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Is your state doing it worse than VA?


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#1 Chrissn2001

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 08:49 AM

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6 divisions and in a high school gym for their state meet. 



#2 JasonBryant

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 10:25 AM

It’s embarrassing. I don’t like to say things are a joke because the term is overused but the VHSL is a friggin joke.
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#3 leshismore

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 08:09 AM

In wrestling it is travesty to have more than one class in any state. 

 

I personally have never met anyone who was a state champ in a single division state meet say:

 

"Gee I wish there were 2 [or 3,4,5] divisions in my state when I won". 


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#4 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 08:27 AM

In wrestling it is travesty to have more than one class in any state. 

 

I personally have never met anyone who was a state champ in a single division state meet say:

 

"Gee I wish there were 2 [or 3,4,5] divisions in my state when I won". 

And the small-school wrestlers who finished second, third, fourth, and fifth didn't say that when they got beaten by a student from a school with 3,000+ kids?

 

In principle, I agree with you, but with the caveat that that's, for me, been turned on its head a little bit by IndianaMat's study, that the state placers for each (would-be, Indiana only has one class in reality) class is not even proportional to the number of students in each school at each level, but even higher than that. One thing I don't understand is states that have multiple-class state championships, that feed to a "meet of champions" of some sort. That, to me, seems a bit ridiculous.


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#5 leshismore

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 09:03 AM

And the small-school wrestlers who finished second, third, fourth, and fifth didn't say that when they got beaten by a student from a school with 3,000+ kids?

 

In principle, I agree with you, but with the caveat that that's, for me, been turned on its head a little bit by IndianaMat's study, that the state placers for each (would-be, Indiana only has one class in reality) class is not even proportional to the number of students in each school at each level, but even higher than that. One thing I don't understand is states that have multiple-class state championships, that feed to a "meet of champions" of some sort. That, to me, seems a bit ridiculous.

Sorry, I disagree.  My 2 cents.  I wish more states, if not all states, with different classes would have all "State Champs" have a quick mini duel to see who is actually the State Champ.  I know of many people who feel the same way.

It robs the wrestler from not being a true State Champ, and it robs the fans from seeing great matches.

 

I was in New York when they switched to 2 divisions.  It was and is a travesty.  So many great matches are missed due to this.


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#6 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 09:51 AM

Sorry, I disagree.  My 2 cents.  I wish more states, if not all states, with different classes would have all "State Champs" have a quick mini duel to see who is actually the State Champ.  I know of many people who feel the same way.

It robs the wrestler from not being a true State Champ, and it robs the fans from seeing great matches.

 

I was in New York when they switched to 2 divisions.  It was and is a travesty.  So many great matches are missed due to this.

I think you misunderstood...I'd be all for one-class. I just don't understand the having four-classes (for example) and then a "Meet of Champions", so to speak. Because I would highly doubt that the (in a four-class situation) "state champ" in 1A would feel like a state champ if they lost to the 4A "state champ" in the semifinals in that sort of scenario.

 

In short, if you're going to have feeders into that Meet of Champions, have the feeders based on geography, or at least something other than enrollment of the schools.


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#7 Chrissn2001

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 09:58 AM

Sorry, I disagree.  My 2 cents.  I wish more states, if not all states, with different classes would have all "State Champs" have a quick mini duel to see who is actually the State Champ.  I know of many people who feel the same way.

It robs the wrestler from not being a true State Champ, and it robs the fans from seeing great matches.

 

I was in New York when they switched to 2 divisions.  It was and is a travesty.  So many great matches are missed due to this.

I don't think today's kids would buy into this.  I know I sound old saying this.  Once they earn the title "state champ" they aren't going to wrestle another match to prove they're the "all state champ."  Virginia was doing this for a while (maybe they still are), but it wasn't recognized by the state league.  Some kids would show up, but most times you had to fill in with placers rather than champs.  



