Jump to content
NJDan

What about Coon for Hodge

Recommended Posts

What was I wrong about genius? My point was the weight class is weak. Your brilliant response was to name a single wrestler as evidence that it’s not weak. A freshman who hasn’t been to the NCAA tourney is your evidence.

I allow myself to be wrong. I remember both times.

You must be Deluca’s dad/uncle or something. Maybe his older brother

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You must be Deluca’s dad/uncle or something. Maybe his older brother

And your basing your conclusion on what? What have I posted that is incorrect? Is 149 a good weight class this year? Does it approach he brackets at that weight that we’ve seen over the past 5-10 years? Nope.

 

Mild personal attack. Well done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And your basing your conclusion on what? What have I posted that is incorrect? Is 149 a good weight class this year? Does it approach he brackets at that weight that we’ve seen over the past 5-10 years? Nope.

 

Mild personal attack. Well done.

 

Retherford, a returning world team member with a win over Logan Steiber as a true frosh, is the only dude in the history of the weight class to win back-to-back titles and you're response is "weak weight." This is as laughable as Deluca's gameplan going into the dual. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Retherford, a returning world team member with a win over Logan Steiber as a true frosh, is the only dude in the history of the weight class to win back-to-back titles and you're response is "weak weight." This is as laughable as Deluca's gameplan going into the dual.

Not sure why you keep mentioning Deluca.

 

What have you payed to refute my original point? Is this a weak weight class?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure why you keep mentioning Deluca.

 

What have you payed to refute my original point? Is this a weak weight class?

 

You asked how I came to the Deluca conclusion.... So of course I'd bring him up again. It's ok, try to keep up. But no, not even close to a weak weight.  In fact, former NCAA champ Jason Tsirtsis is currently ranked 12th.  After looking over the brackets you mentioned from the last 5-10 years there has never been a weight so stacked that a former champ was ranked 12th.  So actually, I'd say its more or less the toughest its been in a decade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You mentioned Deluca, not I. I responded to you mentioning him.

You’re not very good at this.

 

Is Tsirtsis the same wrestler he was 3-4 years ago? I assume you don’t see the difference. Sad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure why you keep mentioning Deluca.

 

What have you payed to refute my original point? Is this a weak weight class?

 

Weak is subjective, and weak compared to what? 157? Half of the top 10 at 157 and 80 percent of the next 10 at 157 used to be 149 lbs. Maybe some of them left 149 to get out of Zain's weight class. Who is to say? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You asked how I came to the Deluca conclusion.... So of course I'd bring him up again. It's ok, try to keep up. But no, not even close to a weak weight.  In fact, former NCAA champ Jason Tsirtsis is currently ranked 12th.  After looking over the brackets you mentioned from the last 5-10 years there has never been a weight so stacked that a former champ was ranked 12th.  So actually, I'd say its more or less the toughest its been in a decade.

That comment is ridiculously disingenuous.  Tsirtis is NO WHERE NEAR the same guy that was an NCAA champ.  Actually, he IS only as high as 12th BECAUSE the weight class is pretty thin.

 

Let's be very specific.

 

1.)Retherford-World Class

2.)Sorenson-A step below elite.  Future 4X AA puts him in an Eric Tannenbaum type position.

 

It drops considerably after that. 

 

3.Leeth-Exhibit A that this weight is pretty thin.  Solid kid, but nothing special.  Is 1-1 with an undersized Boo and has a loss to Davion Jeffries.  A 3-1 win over Oliver is his claim to fame.

4.Oliver-Fringe AA type his 1st 2 years and is now higher due as much to how thin the weight class is as anything else.

5.Deakin-He may prove to be at that level over time.  But, he is still a freshman that has yet to wrestle at NCAA's.  In fact, he has been lauded more for his close losses than any top wins.  He has lost to Retherford, Sorenson, Oliver and Kolodzik.  His best wins are Tsirtsis and Lugo.

6.Hayes-Could be good, but is in a bit smaller, but similar, boat.  Being his first year that data is incomplete.

7.Thomsen-Fringe AA type that had a pretty decent draw at NCAA's beating Cimato, Gardner and then Theobold to make the Semis.

8.Heilman-Decent....

9.McCrystal-See above

10.Tsirtsis-Huh?  Just got majored by Schuyler.

11.Deluca-Likes MMA?

12.Kolodzik-Talented, but undersized and a bit soft.

