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Is your state doing it worse than VA?


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#41 NJWC

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 01:56 PM

Everyone is not equal. Practice partners, coaching and number of coaches, better facilities, more one sport athletes, are amongst reasons why kids from bigger schools have more success.

20-30 years ago, perhaps. Now, the elite kids all train at private clubs, often with their top competition.
You can be good from anywhere, if you have access to a good club.

#42 BobDole

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 02:11 PM

20-30 years ago, perhaps. Now, the elite kids all train at private clubs, often with their top competition.
You can be good from anywhere, if you have access to a good club.

IF.... kids from rural smaller schools are at a big disadvantage. 

 

New Jersey is densely populated and doesn't have the big difference in school enrollments like states that have more area.

 

There is more to the world than New Jersey.



#43 gimpeltf

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 02:31 PM

New Jersey is densely populated...

 

 

I grew up here and live here again (NJ).

I can tell you for a fact that NJ has the densest population!


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#44 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 04:00 PM

IF.... kids from rural smaller schools are at a big disadvantage. 

 

New Jersey is densely populated and doesn't have the big difference in school enrollments like states that have more area.

 

There is more to the world than New Jersey.

What about kids from smaller schools in major metropolitan areas (like a parochial school that doubles as a wrestling factory, for example)?


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#45 1032004

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 12:13 AM

I think you misunderstood...I'd be all for one-class. I just don't understand the having four-classes (for example) and then a "Meet of Champions", so to speak. Because I would highly doubt that the (in a four-class situation) "state champ" in 1A would feel like a state champ if they lost to the 4A "state champ" in the semifinals in that sort of scenario.

In short, if you're going to have feeders into that Meet of Champions, have the feeders based on geography, or at least something other than enrollment of the schools.

I disagree. Class state champs feeding into a “Meet of Champions” is the best of both worlds, IMO. The 1A guy can certainly still consider himself a state champ. People still want to put an asterisk next to class state champs anyway, so in that sense not having them wrestle at all is pretty much just as bad as if they wrestled and lost.

Obviously there’d be some details to work out. Would it be only champs? A certain number of qualifiers? IMO, if you really want it to be a “Tournament of Champions,” it should just be the winners, which would ideally be grouped into 4 classes.

Like several others here I went to HS in NJ. I don’t think they should change the format because that’s the way it’s been for so long. However I believe Cross Country still has a Meet of Champs. It’s a little different because the same Meet determines both the team and individual results (and I think wrestling team champs should be determined by duals), but I don’t think it takes anything away from the Group State Championships.

Edited by 1032004, 26 February 2018 - 12:15 AM.

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#46 BobDole

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 02:30 AM

What about kids from smaller schools in major metropolitan areas (like a parochial school that doubles as a wrestling factory, for example)?

That is an exception to the rule, plus when you talk a private or parochial school you are dealing with a whole different animal.



#47 BobDole

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 02:37 AM

I disagree. Class state champs feeding into a “Meet of Champions” is the best of both worlds, IMO. The 1A guy can certainly still consider himself a state champ. People still want to put an asterisk next to class state champs anyway, so in that sense not having them wrestle at all is pretty much just as bad as if they wrestled and lost.

How many states do a meet of champions?
How many have tried, but it failed miserably?
Who are the people who want to put an asterisk next to a state champ or placer's name?
 

Obviously there’d be some details to work out. Would it be only champs? A certain number of qualifiers? IMO, if you really want it to be a “Tournament of Champions,” it should just be the winners, which would ideally be grouped into 4 classes.
Like several others here I went to HS in NJ. I don’t think they should change the format because that’s the way it’s been for so long. However I believe Cross Country still has a Meet of Champs. It’s a little different because the same Meet determines both the team and individual results (and I think wrestling team champs should be determined by duals), but I don’t think it takes anything away from the Group State Championships.


The worst reason to keep something is because "that's the way we've always done it."

 

I'd like to see the statistics of state placers and champs are distributed by class size. 

 

Just for reference per a little research New Jersey schools with wrestling average 925 students, with a standard deviation of 468. That means most schools are between about 500-1300 students. If you compare Indiana has an average enrollment of wrestling schools of 966 with a standard deviation of 747. Both states have around 300 wrestling schools.