#8 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 10:04 AM

I don't think today's kids would buy into this.  I know I sound old saying this.  Once they earn the title "state champ" they aren't going to wrestle another match to prove they're the "all state champ."  Virginia was doing this for a while (maybe they still are), but it wasn't recognized by the state league.  Some kids would show up, but most times you had to fill in with placers rather than champs.  

Some states do this, actually, especially in New England, where those "all-state" tournaments feed into the New England Championships, which are (obviously) one-class.


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#9 Chrissn2001

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 10:07 AM

Some states do this, actually, especially in New England, where those "all-state" tournaments feed into the New England Championships, which are (obviously) one-class.

Then it becomes a state vs. state situation?  I could see kids/coaches wanting to participate in something like that.  Now, there's a new goal to accomplish.  Verifying your state championship by beating another state champ doesn't seem appealing.  


Edited by Chrissn2001, 17 February 2018 - 10:08 AM.


#10 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 10:13 AM

Then it becomes a state vs. state situation?  I could see kids/coaches wanting to participate in something like that.  Now, there's a new goal to accomplish.  Verifying your state championship by beating another state champ doesn't seem appealing.  

Yep!

 

Importantly, though, the New England Championships are recognized by the six state associations (the CIAC, MPA, MIAA, NHIAA, RIIL, and VPA). Not sure the rest of the country's state associations would do that...


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#11 Chrissn2001

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 10:26 AM

Yep!

 

Importantly, though, the New England Championships are recognized by the six state associations (the CIAC, MPA, MIAA, NHIAA, RIIL, and VPA). Not sure the rest of the country's state associations would do that...

and with all due respect, those states start with rather small participation numbers, right?  Are they all single division states?  



#12 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 10:51 AM

and with all due respect, those states start with rather small participation numbers, right?  Are they all single division states?  

No, they are not all one-class. For example, the CIAC (Connecticut) has four classes, namely LL, L, M, and S, from largest to smallest. The top six wrestlers at each weight in each class advance to the Open state tournaments, where the top five wrestlers advance to New Englands.

 

Maine actually used to have three classes, where just the winners of each class advanced to New Englands. They changed it a few years back (not sure exactly when) to go to two classes (with regionals, then "states"), and then have a New England Qualifier where the top three wrestlers at each weight qualify for New Englands.


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#13 cjc007

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 01:27 PM

I could see the use for multiple divisions for a dual team tournament, but not for individual states.

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#14 leshismore

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 05:49 AM

I think you misunderstood...I'd be all for one-class. I just don't understand the having four-classes (for example) and then a "Meet of Champions", so to speak. Because I would highly doubt that the (in a four-class situation) "state champ" in 1A would feel like a state champ if they lost to the 4A "state champ" in the semifinals in that sort of scenario.

 

In short, if you're going to have feeders into that Meet of Champions, have the feeders based on geography, or at least something other than enrollment of the schools.

Sorry about that.  It is time to change the magnification on my glasses.


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#15 leshismore

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 05:51 AM

No, they are not all one-class. For example, the CIAC (Connecticut) has four classes, namely LL, L, M, and S, from largest to smallest. The top six wrestlers at each weight in each class advance to the Open state tournaments, where the top five wrestlers advance to New Englands.

 

Maine actually used to have three classes, where just the winners of each class advanced to New Englands. They changed it a few years back (not sure exactly when) to go to two classes (with regionals, then "states"), and then have a New England Qualifier where the top three wrestlers at each weight qualify for New Englands.

I actually love this idea.  I have never been, but this year I am going to the New Englands.  Should be good. Kids become a class state champ... then a state champ, then maybe a NE Champ.


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#16 davenowa

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 06:50 AM

in terms of states having class tournaments based on enrollment, followed by an all-state tourney, this allows TEAMS the opportunity to be state TEAM champs against other schools of comparable size.  while it is true that an individual could achieve the highest success without regard to the number of students in the school, in a public school setting, it is difficult for the best small schools (ie under 250 boys in grades 9-12) to be as strong as the best schools with over 1000 boys (especially with 14 weight classes). Since the TEAM champion is determined at the individually bracketed tourney in many states, the need exists.  However, if the TEAM championship were to be determined by a DUAL tournament (based on school enrollment), I would agree that the INDIVIDUAL state champ be determined from a single event.  

