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TBar1977

The escape that isn't really an escape

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Yep. If the bottom guy was trying to get away then it would not be an issue. But at some point these guys decide they will try to stay on bottom even when being let up. I have no problem with quick calls here. Make the wrestler defend himself and wrestle.

I agree as well. In the bottom position you should be trying for an escape or reversal. If a guy is letting you up and you aren't trying to get away, then it should be an automatic stalling. And if the guy breaks contact while facing you, you should pop up and defend yourself. We all know the reason someone takes so long to escape is to slow down the match, whether it be to stop a comeback or avoid a tech fall. I have no sympathy for a guy who gave up a quick two because he refused to take the escape he was given.

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I agree as well. In the bottom position you should be trying for an escape or reversal. If a guy is letting you up and you aren't trying to get away, then it should be an automatic stalling. And if the guy breaks contact while facing you, you should pop up and defend yourself. We all know the reason someone takes so long to escape is to slow down the match, whether it be to stop a comeback or avoid a tech fall. I have no sympathy for a guy who gave up a quick two because he refused to take the escape he was given.

Pop up so you can be blast doubled to next week?  No thanks!  The defending wrestler should be in an equal position before an escape is awarded.

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Pop up so you can be blast doubled to next week?  No thanks!  The defending wrestler should be in an equal position before an escape is awarded.

Nobody is arguing that.  But the defending wrestler has to work to get to an equal position.  He can't just sit there with his head down to avoid an equal position and stop the action.  

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Pop up so you can be blast doubled to next week?  No thanks! 

This is exactly the problem. In this situation, the wrestler on bottom has usually reached their breaking point and is trying to avoid being scored on any way they can, either hold on to a win, or to avoid giving up bonus points. If the top man only has his hands on you and you are not trying to get to your feet, stalling should be called immediately. It should not even be the top guy's responsibility to get around front and face you. I'd be in favor of a rule that results in immediate points if the bottom man doesn't get up and defend himself immediately (in theory, in practice it would be hard to call objectively). I'm certainly not got to feel sorry for a guy getting a quick 2 called on him when he was just trying to avoid wrestling.

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The defensive wrestler is entitled to a bit of time to get to a comfortable position.

I think that is ridiculous. If you are not trying to get up to your feet while the top guy is letting you up, then you are flat out stalling. It's pretty damn easy to do a standup when the top guy only has a couple of hands on you. And you can do so while defending yourself against the impending takedown attempt. That is unless you are too tire, which is why the defensive wrestler takes so long to get up. If you choose to defend yourself by staying in a ball, then I am fine with a quick escape and takedown call. 

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I think that is ridiculous. If you are not trying to get up to your feet while the top guy is letting you up, then you are flat out stalling. It's pretty damn easy to do a standup when the top guy only has a couple of hands on you. And you can do so while defending yourself against the impending takedown attempt. That is unless you are too tire, which is why the defensive wrestler takes so long to get up. If you choose to defend yourself by staying in a ball, then I am fine with a quick escape and takedown call.

Nothing ridiculous about neutral being neutral.

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You're not calling stalling there because neutral isn't neutral. You're calling it because refusing to improve position is the very definition of stalling.

It's not stalling in the first few seconds. The offensive wrestler figures he improves his position by releasing you. Fair enough. The defensive wrestler improves his position by being released to a position of neutrality. It's just common sense.

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It's not stalling in the first few seconds. The offensive wrestler figures he improves his position by releasing you. Fair enough. The defensive wrestler improves his position by being released to a position of neutrality. It's just common sense.

The ironic thing is releasing a guy to neutral technically isn't improving your position, the the opposite.

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Ask any experienced official about this call in this situation in this particular dual and expect an honest professional's response to reference both timing and potential for bias. In short, Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year, Birthday, Hannukah,...etc, etc.,etc.....(fill in the blank)

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I've seen Nolf do it to catch a guy sleeping and pin him. (multiple times)

 

Speaking of the "Metcalf special", here's a good one of Brent catching an opponent the same way... bottom man was gesturing to the ref about Metcalf putting downward pressure on his head and got pinned doing so.

 

https://www.flowrestling.org/events/5002251-iowa-18-16-iowa-state/videos?playing=5172472

 

around the 8:35 mark

Edited by pamela

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This situation happened a bunch in today's Kyle Snyder vs Boykin match.