#48 1032004

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 03:16 AM

How many states do a meet of champions?
How many have tried, but it failed miserably?
Who are the people who want to put an asterisk next to a state champ or placer's name?
 


The worst reason to keep something is because "that's the way we've always done it."

 

I'd like to see the statistics of state placers and champs are distributed by class size. 

 

Just for reference per a little research New Jersey schools with wrestling average 925 students, with a standard deviation of 468. That means most schools are between about 500-1300 students. If you compare Indiana has an average enrollment of wrestling schools of 966 with a standard deviation of 747. Both states have around 300 wrestling schools.

 

I have no idea how many states have a Meet of Champions.   I think the New England situation is similar and that seems to work OK.  I mentioned how I thought it worked pretty well in NJ cross country.    If I remember correctly even in wrestling NJ used to do a Meet of Champions for Duals, but not sure when that stopped.

 

The asterisk was a figure of speech.  But it seems most in this thread do not consider a classification state champ a real state champ.

 

For your statistics, I'd be interested to see as well but you'd of course have to look only at states that only have 1 state championship.   You'd probably also have to exclude private schools and schools like Bound Brook that take in kids from out of the district.



#49 BobDole

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 03:52 AM

I have no idea how many states have a Meet of Champions.   I think the New England situation is similar and that seems to work OK.  I mentioned how I thought it worked pretty well in NJ cross country.    If I remember correctly even in wrestling NJ used to do a Meet of Champions for Duals, but not sure when that stopped.

 

The asterisk was a figure of speech.  But it seems most in this thread do not consider a classification state champ a real state champ.

 

For your statistics, I'd be interested to see as well but you'd of course have to look only at states that only have 1 state championship.   You'd probably also have to exclude private schools and schools like Bound Brook that take in kids from out of the district.

So basically what you are saying has no backing with physical evidence, just what you have heard or what may have gone on. I prefer hard evidence that no one recognizes classed champs. 

 

I have the statistics for Indiana.

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing



#50 RichB

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 05:12 AM

Good Table Senator. It would be interesting to see the same data for NJ and CALIF. (both tournaments are this weekend? Are there any other large states (say over 120 schools) or even over medium (say over 40) still with one class. Pa went to 2 classes 45 years ago. When did NY go to two classes? (about a dozen years ago?)



#51 BobDole

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 06:25 AM

New York is probably approaching 10 years of two classes

Texas just went to two classes less than 5 years ago I believe

 

Past them

Hawaii  1 class and 50-60 schools

Kentucky 1 class and about 75 schools

Delaware 1 class with about 40 schools

Vermont 1 class with about 22 schools

 

I tried getting California data and couldn't find school enrollments for ALL schools with wrestling. I would be interested in New Jersey's data especially since most of their schools are about the same size.



#52 1032004

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 06:33 AM

So basically what you are saying has no backing with physical evidence, just what you have heard or what may have gone on. I prefer hard evidence that no one recognizes classed champs. 

 

I have the statistics for Indiana.

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

 

I don't disagree with your data and never said I did.

 

I also didn't say "no one recognizes class state champs," but I think it's common knowledge that state champs from strong wrestling states with only 1 champ (such as CA, NJ and IN) are MORE recognized than state champs from most states with classes.

 

That's why I said I think a Meet of Champions would be the best of both worlds.   I see you said you thought 2-3 classes would be ideal.   If there's 2 classes, you could have a Meet of Champs by literally adding one more match.  I don't think that'd be too difficult.   Again, I don't know how many states have a Meet of Champions or how many have failed miserably.  Do you?


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#53 gimpeltf

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 06:51 AM

Pa did for a while.



#54 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 07:28 AM

New York is probably approaching 10 years of two classes

Texas just went to two classes less than 5 years ago I believe

 

Past them

Hawaii  1 class and 50-60 schools

Kentucky 1 class and about 75 schools

Delaware 1 class with about 40 schools

Vermont 1 class with about 22 schools

 

I tried getting California data and couldn't find school enrollments for ALL schools with wrestling. I would be interested in New Jersey's data especially since most of their schools are about the same size.

Here's a list of the schools that sponsored wrestling this year, sorted by "Group" (their classification for duals): http://www.njsiaa.or...cations '18.pdf

 

Obviously, I don't have the statistics on how the results of their state tournament went this year, given that, well, my crystal ball is at the shop.


