an escape, that's trying to bait the guy in to a cradle. 



#7 unbiased

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 04:14 AM

What is the definition of neutral facing? A prone position, on one knee, on both knees or standing?

#8 TBar1977

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 04:15 AM

he was and Nato broke all contact, plus they reviewed the video.  It was quick contact break, but the bottom wrestler did nothing.

 

 

he was pointed towards NaTo, yes, but not sure he was "facing" him in any defensive posture. Still on his hands and knees. I feel like NaTo got a little gifted there, and it happened twice in that match. Partly this is on Mattin. 


I have set aside funds to have six Green Bay Packers be my pall bearers, that way they can let me down one final time. 


#9 tec87

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 04:40 AM

Where’s the midlands video of Metcalf vs the Purdue wrestler (who’s name is escaping me at the moment). Metcalf literally broke him and Metcalf scores multiple takedowns as a result of breaking contact and the other wrestler not even making an attempt to get up at all.

Edit: Jake Patascil in the 2007 midlands finals
https://www.flowrest...nt-metcalf-iowa

The 8min mark is roughly when it starts and Martin going nuts “that is not an escape, this ref does not know how to do their job”

Edited by tec87, 12 February 2018 - 05:16 AM.

FIRE UP CHIPS!!!!

#10 BigTenFanboy

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 04:45 AM

Where’s the midlands video of Metcalf vs the Purdue wrestler (who’s name is escaping me at the moment). Metcalf literally broke him and Metcalf scores multiple takedowns as a result of breaking contact and the other wrestler not even making an attempt to get up at all.

 

LOL i know that wasn't intentional, but its works! 


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#11 Medicine_Man

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 04:57 AM

I think it should be like boxing, "defend yourself at all times."  Even when bottom man stands and top guy cuts him loose...if that bottom guy doesn't wheel and face, you should be able to plow him down from behind...look how much time those guys who get cut loose take, walking slowly away, facing away, then gradually turn toward their opponent.

   However, in the case of Nato, I did not think 2 pts should've been awarded, just because most refs, over the past few years, have been allowing wrestlers to get into a defensive stance.



#12 TBar1977

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 04:59 AM

I think it should be like boxing, "defend yourself at all times."  Even when bottom man stands and top guy cuts him loose...if that bottom guy doesn't wheel and face, you should be able to plow him down from behind...look how much time those guys who get cut loose take, walking slowly away, facing away, then gradually turn toward their opponent.

   However, in the case of Nato, I did not think 2 pts should've been awarded, just because most refs, over the past few years, have been allowing wrestlers to get into a defensive stance.

 

 

What is then to stop the top man from bellying out his opponent to then simply get off, then get right back on? You could TF a guy inside a minute like that. 


I have set aside funds to have six Green Bay Packers be my pall bearers, that way they can let me down one final time. 


#13 BigTenFanboy

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 05:00 AM

What is then to stop the top man from bellying out his opponent to then simply get off, then get right back on? You could TF a guy inside a minute like that. 

 

If that happens, the guy deserves to be TF in a minute. LOL.



#14 TobusRex

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 05:00 AM

Back in the old days when a guy was released he was given about a second to square up. That seems about the right way to do it.



#15 Medicine_Man

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 05:20 AM

What is then to stop the top man from bellying out his opponent to then simply get off, then get right back on? You could TF a guy inside a minute like that. 

A rule saying top guy has to be facing that bellied down guy...he releases him, gets out front, and if bellied down guy wants to lay there, then jump back on him.

 

Okay, here's another thing I don't get.  Top guy cuts his opponent, he obviously wants to take him down again-score points, but then he keeps his hands on his opponent's neck or back or shoulder and follows him around the mat, burning time.   What's up with that?  I think Bo Jordan was doing that yesterday



#16 TBar1977

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 05:26 AM

A rule saying top guy has to be facing that bellied down guy...he releases him, gets out front, and if bellied down guy wants to lay there, then jump back on him.

 

Okay, here's another thing I don't get.  Top guy cuts his opponent, he obviously wants to take him down again-score points, but then he keeps his hands on his opponent's neck or back or shoulder and follows him around the mat, burning time.   What's up with that?  I think Bo Jordan was doing that yesterday

 

 

Nolf does this all the time. It is not an escape until the other guy turns and faces. Why Nolf (or anyone else) does this may be psychological, might be just to keep the pace high. 


I have set aside funds to have six Green Bay Packers be my pall bearers, that way they can let me down one final time. 


#17 unbiased

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 05:31 AM

I've seen Nolf do it to catch a guy sleeping and pin him. (multiple times)

#18 boconnell

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 05:34 AM

I have mixed feelings on this issue, but since it has happened in three different matches lately I wonder what others think about it. 

 

This came up again twice yesterday in the same match with NaTo - Mattin. NaTo is in the top position in control of Mattin, releases him, and without Mattin barely moving Nato jumps on his back again and gets another TD awarded. I think this is on Mattin as he should be more active in presenting himself defensively, but doesn't the rulebook require the defensive/bottom wrestler to be released and to be in neutral facing the offensive/top wrestler? 

 

Seems they are allowing this pattern routinely now. 1. Let up a little on the down wrestler 2. Get in front of down wrestler 3. Circle around and jump back on top of down wrestler. 4. Down wrestler never really presents himself as "in neutral and squared up to defend". 

I guess guys getting crushed should stop trying to stay on bottom.  



#19 Voice_of_the_Quakers

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 05:55 AM

In this same vein of "take 'em down, let 'em up", I hate when escapes are awarded when the top wrestler is still riding the head as the bottom wrestler returns to his feet.  IMO, facing your opponent should actually include being able to look at your opponent.  You would think refs would want a "black and white" rule involving a clean break.


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#20 hammerlockthree

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 06:39 AM

I think if the top man is out front and breaks all contact with him then its an escape.

 

If the bottom guy is trying to escape its not an issue. Thats why the escapes should come quick. 






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