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Chrissn2001

Is your state doing it worse than VA?

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shp--while I think that an individually bracketed tournament consisting of 20-30 schools of similar size classifications would generally produce a similar winner if those same top schools were paired in a dual format, I don't think the same can be said when an all-state individual tournament with over 100 schools of various size classifications are involved.  in that scenario, a small-school team with 2-3 studs and nothing else could score around 60-80 points and be the highest finishing small school, but in the 20-30 team scenario, those same 60 points would not get you top 10.  I don't believe they are truly the team champs (lacking a dual format).

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here's what you get in Va with 6 public school divisions, from a post by Eiwaman found here

 

http://forum.virginiawrestling.com/topic.php?id=25396&page=6:

 

 I went through all the finals matches (6a-1a) and out of 84 matches 30 ended in a fall or TF. That's 35% and for a state finals that's really high. This speaks to the issue we've been discussing in terms of thinning out the competition and making the tournament less competitive. 

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shp--while I think that an individually bracketed tournament consisting of 20-30 schools of similar size classifications would generally produce a similar winner if those same top schools were paired in a dual format, I don't think the same can be said when an all-state individual tournament with over 100 schools of various size classifications are involved.  in that scenario, a small-school team with 2-3 studs and nothing else could score around 60-80 points and be the highest finishing small school, but in the 20-30 team scenario, those same 60 points would not get you top 10.  I don't believe they are truly the team champs (lacking a dual format).

That is very true. In Texas, in Track & Field, a couple of years ago, one girl competed in five events, won them all, and her team won the state title on the backs of that one person!

 

Then again, the solution there is probably is to have a (multi-classed) dual championship...just my thinking.

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Obviously I’m in Ohio. I think that three divisions should be the maximum as Ohio High School Athletics Association (OHSAA) were able to fit all three divisions in three day tourney at a single arena (tOSU’s Schottenstein center- used to be at bit smaller St John’s Arena). That’s it. I’m for two divisions if it helps the kids more to get a scholarship ride.

 

OHSAA has the sectional, district, and state championships with 16 man, double elimination format each championship level.

 

So far, it has worked just fine. Other states should follow PA or Ohio state formats. IMO.

Edited by Buckeyebison

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And the small-school wrestlers who finished second, third, fourth, and fifth didn't say that when they got beaten by a student from a school with 3,000+ kids?

 

In principle, I agree with you, but with the caveat that that's, for me, been turned on its head a little bit by IndianaMat's study, that the state placers for each (would-be, Indiana only has one class in reality) class is not even proportional to the number of students in each school at each level, but even higher than that. One thing I don't understand is states that have multiple-class state championships, that feed to a "meet of champions" of some sort. That, to me, seems a bit ridiculous.

 

For individual sports (track & field, tennis, golf, wrestling, etc...) no state should have more than one champion.  

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@TripnSweep: I had no idea Arizona had so much going on in HS wrestling. Sounds a little crazy how they are doing it, but an impressive number of teams.

 

I like the system but my two complaints are the lopsided divisions in the terms of numbers of teams and the fact they hold the state tournament in the middle of nowhere.  

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I like that we have only one class in NJ. With that said, the private schools should not be in the same districts and regions as the public schools.

Why, so they get unfairly underrepresented in Atlantic City, or are you going to give them more spots in the state tournament to compensate?

 

Otherwise, we're going to have to agree to disagree. The qualifying road to the state championships, IMO, should work so that everybody has the same difficulty in getting there (that's why they re-did the districts and regions two years ago). What you're suggesting, of course, would turn that on its head.

Edited by SetonHallPirate

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Private schools have a huge team advantage, but once the individual tourney starts, everyone is equal.

NJ has real state champs. 4-6 divisions? I’m weak states?

Crazy.

Everyone is not equal. Practice partners, coaching and number of coaches, better facilities, more one sport athletes, are amongst reasons why kids from bigger schools have more success.

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Tennessee:  199 teams offer high school wrestling for boys

3 divisions:  D1 A/AA for the smaller public schools, D1 AAA for the larger public schools and D2 for the private schools

The TSSAA (Tennessee Secondary School Athletic Association) host the state tournament for the 3 boys divisions plus the girls division at the Williamson County Agricultural Center.  This facility places a tarp over the manure and dirt before putting the mats on top of the tarp.  There are no shower facilities for the wrestlers or officials and the spectators are so far away from the action that it makes it difficult to see with the poor lighting in the arena.  The state association (TSSAA) is out of touch with reality and shows no desire to make any of the state championship events in Tennessee a premier event.  This is what you get when you appoint educators to operate a multi million dollar business and they don't have the training to operate the local lemonade stand.  Tennessee should move the state tournament to another facility and have one division for the boys.  Tennessee does not have enough schools offering wrestling to have two much less three divisions.

Edited by cbg

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Everyone is not equal. Practice partners, coaching and number of coaches, better facilities, more one sport athletes, are amongst reasons why kids from bigger schools have more success.

20-30 years ago, perhaps. Now, the elite kids all train at private clubs, often with their top competition.

You can be good from anywhere, if you have access to a good club.

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20-30 years ago, perhaps. Now, the elite kids all train at private clubs, often with their top competition.

You can be good from anywhere, if you have access to a good club.

IF.... kids from rural smaller schools are at a big disadvantage. 

 

New Jersey is densely populated and doesn't have the big difference in school enrollments like states that have more area.