 

(I'm sure this link violates some sort of copyright, but here you can watch it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9mYZqVfpEk

Boykin was making no attempt to get up when Kyle gave him the opportunity. You can even see him look at the ref while he was on his knees and Kyle was not even touching him (4:00 mins). How could someone argue that the ref should not award the escape there when he could have just stood up and defended himself? Which is exactly what he did at 4:35 when he seemed to get the idea.

Edited by Crotalus

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W/R to the 4:00 mark only. Snyder controls and then releases. That is his call. Why does Snyder get to decide that Boykin is released in a situation that no person is going to call equal footing? He should be given opportunity at equal footing and he doesn't need to do it at the speed of light. Further, he can't just stand up. There is a dude hulking over him slightly to one side and he is disoriented. The reason Snyder is hulking over him rather than give him space to stand up is because he knows it's far more difficult to take him down if he actually makes it to equal footing!

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W/R to the 4:00 mark only. Snyder controls and then releases. That is his call. Why does Snyder get to decide that Boykin is released in a situation that no person is going to call equal footing? He should be given opportunity at equal footing and he doesn't need to do it at the speed of light. Further, he can't just stand up. There is a dude hulking over him slightly to one side and he is disoriented. The reason Snyder is hulking over him rather than give him space to stand up is because he knows it's far more difficult to take him down if he actually makes it to equal footing!

I agree.  Snyder is clearly infringing on his safe space.  If the ref won't protect Boykin than the campus police should.  #BoykinToo

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W/R to the 4:00 mark only. Snyder controls and then releases. That is his call. Why does Snyder get to decide that Boykin is released in a situation that no person is going to call equal footing? He should be given opportunity at equal footing and he doesn't need to do it at the speed of light. Further, he can't just stand up. There is a dude hulking over him slightly to one side and he is disoriented. The reason Snyder is hulking over him rather than give him space to stand up is because he knows it's far more difficult to take him down if he actually makes it to equal footing!

I pointed out the 4:35 mark because it shows exactly what he should do. Get back to neutral and defend himself.

 

How long should they be given before the escape is called if they just don't stand back up (which is what happened at the 4:00 mark, in my opinion)? What do you do if they just refuse to take the escape? My issue is that this situation occurs because the bottom guy is trying to delay the match so they don't get scored on.

Edited by Crotalus

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I pointed out the 4:35 mark because it shows exactly what he should do. Get back to neutral and defend himself.

 

How long should they be given before the escape is called if they just don't stand back up (which is what happened at the 4:00 mark, in my opinion)? What do you do if they just refuse to take the escape? My issue is that this situation occurs because the bottom guy is trying to delay the match so they don't get scored on.

I agree that is how it should go.  It took 3 or 4 seconds and they were neutral. 

Do you have issue with how this ref was managing it?  It looked good to me.  During the instance immediately preceding the 4:35 mark he gave Boykin 5 seconds, awarded an escape and Snyder walked around for two.  That seemed fair. 

My issue here is that an escape shouldn't be awarded as soon as the offensive wrestler releases because they are not in a truly neutral position.  5 seconds of transition is reasonable to me.

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I agree that is how it should go.  It took 3 or 4 seconds and they were neutral. 

Do you have issue with how this ref was managing it?  It looked good to me.  During the instance immediately preceding the 4:35 mark he gave Boykin 5 seconds, awarded an escape and Snyder walked around for two.  That seemed fair. 

My issue here is that an escape shouldn't be awarded as soon as the offensive wrestler releases because they are not in a truly neutral position.  5 seconds of transition is reasonable to me.

What??  WHAT???  5 seconds maybe if you have a hwt on his back and just stand up, letting him go...it might take a hwt 5 seconds to roll over on his belly and stand up, but other than that, if you let a guy go who's on his hands and knees, 2 seconds should be plenty....ref should fan his palm twice and award escape.

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Yes, it is reasonable.  Again, one guy is trying to square up and get up while the other is trying to maintain an angle and get a running start while his opponent has the weakest defense possible  It is not equal footing. 

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Yes, it is reasonable.  Again, one guy is trying to square up and get up while the other is trying to maintain an angle and get a running start while his opponent has the weakest defense possible  It is not equal footing. 

You refuse to accept that in the very specific situations being talked about, the one guy is NOT trying to square up or get up.  

 

If a guy is making any effort to improve his position or get up (even a slow one) then 5 seconds is absolutely not unreasonable.  If during that slow 5 seconds of improving position the top man jumps the gun and goes for a TD, it should be nothing.  But if the guy is trying to stay in the disadvantage position because he doesn't want to be in a spot he can be scored on, then he does not deserve 5 seconds of time wasting.  Make him wrestle, even if it is cautious and smart wrestling.

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