 

Need I go on?  Now, these are all DI wrestlers so it isn't like they are bums, but when you want to compare this weight to the rest, it doesn't stack up very well......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That comment is ridiculously disingenuous.  Tsirtis is NO WHERE NEAR the same guy that was an NCAA champ.  Actually, he IS only as high as 12th BECAUSE the weight class is pretty thin.

 

Let's be very specific.

 

1.)Retherford-World Class

2.)Sorenson-A step below elite.  Future 4X AA puts him in an Eric Tannenbaum type position.

 

It drops considerably after that. 

 

3.Leeth-Exhibit A that this weight is pretty thin.  Solid kid, but nothing special.  Is 1-1 with an undersized Boo and has a loss to Davion Jeffries.  A 3-1 win over Oliver is his claim to fame.

4.Oliver-Fringe AA type his 1st 2 years and is now higher due as much to how thin the weight class is as anything else.

5.Deakin-He may prove to be at that level over time.  But, he is still a freshman that has yet to wrestle at NCAA's.  In fact, he has been lauded more for his close losses than any top wins.  He has lost to Retherford, Sorenson, Oliver and Kolodzik.  His best wins are Tsirtsis and Lugo.

6.Hayes-Could be good, but is in a bit smaller, but similar, boat.  Being his first year that data is incomplete.

7.Thomsen-Fringe AA type that had a pretty decent draw at NCAA's beating Cimato, Gardner and then Theobold to make the Semis.

8.Heilman-Decent....

9.McCrystal-See above

10.Tsirtsis-Huh?  Just got majored by Schuyler.

11.Deluca-Likes MMA?

12.Kolodzik-Talented, but undersized and a bit soft.

 

Need I go on?  Now, these are all DI wrestlers so it isn't like they are bums, but when you want to compare this weight to the rest, it doesn't stack up very well......

 

name a weight class with more cumulative NCAA titles among current competitors, I'll wait. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

name a weight class with more cumulative NCAA titles among current competitors, I'll wait. 

Name a weight class where one of those titles is held by a guy that had to transfer after his sister and best friend died in the same year, got a bit pudgy, was fortunate to be granted a 6th year and was a backup for most of the season?

 

 

Plus, your argument sucks considering the point is the weight class is thin OTHER THAN Retherford...........

Edited by MSU158

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For comparison:

 

125:

1.Cruz-Defending Champ and took 7th as a freshman and R12 as a soph.

2.Suriano-Undefeated and an injury deprived him of a likely high AA finish.

3.Lee-Multiple World Champ and true freshman.

4.Tomasello-Former champ at 125 going 1st,3rd and 3rd so far at NCAA's.

5.Fausz-R12 last year, beat Piccininni and his only loss is to Fix 2-1.

6.Lizak-Defending Runner-up.

7.Piccininni-Defending 4th place.

8.Lamont-Freshman on par with Deakin so far.

9.Rivera-Freshman on par with Deakin so far.

10.Russell-Defending 7th place.

11.Bresser-R12 2 years ago, redshirted last year.

12.Mattin-Solid True Freshman.

13.Millhof-AA 2 years ago, redshirted last year.

 

133:  

1.Gross-Defending Runner-up.

2.Micic-Defending 4th place.

3.Pletcher-R12 undersized at 141 last year.

4.Brock-Defending 5th place.

5.Desanto-On par with Deakin so far.

6.Erneste-R16 last year.

7.Parker-Defending 8th place.

8.Bridges-Won his last 20 matches.  His losses are to DeSanto, Pletcher and Montoya.

9.Mueller-6th place last year at 125.

10.Terao-1-2 at 125 last year.

11.Forys-R16 at 133 last year.

12.McKee-R12 last year at 133.

 

141:

1.Meredith-2nd and 4th the last 2 years at 141.  Wrestled 133 as a TF for NCState before transferring to Wyoming.

2.Jack-5th,R12 and 3rd.

3.Eierman-5th as a freshman.  Has a win over a World Champ.

4.Yianni-World Champ and true freshman.

5.Zacherl-Career record of 74-8. 2x 1-2 at NCAA's.

6.Heil-4th,1st,1st,?

7.McKenna-3rd,R12 and now transferred to tOSU.

8.Lee-TF on par with Deakin so far.

9.Alber-1-2 and 2-2 at 133 the last 2 years.

10.Smith-1-2 last year as a freshman.

11.Karam-Solid freshman

12.Carr-Solid freshman

13.Red-Solid freshman

 

157:

1.Nolf-2nd,1st.  Only losses are to IMar and an injury default.

