Is your state doing it worse than VA?

[SetonHallPirate 993]

I don't know what your definition of successful is, but MA has been running an All-State tournament for over 20 years.  It's taken seriously and doesn't devalue the divisional state championships.

 

NH and CT also have similar events.

And all three of those states have their open state championships (all-state championships, etc.) feed into the New England Championships.

[BobDole 1,231]

I don't know what your definition of successful is, but MA has been running an All-State tournament for over 20 years.  It's taken seriously and doesn't devalue the divisional state championships.

 

NH and CT also have similar events.

The New England system is very intriguing and I only know the basics of it and how it works.

Is there any participation drop off between a state championship and New England championship? For instance do some champs/placers that are invited not go?

Same goes for the Massachusetts All-State, does everyone participate?

 

From my limited experience it would seem that most people in the New England states feel that their state tournament is basically a regional where you qualify for the NE championship.

[FloggingSully 29]

The New England system is very intriguing and I only know the basics of it and how it works.

Is there any participation drop off between a state championship and New England championship? For instance do some champs/placers that are invited not go?

Same goes for the Massachusetts All-State, does everyone participate?

 

From my limited experience it would seem that most people in the New England states feel that their state tournament is basically a regional where you qualify for the NE championship.

 

I don't follow HS wrestling very closely any more so some of my numbers might be a little off.  In MA there are 3 divisions (big, medium, and small schools), each has their own separate state tournament.  The following weekend the top 4 placers from each of those tournaments compete at the all-states, there is probably the occasional kid who's too banged up after states or who get's hurt between states and all-states but I've never heard of anyone just deciding not to go to all-states.

 

The top 6 (at least top 6 back in the day, might be a different number now) from MA all-states qualify for new-englands.  Different states send different numbers of wrestlers.  Teams scores are kept at New Englands by high school, I don't think there is an official score by state.  All-states didn't keep official team scores for a while but have added it someone since I graduated.

[TobusRex 2,108]

Tobus, after cutting the state tournament to one day and no double elimination in 2015, they further split it into six public classes and took four of the six state tournaments to high school gyms.

 

It’s not the best they can do, it’s the best they want to do. It’s bad.

 

This probably sums it up.

 

 

I don’t like to speak in hyperbole, but i’ve been watching /covering the tournament since 1996 and this is the worst it’s ever been.

 

They turned people away from two venues and two places also were unable to stream the event live because the VHSL failed to put the events in places that would allow live streaming. There are countless issues from four of the six tournaments. The kids deserve better.

 

To be fair: if you finished 5th or 6th you don't belong on a podium anyway. That is pretty ghetto, though.

[SetonHallPirate 993]

I don't follow HS wrestling very closely any more so some of my numbers might be a little off.  In MA there are 3 divisions (big, medium, and small schools), each has their own separate state tournament.  The following weekend the top 4 placers from each of those tournaments compete at the all-states, there is probably the occasional kid who's too banged up after states or who get's hurt between states and all-states but I've never heard of anyone just deciding not to go to all-states.

 

The top 6 (at least top 6 back in the day, might be a different number now) from MA all-states qualify for new-englands.  Different states send different numbers of wrestlers.  Teams scores are kept at New Englands by high school, I don't think there is an official score by state.  All-states didn't keep official team scores for a while but have added it someone since I graduated.

They boosted it to 7 this year, to make a 24-man bracket. Top seven from MA, top five from CT (up from four last year), and top three from the other four states.

[leshismore 216]

Ohh yes a reality check, thanks a bunch.

 

Show me the statistics where "many kids from small schools placed." Stating it does not make it a fact. Show me that the small schools had equal the number of placers and champs as the big schools and then I'll be in for a reality check.

 

It's funny that you say "many kids from small schools placed," yet the small school coaches were the ones to blame for the change. So while many(in your mind) did well, the small school coaches still weren't happy and wanted more. 

Sorry, I don't jump to do research for you.  I am busy enough doing that in my day-to-day. 

 

I know NY has had many small school state placers and champs for having been involved with it for over 40 years.  If you don't think so, do the research yourself. Here... it is not that hard. http://armdrag.com/archives/

 

And to your point about small school coaches.  Yes, many kids placed and won titles.  Some didn't win, so their insecure coaches lobbied to get the state to change to 2 divisions.  I am not sure why that concept is so difficult for you to understand.

 

The change was actually perpetrated by a select few of small school coaches who literally couldn't deal with the fact that they never had a state champ.