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#55 BobDole

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 07:35 AM

I don't disagree with your data and never said I did.

 

I also didn't say "no one recognizes class state champs," but I think it's common knowledge that state champs from strong wrestling states with only 1 champ (such as CA, NJ and IN) are MORE recognized than state champs from most states with classes.

 

That's why I said I think a Meet of Champions would be the best of both worlds.   I see you said you thought 2-3 classes would be ideal.   If there's 2 classes, you could have a Meet of Champs by literally adding one more match.  I don't think that'd be too difficult.   Again, I don't know how many states have a Meet of Champions or how many have failed miserably.  Do you?

I would be curious as to what you mean by "more recognized" of your statement?

 

I put together New Jersey's data from this year(qualifiers only) and last year.

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

 

Interestingly their data is much more evened out by class. The biggest differences is that New Jersey crams 2.4 million more people into an area that is 4.5 times smaller than Indiana. On top of that a lot less REALLY big schools or REALLY small schools makes a big difference.

 
Indiana
Three Class Enrollment Breakdown
1A 0-506
2A 507-1056
3A 1057-5000
Two Class Enrollment Breakdown
1A 0-700
2A 701-5000
 
Average Enrollment 948
Standard Deviation 775
 
New Jersey
Three Class Enrollment Breakdown
1A 0-672
2A 673-993
3A 994-5000
Two Class Enrollment Breakdown
1A 0-848
2A 849-5000
 
Average Enrollment 923
Standard Deviation 533


#56 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 07:48 AM

 

I would be curious as to what you mean by "more recognized" of your statement?

 

I put together New Jersey's data from this year(qualifiers only) and last year.

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

 

Interestingly their data is much more evened out by class. The biggest differences is that New Jersey crams 2.4 million more people into an area that is 4.5 times smaller than Indiana. On top of that a lot less REALLY big schools or REALLY small schools makes a big difference.

 
Indiana
Three Class Enrollment Breakdown
1A 0-506
2A 507-1056
3A 1057-5000
Two Class Enrollment Breakdown
1A 0-700
2A 701-5000
 
Average Enrollment 948
Standard Deviation 775
 
New Jersey
Three Class Enrollment Breakdown
1A 0-672
2A 673-993
3A 994-5000
Two Class Enrollment Breakdown
1A 0-848
2A 849-5000
 
Average Enrollment 923
Standard Deviation 533

 

Just curious, where does Bergen Catholic fit in this system? A bit surprising to see 9 of the 14 champions in the small-school classification!

 

Also, and this is true for Indiana as well, I'd like to see how those numbers broke down if you split them to have equal enrollments in each class, rather than equal numbers of schools.


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#57 BobDole

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 07:59 AM

You can view the schools in the Teams tab.

Bergdon Catholic is in the middle with an enrollment of 980.



#58 BobDole

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 08:13 AM

 

Also, and this is true for Indiana as well, I'd like to see how those numbers broke down if you split them to have equal enrollments in each class, rather than equal numbers of schools.

For Indiana

2 Class
Schools
1A- 242
2A- 70
 
Qualifiers
1A- 53%
2A- 47%
 
Placers
1A- 49%
2A- 51%
 
Champs
1A- 49%
2A- 51%
 
3 Class
Schools
1A- 199
2A- 74
3A- 39
 
Qualifiers
1A- 34%
2A- 33%
3A- 32% 
 
Placers
1A- 28.7%
2A- 35.5%
3A- 35.8%
 
Champs
1A- 28.5%
2A- 29.5%
3A- 42%

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#59 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 11:48 AM

You can view the schools in the Teams tab.

Bergdon Catholic is in the middle with an enrollment of 980.

Gotcha...hadn't seen that...and further, didn't realize that Bergen Catholic didn't have a single state champ last year!


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#60 1032004

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 02:11 PM

Just curious, where does Bergen Catholic fit in this system? A bit surprising to see 9 of the 14 champions in the small-school classification!

Also, and this is true for Indiana as well, I'd like to see how those numbers broke down if you split them to have equal enrollments in each class, rather than equal numbers of schools.


3 of the 9 were from previously mentioned Bound Brook.

2 more were from the all-male private school Delbarton which only has a tuition of $38K.

Of course, excluding schools like those is helping prove BobDole’s point.

Edited by 1032004, 26 February 2018 - 02:12 PM.





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