2.Kemerer-Defending 3rd place as a freshman.

3.Hidlay-Freshman currently looking much better than Deakin.

4.Lavallee-Defending runner-up.

5.Shields-1-2 as a freshman.

6.Pantaleo-6th as a soph at 149 2 years ago.  Redshirted last season.

7.Jordan-R12 and 4th at 149 the last 2 years.

8.Ream-Was 24-4 going into NCAA's and went 0-2.  Went 2-2 and 1-2 the 2 seasons prior.

9.Colgan-R12 last year.

10.Finesilver-R12 at 149 2 years ago.  Redshirted last season.

11.Berger-Defending 5th place.

12.Zilverberg-2-2 at 165 last year.

 

165:

1.IMAR-Chopped liver....

2.Marinelli-Undefeated freshman currently looking much better than Deakin.

3.Joseph-Defending Champ.

4.McFadden-6th place 2 years ago.  Redshirted last season.

5.Marstellar-Nothing needs saying.

6.Walsh-Defending 7th.

7.Lewis-World Champ.

8.Wanzek-3x Qualifer and R12 last season.

9.Massa-Defending 3rd place as a freshman.

10.White-See Ke-Shawn Hayes.

11.Wick-Freshman on par with Deakin.

12.Rogers-Defending 5th place.

 

174:

1.Valencia-Defending 3rd place as a freshman.

2.Hall-Defending Champ as a TF.

3.Lewis-4th and 6th at 165 last 2 seasons.

4.Kutler-13-1 at 157 as a freshman last year, but missed weight at EIWA's.

5.Amine-Defending 4th place as a freshman.

6.Jordan-Took 3rd twice at 165 before taking 2nd last year at 174.

7.Lujan-2-2 last year as a freshman.

8.Bernstein-R12 last year.

9.Subjeck-Beat Joseph last season ;)

10.Mejias-2-2 at 165 last season.

11.Kocer-2-2 and 1-2 last 2 seasons.

12.Lydy-Rough year as a freshman at 165 last year.

13.Smith-JuCo Champ redshirted last year for OkState.

 

184:

1.Nickal-2nd(174) and 1st last 2 seasons.

2.Martin-1st(174) and 5th last 2 seasons.

3.Renda-3rd 2 years ago.  Redshirted last season.

4.Preisch-R12 at 174 last season.

5.Abounader-Top 10 seed every year.  R12 2 years ago.  Redshirted last season.

6.Parker-R12 last season.

7.Ventz-Freshman on par with Deakin so far.

8.Zavatsky-R12 and 1-2 at NCAA's last 2 seasons.

9.Robertson-2-2 last year at 197.  Went 2-2 as a freshman at 184, didn't qualify at 174 as a soph.

10.Foster-Defending 7th place.

11.Dean-Destroyer of Worlds' little bro.

12.Gravina-Likes MMA?

 

197:The one weight as thin, or maybe thinner, than 149.

1.Moore-Defending 3rd place as a freshman.

2.Haught-1-2,6th and 4th the last 3 years.

3.Darmstadt-Likely Hodge winner and much ahead of Deakin as a freshman.

4.Miklus-Depends on which version shows up on any given day.

5.RashCutchsar-?????????????

6.Weigel-Defending 6th place.

7.Renaissance man

8.Wilcke-R12 last season.

9.Mattiace-2-2 last season.

10.Kasunic-America...F*** YEAH!!!

11.Rotert-1-2 last year.

12.Beazley-Defending 8th place.

 

285:

1.Coon-Beast moded the best "Any kind of wrestling" guy on the planet.

2.Snyder-Still the best "Any kind of wrestling" guy on the planet due to unfair size advantage.

3.Kasper-Defending 6th.

4.Nevills-Defending 5th.

5.Stoll-Defender of (S)Toll House Cookies.

6.Hemida-R12 last season.

7.Dhesi-5th place 2 years ago. Almost represented Canada in the Olympics.  Redshirted last season.

8.Butler-1-2 last season.

9.Hall-Defending 4th.

10.Hughes-Weighs 313 lbs the night before weigh-ins.

11.White-Beefed up 197.

12.Wood-Big name recruit.

13.Haines-Sanderson's trash, is Lock Haven's treasure!

Edited by MSU158

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Name a weight class where one of those titles is held by a guy that had to transfer after his sister and best friend died in the same year, got a bit pudgy, was fortunate to be granted a 6th year and was a backup for most of the season?

