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The escape that isn't really an escape


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#21 madcat11

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:01 AM

I didn’t see this match, but it drives me nuts when a guy is broken and the offensive wrestler breaks all contact steps in front and throws his hands up (a la Metcalf) and then goes behind for no points. It’s either an escape and 2 or it’s stalling on bottom.

#22 BigTenFanboy

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:05 AM

I didn’t see this match, but it drives me nuts when a guy is broken and the offensive wrestler breaks all contact steps in front and throws his hands up (a la Metcalf) and then goes behind for no points. It’s either an escape and 2 or it’s stalling on bottom.

 

A better example would be Eric Grajales vs Andrew Alton in what was probably the worst officiated match in the history of mankind!


Edited by BigTenFanboy, 12 February 2018 - 08:06 AM.

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#23 steamboat_charlie

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:08 AM

Nolf does this all the time. It is not an escape until the other guy turns and faces. Why Nolf (or anyone else) does this may be psychological, might be just to keep the pace high. 

 

Yeah, the old Metcalf special. 


Edited by steamboat_charlie, 12 February 2018 - 08:08 AM.


#24 madcat11

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:08 AM

A better example would be Eric Grajales vs Alton

One of my faves.

#25 boconnell

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:26 AM

If the bottom guy is trying to escape its not an issue. Thats why the escapes should come quick. 

Yep.  If the bottom guy was trying to get away then it would not be an issue.  But at some point these guys decide they will try to stay on bottom even when being let up.  I have no problem with quick calls here.  Make the wrestler defend himself and wrestle.  



#26 Crotalus

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:58 AM

Yep. If the bottom guy was trying to get away then it would not be an issue. But at some point these guys decide they will try to stay on bottom even when being let up. I have no problem with quick calls here. Make the wrestler defend himself and wrestle.

I agree as well. In the bottom position you should be trying for an escape or reversal. If a guy is letting you up and you aren't trying to get away, then it should be an automatic stalling. And if the guy breaks contact while facing you, you should pop up and defend yourself. We all know the reason someone takes so long to escape is to slow down the match, whether it be to stop a comeback or avoid a tech fall. I have no sympathy for a guy who gave up a quick two because he refused to take the escape he was given.

#27 Plasmodium

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:14 AM

I agree as well. In the bottom position you should be trying for an escape or reversal. If a guy is letting you up and you aren't trying to get away, then it should be an automatic stalling. And if the guy breaks contact while facing you, you should pop up and defend yourself. We all know the reason someone takes so long to escape is to slow down the match, whether it be to stop a comeback or avoid a tech fall. I have no sympathy for a guy who gave up a quick two because he refused to take the escape he was given.

Pop up so you can be blast doubled to next week?  No thanks!  The defending wrestler should be in an equal position before an escape is awarded.



#28 boconnell

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:31 AM

Pop up so you can be blast doubled to next week?  No thanks!  The defending wrestler should be in an equal position before an escape is awarded.

Nobody is arguing that.  But the defending wrestler has to work to get to an equal position.  He can't just sit there with his head down to avoid an equal position and stop the action.  



#29 Crotalus

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:26 AM

Pop up so you can be blast doubled to next week?  No thanks! 

This is exactly the problem. In this situation, the wrestler on bottom has usually reached their breaking point and is trying to avoid being scored on any way they can, either hold on to a win, or to avoid giving up bonus points. If the top man only has his hands on you and you are not trying to get to your feet, stalling should be called immediately. It should not even be the top guy's responsibility to get around front and face you. I'd be in favor of a rule that results in immediate points if the bottom man doesn't get up and defend himself immediately (in theory, in practice it would be hard to call objectively). I'm certainly not got to feel sorry for a guy getting a quick 2 called on him when he was just trying to avoid wrestling.



#30 Plasmodium

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:14 PM

Apart from the out of bounds situation, stalling should never be called immediately. The defensive wrestler is entitled to a bit of time to get to a comfortable position.

#31 Crotalus

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:52 PM

The defensive wrestler is entitled to a bit of time to get to a comfortable position.

I think that is ridiculous. If you are not trying to get up to your feet while the top guy is letting you up, then you are flat out stalling. It's pretty damn easy to do a standup when the top guy only has a couple of hands on you. And you can do so while defending yourself against the impending takedown attempt. That is unless you are too tire, which is why the defensive wrestler takes so long to get up. If you choose to defend yourself by staying in a ball, then I am fine with a quick escape and takedown call. 



#32 Plasmodium

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 01:12 PM

I think that is ridiculous. If you are not trying to get up to your feet while the top guy is letting you up, then you are flat out stalling. It's pretty damn easy to do a standup when the top guy only has a couple of hands on you. And you can do so while defending yourself against the impending takedown attempt. That is unless you are too tire, which is why the defensive wrestler takes so long to get up. If you choose to defend yourself by staying in a ball, then I am fine with a quick escape and takedown call.

Nothing ridiculous about neutral being neutral.

#33 boconnell

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 02:05 PM

Nothing ridiculous about neutral being neutral.

You're not calling stalling there because neutral isn't neutral.  You're calling it because refusing to improve position is the very definition of stalling.  


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#34 ionel

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 02:09 PM

neutral being neutral


neutral isn't neutral


I'm confused ;_;

#35 Plasmodium

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 02:50 PM

You're not calling stalling there because neutral isn't neutral. You're calling it because refusing to improve position is the very definition of stalling.

It's not stalling in the first few seconds. The offensive wrestler figures he improves his position by releasing you. Fair enough. The defensive wrestler improves his position by being released to a position of neutrality. It's just common sense.

#36 BigTenFanboy

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 02:52 PM

It's not stalling in the first few seconds. The offensive wrestler figures he improves his position by releasing you. Fair enough. The defensive wrestler improves his position by being released to a position of neutrality. It's just common sense.


The ironic thing is releasing a guy to neutral technically isn't improving your position, the the opposite.

#37 madcat11

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 03:03 PM

Apart from the out of bounds situation, stalling should never be called immediately. The defensive wrestler is entitled to a bit of time to get to a comfortable position.

DF?

#38 Plasmodium

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 03:20 PM

DF?

Exactly. That is also a good time to tie your shoes, fix your knee pads, adjust your head gear and perform an elaborate search for imaginary blood.

#39 wreferee

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 07:18 AM

Ask any experienced official about this call in this situation in this particular dual and expect an honest professional's response to reference both timing and potential for bias. In short, Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year, Birthday, Hannukah,...etc, etc.,etc.....(fill in the blank)
"Nolite dare sanctum canibus, neque mittatis margaritas vestras ante porcos, ne forte conculcent eas pedibus suis, et conversi disrumptam vos"

#40 pamela

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 07:35 AM

I've seen Nolf do it to catch a guy sleeping and pin him. (multiple times)

 

Speaking of the "Metcalf special", here's a good one of Brent catching an opponent the same way... bottom man was gesturing to the ref about Metcalf putting downward pressure on his head and got pinned doing so.

 

https://www.flowrest...playing=5172472

 

around the 8:35 mark


Edited by pamela, 13 February 2018 - 07:35 AM.

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