 

There is more to the world than New Jersey.

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IF.... kids from rural smaller schools are at a big disadvantage. 

 

New Jersey is densely populated and doesn't have the big difference in school enrollments like states that have more area.

 

There is more to the world than New Jersey.

What about kids from smaller schools in major metropolitan areas (like a parochial school that doubles as a wrestling factory, for example)?

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I think you misunderstood...I'd be all for one-class. I just don't understand the having four-classes (for example) and then a "Meet of Champions", so to speak. Because I would highly doubt that the (in a four-class situation) "state champ" in 1A would feel like a state champ if they lost to the 4A "state champ" in the semifinals in that sort of scenario.

 

In short, if you're going to have feeders into that Meet of Champions, have the feeders based on geography, or at least something other than enrollment of the schools.

I disagree. Class state champs feeding into a “Meet of Champions” is the best of both worlds, IMO. The 1A guy can certainly still consider himself a state champ. People still want to put an asterisk next to class state champs anyway, so in that sense not having them wrestle at all is pretty much just as bad as if they wrestled and lost.

 

Obviously there’d be some details to work out. Would it be only champs? A certain number of qualifiers? IMO, if you really want it to be a “Tournament of Champions,” it should just be the winners, which would ideally be grouped into 4 classes.

 

Like several others here I went to HS in NJ. I don’t think they should change the format because that’s the way it’s been for so long. However I believe Cross Country still has a Meet of Champs. It’s a little different because the same Meet determines both the team and individual results (and I think wrestling team champs should be determined by duals), but I don’t think it takes anything away from the Group State Championships.

Edited by 1032004

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What about kids from smaller schools in major metropolitan areas (like a parochial school that doubles as a wrestling factory, for example)?

That is an exception to the rule, plus when you talk a private or parochial school you are dealing with a whole different animal.

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I disagree. Class state champs feeding into a “Meet of Champions” is the best of both worlds, IMO. The 1A guy can certainly still consider himself a state champ. People still want to put an asterisk next to class state champs anyway, so in that sense not having them wrestle at all is pretty much just as bad as if they wrestled and lost.

How many states do a meet of champions?

How many have tried, but it failed miserably?

Who are the people who want to put an asterisk next to a state champ or placer's name?

 

Obviously there’d be some details to work out. Would it be only champs? A certain number of qualifiers? IMO, if you really want it to be a “Tournament of Champions,” it should just be the winners, which would ideally be grouped into 4 classes.

Like several others here I went to HS in NJ. I don’t think they should change the format because that’s the way it’s been for so long. However I believe Cross Country still has a Meet of Champs. It’s a little different because the same Meet determines both the team and individual results (and I think wrestling team champs should be determined by duals), but I don’t think it takes anything away from the Group State Championships.

The worst reason to keep something is because "that's the way we've always done it."

 

I'd like to see the statistics of state placers and champs are distributed by class size. 

 

Just for reference per a little research New Jersey schools with wrestling average 925 students, with a standard deviation of 468. That means most schools are between about 500-1300 students. If you compare Indiana has an average enrollment of wrestling schools of 966 with a standard deviation of 747. Both states have around 300 wrestling schools.

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How many states do a meet of champions?

How many have tried, but it failed miserably?

Who are the people who want to put an asterisk next to a state champ or placer's name?

 

The worst reason to keep something is because "that's the way we've always done it."

 

I'd like to see the statistics of state placers and champs are distributed by class size. 

 

Just for reference per a little research New Jersey schools with wrestling average 925 students, with a standard deviation of 468. That means most schools are between about 500-1300 students. If you compare Indiana has an average enrollment of wrestling schools of 966 with a standard deviation of 747. Both states have around 300 wrestling schools.

 

I have no idea how many states have a Meet of Champions.   I think the New England situation is similar and that seems to work OK.  I mentioned how I thought it worked pretty well in NJ cross country.    If I remember correctly even in wrestling NJ used to do a Meet of Champions for Duals, but not sure when that stopped.

 

The asterisk was a figure of speech.  But it seems most in this thread do not consider a classification state champ a real state champ.

 

For your statistics, I'd be interested to see as well but you'd of course have to look only at states that only have 1 state championship.   You'd probably also have to exclude private schools and schools like Bound Brook that take in kids from out of the district.

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I have no idea how many states have a Meet of Champions.   I think the New England situation is similar and that seems to work OK.  I mentioned how I thought it worked pretty well in NJ cross country.    If I remember correctly even in wrestling NJ used to do a Meet of Champions for Duals, but not sure when that stopped.

 

The asterisk was a figure of speech.  But it seems most in this thread do not consider a classification state champ a real state champ.

 

For your statistics, I'd be interested to see as well but you'd of course have to look only at states that only have 1 state championship.   You'd probably also have to exclude private schools and schools like Bound Brook that take in kids from out of the district.

So basically what you are saying has no backing with physical evidence, just what you have heard or what may have gone on. I prefer hard evidence that no one recognizes classed champs. 

 

I have the statistics for Indiana.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18PWUXrlIjvzl_-I-HaflCB2w-r0a_sTkH-WWOcFKl2g/edit?usp=sharing

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Good Table Senator. It would be interesting to see the same data for NJ and CALIF. (both tournaments are this weekend? Are there any other large states (say over 120 schools) or even over medium (say over 40) still with one class. Pa went to 2 classes 45 years ago. When did NY go to two classes? (about a dozen years ago?)

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