 

 

Plus, your argument sucks considering the point is the weight class is thin OTHER THAN Retherford...........

 

The lack of accolades among the group is due to Retherfords presence more than anything else.  Guys are going up to/staying down to avoid him.  Joey Mckenna and Keyshawn Hayes both stated that they preferred to be at 141 because although it may be a harder weight to AA at, it would be easier to win as opposed to 149. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The lack of accolades among the group is due to Retherfords presence more than anything else.  Guys are going up to/staying down to avoid him.  Joey Mckenna and Keyshawn Hayes both stated that they preferred to be at 141 because although it may be a harder weight to AA at, it would be easier to win as opposed to 149. 

Which is LITERALLY why the weight is thin.  You just proved my point and ruined your argument.....

 

 

No one has been arguing that Retherford isn't great.  The argument is that his "dominance" isn't as amazing due to how thin the weight is and that is why it may be overlooked a bit if Coon runs the table.

Edited by MSU158

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Which is LITERALLY why the weight is thin. You just proved my point and ruined your argument.....

 

 

No one has been arguing that Retherford isn't great. The argument is that his "dominance" isn't as amazing due to how thin the weight is and that is why it may be overlooked a bit if Coon runs the table.

WRONG. The weight is perceived as thin due to his dominance. Youve got guys that would prefer to throw themselves into the mix at 141 and potentially not even AA as opposed to go 7 minutes with Zain. Then you’ve got guys (Pantaleo/Jordan) that would rather bulk up then give it another go against Zain.

 

You can argue it’s a weak weight all day long, but it’s simply not the case. Tough guys are ducking the weight because of how difficult it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WRONG. The weight is perceived as thin due to his dominance. Youve got guys that would prefer to throw themselves into the mix at 141 and potentially not even AA as opposed to go 7 minutes with Zain. Then you’ve got guys (Pantaleo/Jordan) that would rather bulk up then give it another go against Zain.

 

You can argue it’s a weak weight all day long, but it’s simply not the case. Tough guys are ducking the weight because of how difficult it is.

How can you give examples of very good wrestlers avoiding/leaving the weight class, but not realize that talent drain makes the depth weaker?  Logic doesn't allow you to understand the one and argue the other.  

 

And guys aren't avoiding the weight, they are avoiding Zain.  Zain makes 149 thin and 141 incredibly deep.  He is the boogie man.

Edited by boconnell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Which is LITERALLY why the weight is thin.  You just proved my point and ruined your argument.....

 

 

No one has been arguing that Retherford isn't great.  The argument is that his "dominance" isn't as amazing due to how thin the weight is and that is why it may be overlooked a bit if Coon runs the table.

 

 

What is more dominant, getting guys to run from the weight class or pinning those that stay? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How can you give examples of very good wrestlers avoiding/leaving the weight class, but not realize that talent drain makes the depth weaker?  Logic doesn't allow you to understand the one and argue the other.  

 

And guys aren't avoiding the weight, they are avoiding Zain.  Zain makes 149 thin and 141 incredibly deep.  He is the boogie man.

 

 

Zain is Keyser Soze. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Defender of Toll house cookies? - from what I've seen of Stoll he is the destroyer of Toll house cookie worlds. I wonder what happens to him after he no longer has to make weight or expend calories pushing massive blobs around mats? He'd best eat only salads if he get a sedentary job (maybe astronaut like Coon?). Big boys. If NASA wanted to send Coon and Stoll into space together they would need a bigger rocket than anything that exists. It would be fun to see them wrestle in a weightless environment though.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How can you give examples of very good wrestlers avoiding/leaving the weight class, but not realize that talent drain makes the depth weaker?  Logic doesn't allow you to understand the one and argue the other.  

 

And guys aren't avoiding the weight, they are avoiding Zain.  Zain makes 149 thin and 141 incredibly deep.  He is the boogie man.

None of the top 141 or 157 pounders are avoiding the Zain Train.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is more dominant, getting guys to run from the weight class or pinning those that stay? 

Not arguing against that at all.  Remember, I have been saying he deserves the Hodge over Snyder all year.  I just said his actual statistics for this season aren't, by themselves, as special due to who he is actually beating. That, is why I think it is plausible to give the Hodge to Coon if he keeps the same pace and beats Snyder at B1G's and again at NCAA's.  

 

Now, I am not even saying the Coon would clearly deserve it.  I just think it makes it a very close argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...