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Is your state doing it worse than VA?


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#21 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 06:34 PM

We have 4 classes in my state.  Which is about what it should be.  The problem is they're lopsided as hell.  It's an improvement because we had 6 classes for about 8 years or so, so I'm glad we came to our senses.  By lopsided I mean Division 1, which is the biggest schools, only has 39 teams in it.  But the other 3 divisions have 50+ teams in each.  We have a qualifier for state, sectionals, and place top 4 you go to state.  Each class has 4 sectionals, so it's a 16 person bracket.  So some of the sectionals that were just released after realignment this year make no sense.  There's one in Division 1 that only has 9 schools, but there's a few in the smaller classes that have 17 or 19 schools in one section.  

 

The other problem is where state is held.  It might make sense to hold it in a large city where travel is minimal, but for the last I think 6 years it's been at Prescott Valley, which is about 90 miles away almost in the middle of nowhere.  I will say the arena it's held at is pretty nice, not many bad seats and it's easy to walk around, parking is easy, but it's just such a pain in the ass because there's only like 4 high schools that are within a 20 minute drive of the place.  The reason they have state there is apparently because the owner of the arena gives the AIA (our state organization) a big price break on rental or something.  I'd rather it be held at the Veterans Memorial Coliseum near downtown Phoenix.  It used to be there.  Mostly because the Phoenix metro area has the most high schools in the state and there's cheaper hotel options than a place that's basically a designed tourist trap.  

 

I am glad we hand out medals for the top 6 now.  For a few years only the top 3 or 4 got medals and the rest just got to stand there.  When the Us Marines offered to sponsor the awards so that the top 6 would all get something, the AIA told them no.  

Looks like Division I is exclusively 6A schools, and Division II is exclusively 5A schools. Most of Division III is 4A schools, with a bunch of 3A schools as well (14, to be exact). The rest of 3A, along with all of 2A and 1A, are in Division IV. Did I mess anything up here?


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#22 TripNSweep

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 07:48 PM

Looks like Division I is exclusively 6A schools, and Division II is exclusively 5A schools. Most of Division III is 4A schools, with a bunch of 3A schools as well (14, to be exact). The rest of 3A, along with all of 2A and 1A, are in Division IV. Did I mess anything up here?

 

That's basically right, but it's pretty lopsided.  Because the way they did the realignment this bloc is that there's about 40 schools in each conference, so you have 39 Division 1 schools, but since there isn't 6 divisions for wrestling anymore, you end up with some divisions with over 60 schools in them.  There's about 200 schools with wrestling, they should just go top 50, then next 50, and so on.  12 schools in each section and you have a few with maybe 13.  I thought if it was going to be that lopsided they should expand to 5 if they weren't going to do it correctly, or just stay at 4 and balance everything out.  


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#23 TobusRex

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 01:45 AM

I prefer multiple divisions. Gives more kids a chance to win medals and gain confidence. So what if the A, 2A kids don't usually stand much of a chance against the 4A/5A kids, as long as they are having fun competing. The more people who grow to love our sport the better it's chance of survival.



#24 TobusRex

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 01:51 AM

It’s embarrassing. I don’t like to say things are a joke because the term is overused but the VHSL is a friggin joke.

 

 I'm sure they are doing the best they can.



#25 JasonBryant

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 02:02 AM

Tobus, after cutting the state tournament to one day and no double elimination in 2015, they further split it into six public classes and took four of the six state tournaments to high school gyms.

It’s not the best they can do, it’s the best they want to do. It’s bad.

This probably sums it up.

80862a11bbf4e7f5cc41db2e8d6a81ae.jpg

I don’t like to speak in hyperbole, but i’ve been watching /covering the tournament since 1996 and this is the worst it’s ever been.

They turned people away from two venues and two places also were unable to stream the event live because the VHSL failed to put the events in places that would allow live streaming. There are countless issues from four of the six tournaments. The kids deserve better.

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#26 TobusRex

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 02:34 AM

@TripnSweep: I had no idea Arizona had so much going on in HS wrestling. Sounds a little crazy how they are doing it, but an impressive number of teams.



#27 davenowa

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 06:11 AM

shp--while I think that an individually bracketed tournament consisting of 20-30 schools of similar size classifications would generally produce a similar winner if those same top schools were paired in a dual format, I don't think the same can be said when an all-state individual tournament with over 100 schools of various size classifications are involved.  in that scenario, a small-school team with 2-3 studs and nothing else could score around 60-80 points and be the highest finishing small school, but in the 20-30 team scenario, those same 60 points would not get you top 10.  I don't believe they are truly the team champs (lacking a dual format).



#28 KTG119

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 07:29 AM

here's what you get in Va with 6 public school divisions, from a post by Eiwaman found here

 

http://forum.virgini...d=25396&page=6:

 

 I went through all the finals matches (6a-1a) and out of 84 matches 30 ended in a fall or TF. That's 35% and for a state finals that's really high. This speaks to the issue we've been discussing in terms of thinning out the competition and making the tournament less competitive. 