 

The New England Tournament is a nice 2-day, 8 mat event in Providence, with top 7 from MA, 5 from CT and 3 each from VT/MA/RI/ME (based on population, number of teams and participants), creating a 24-man bracket.



#17 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 06:59 AM

in terms of states having class tournaments based on enrollment, followed by an all-state tourney, this allows TEAMS the opportunity to be state TEAM champs against other schools of comparable size.  while it is true that an individual could achieve the highest success without regard to the number of students in the school, in a public school setting, it is difficult for the best small schools (ie under 250 boys in grades 9-12) to be as strong as the best schools with over 1000 boys (especially with 14 weight classes). Since the TEAM champion is determined at the individually bracketed tourney in many states, the need exists.  However, if the TEAM championship were to be determined by a DUAL tournament (based on school enrollment), I would agree that the INDIVIDUAL state champ be determined from a single event.  

 

The New England Tournament is a nice 2-day, 8 mat event in Providence, with top 7 from MA, 5 from CT and 3 each from VT/MA/RI/ME (based on population, number of teams and participants), creating a 24-man bracket.

They can't have the teams classed, based on one individual tournament? I know that's what they do in the NJCAA (having one championship, but having a scholarship team champion and a non-scholarship team champion).


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#18 KTG119

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 07:44 AM

Virginia

1A Grundy wins by 95.

2A Poquoson wins by 105.5.

3A C'burg wins by 115.

4A Eastern View wins by 16.5.

5A Brooke Point wins by 55.5

6A Battlefield wins by 85.5


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#19 JasonBryant

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 01:48 PM

I feel bad for all those kids. What's sad is typically the most egregious issues come from the Salem Civic Center. It's pretty terrible if things get so bad, they want to go back to the old way in Salem. 

It's embarrassing for everyone. I'm happy my alma mater won a state title and had five state champions, but six public classes is too many and the leadership with the VHSL for these events is essentially not caring. The kids don't deserve their moment to be something like this. 

 


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#20 TripNSweep

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 06:01 PM

We have 4 classes in my state.  Which is about what it should be.  The problem is they're lopsided as hell.  It's an improvement because we had 6 classes for about 8 years or so, so I'm glad we came to our senses.  By lopsided I mean Division 1, which is the biggest schools, only has 39 teams in it.  But the other 3 divisions have 50+ teams in each.  We have a qualifier for state, sectionals, and place top 4 you go to state.  Each class has 4 sectionals, so it's a 16 person bracket.  So some of the sectionals that were just released after realignment this year make no sense.  There's one in Division 1 that only has 9 schools, but there's a few in the smaller classes that have 17 or 19 schools in one section.  

 

The other problem is where state is held.  It might make sense to hold it in a large city where travel is minimal, but for the last I think 6 years it's been at Prescott Valley, which is about 90 miles away almost in the middle of nowhere.  I will say the arena it's held at is pretty nice, not many bad seats and it's easy to walk around, parking is easy, but it's just such a pain in the ass because there's only like 4 high schools that are within a 20 minute drive of the place.  The reason they have state there is apparently because the owner of the arena gives the AIA (our state organization) a big price break on rental or something.  I'd rather it be held at the Veterans Memorial Coliseum near downtown Phoenix.  It used to be there.  Mostly because the Phoenix metro area has the most high schools in the state and there's cheaper hotel options than a place that's basically a designed tourist trap.  

 

I am glad we hand out medals for the top 6 now.  For a few years only the top 3 or 4 got medals and the rest just got to stand there.  When the Us Marines offered to sponsor the awards so that the top 6 would all get something, the AIA told them no.  


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