#29 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 07:34 AM

shp--while I think that an individually bracketed tournament consisting of 20-30 schools of similar size classifications would generally produce a similar winner if those same top schools were paired in a dual format, I don't think the same can be said when an all-state individual tournament with over 100 schools of various size classifications are involved.  in that scenario, a small-school team with 2-3 studs and nothing else could score around 60-80 points and be the highest finishing small school, but in the 20-30 team scenario, those same 60 points would not get you top 10.  I don't believe they are truly the team champs (lacking a dual format).

That is very true. In Texas, in Track & Field, a couple of years ago, one girl competed in five events, won them all, and her team won the state title on the backs of that one person!

 

Then again, the solution there is probably is to have a (multi-classed) dual championship...just my thinking.


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#30 JasonBryant

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 07:44 AM

In Virginia, there were also 36 kids with records .500 or worse who qualified for the state tournament in the 1A and 2A divisions. I couldn't go to the other four and check stats, since there were incomplete records for those divisions. 


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#31 BobDole

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 07:44 AM

Two or three classes would be ideal for most states. 

 

The only place six classes would work is California and they would still have 150+ schools in each class.



#32 Buckeyebison

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 10:12 AM

Obviously I’m in Ohio. I think that three divisions should be the maximum as Ohio High School Athletics Association (OHSAA) were able to fit all three divisions in three day tourney at a single arena (tOSU’s Schottenstein center- used to be at bit smaller St John’s Arena). That’s it. I’m for two divisions if it helps the kids more to get a scholarship ride.

OHSAA has the sectional, district, and state championships with 16 man, double elimination format each championship level.

So far, it has worked just fine. Other states should follow PA or Ohio state formats. IMO.

Edited by Buckeyebison, 19 February 2018 - 10:14 AM.


#33 cbg

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 02:00 PM

And the small-school wrestlers who finished second, third, fourth, and fifth didn't say that when they got beaten by a student from a school with 3,000+ kids?

 

In principle, I agree with you, but with the caveat that that's, for me, been turned on its head a little bit by IndianaMat's study, that the state placers for each (would-be, Indiana only has one class in reality) class is not even proportional to the number of students in each school at each level, but even higher than that. One thing I don't understand is states that have multiple-class state championships, that feed to a "meet of champions" of some sort. That, to me, seems a bit ridiculous.

 

For individual sports (track & field, tennis, golf, wrestling, etc...) no state should have more than one champion.  


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#34 TripNSweep

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 04:01 PM

@TripnSweep: I had no idea Arizona had so much going on in HS wrestling. Sounds a little crazy how they are doing it, but an impressive number of teams.

 

I like the system but my two complaints are the lopsided divisions in the terms of numbers of teams and the fact they hold the state tournament in the middle of nowhere.  


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#35 BobDole

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 02:26 AM

For individual sports (track & field, tennis, golf, wrestling, etc...) no state should have more than one champion.  

 

We shouldn't worry about others destroying our sport, we are doing a fine job doing it internally.


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#36 JerseyJoey

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 03:55 PM

I like that we have only one class in NJ. With that said, the private schools should not be in the same districts and regions as the public schools.

#37 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 05:05 PM

I like that we have only one class in NJ. With that said, the private schools should not be in the same districts and regions as the public schools.

Why, so they get unfairly underrepresented in Atlantic City, or are you going to give them more spots in the state tournament to compensate?

 

Otherwise, we're going to have to agree to disagree. The qualifying road to the state championships, IMO, should work so that everybody has the same difficulty in getting there (that's why they re-did the districts and regions two years ago). What you're suggesting, of course, would turn that on its head.


Edited by SetonHallPirate, 20 February 2018 - 05:25 PM.

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#38 NJWC

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 09:07 AM

Private schools have a huge team advantage, but once the individual tourney starts, everyone is equal.
NJ has real state champs. 4-6 divisions? I’m weak states?
Crazy.
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#39 BobDole

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 02:04 AM

Private schools have a huge team advantage, but once the individual tourney starts, everyone is equal.
NJ has real state champs. 4-6 divisions? I’m weak states?
Crazy.

Everyone is not equal. Practice partners, coaching and number of coaches, better facilities, more one sport athletes, are amongst reasons why kids from bigger schools have more success.


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#40 cbg

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 12:10 AM

Tennessee:  199 teams offer high school wrestling for boys

3 divisions:  D1 A/AA for the smaller public schools, D1 AAA for the larger public schools and D2 for the private schools

The TSSAA (Tennessee Secondary School Athletic Association) host the state tournament for the 3 boys divisions plus the girls division at the Williamson County Agricultural Center.  This facility places a tarp over the manure and dirt before putting the mats on top of the tarp.  There are no shower facilities for the wrestlers or officials and the spectators are so far away from the action that it makes it difficult to see with the poor lighting in the arena.  The state association (TSSAA) is out of touch with reality and shows no desire to make any of the state championship events in Tennessee a premier event.  This is what you get when you appoint educators to operate a multi million dollar business and they don't have the training to operate the local lemonade stand.  Tennessee should move the state tournament to another facility and have one division for the boys.  Tennessee does not have enough schools offering wrestling to have two much less three divisions.


Edited by cbg, 24 February 2018 - 12:13 AM.





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