[BobDole 1,231]

Sorry, I don't jump to do research for you.  I am busy enough doing that in my day-to-day. 

 

I know NY has had many small school state placers and champs for having been involved with it for over 40 years.  If you don't think so, do the research yourself. Here... it is not that hard. http://armdrag.com/archives/

 

And to your point about small school coaches.  Yes, many kids placed and won titles.  Some didn't win, so their insecure coaches lobbied to get the state to change to 2 divisions.  I am not sure why that concept is so difficult for you to understand.

 

The change was actually perpetrated by a select few of small school coaches who literally couldn't deal with the fact that they never had a state champ.

Again prove it, don't just say it. 

 

Many doesn't do it for me. Many could be 10% or it could be 70%. I like hard facts instead of someone spewing fake numbers. 

 

So even though MANY won titles, MANY more complained and got it changed. This MANY word is quite interesting. So MANY of these coaches at small schools were having so much success that they got addicted to it and MANY of them joined up so they could win MANY more titles.

[leshismore 216]

Again prove it, don't just say it. 

 

Many doesn't do it for me. Many could be 10% or it could be 70%. I like hard facts instead of someone spewing fake numbers. 

 

So even though MANY won titles, MANY more complained and got it changed. This MANY word is quite interesting. So MANY of these coaches at small schools were having so much success that they got addicted to it and MANY of them joined up so they could win MANY more titles.

Are you always trying to order people around?  That comes off as quite insecure. 

 

Frankly, I really don't care what "doesn't do it for" you.

 

Check for yourself. You have the link.  Any woody boy... it was a "few" lobbyist, not many.

 

But really, you seem like no amount of facts will ever persuade you about anything.  Quit being so emotional.

 

Enjoy the watered down class systems around the country. 

 

I, on the other hand, am going to the NE this weekend, to see how "many" states rationally worked together to actually have a champion of champions.  And you know what, they are all successful.

[BobDole 1,231]

Are you always trying to order people around?  That comes off as quite insecure. 

 

Frankly, I really don't care what "doesn't do it for" you.

 

Check for yourself. You have the link.  Any woody boy... it was a "few" lobbyist, not many.

 

But really, you seem like no amount of facts will ever persuade you about anything.  Quit being so emotional.

 

Enjoy the watered down class systems around the country. 

 

I, on the other hand, am going to the NE this weekend, to see how "many" states rationally worked together to actually have a champion of champions.  And you know what, they are all successful.

Your link doesn't have school enrollments, sorry I don't know New York that well. 

 

If you want to prove you are right then do it. Numbers will change my mind. New Jersey doesn't have a big discrepancy of qualifiers and placers between school sizes. New York might be the same, but I'm not taking your opinion that it was "many."

 

Funny you call me emotional and then you go right into an emotional argument...good times.

 

The kids and coaches know that a New England placement or championship is much better received than a Connecticut or Massachusetts state title. That is why it works and has been working. 

[davenowa 22]

the question was asked about qualifiers for a "tournament of champions" opting out (following a divisional state championship, based on school size).  In CT, with 4 enrollment based divisions, the top 6 place-winners from the state championship (by enrollment) advance to the State Open, creating a 24-man bracket (top 2 from each class have byes in round of 32).  As with any event, there are some injury and illness scratches.  In 2018, of the 336 qualifiers, there were 19 scratches (some weights had none, others had 2-3...most were 5th/6th from divisionals, but there were a couple of div finalists), slightly more than normal...but the flu has resulted in more kids out this year.  For the NE Tournament, also a 24-man bracket, there are usually even fewer scratches.  This year, CT has had 2 of their 70 qualifiers scratch, while last year, the NE Tourney saw 11 total scratches (out of 336 entries).  Of those, most were early in the week and were able to be replaced by the next highest finisher from that state.

 

separately, regarding the percentage of "toc" champs coming from small schools, in the CT format (with 100 schools split into 4 divisions by enrollment), the larger schools do typically dominate the top of the podium at the "toc", with the smallest schools averaging 2 champs (some years 1, others as many as 4-5, for while those small teams do have individuals who can reach the top, few have the depth to compete for the team title).  This year, 1 small champ and 3 medium school champs (1 from a "one man team" school). 

[NJwrestlingguy 106]

whats going on in Virginia is sad. So many tough wrestlers/great coaches being disrespected. Yes i'm bias but having a State Championship with 1 Class is on such a different level for the fan and atmosphere. Having the State Tournament on The Most Famous Boardwalk in USA is amazing and NJ has it right. I've never been to California State Tournament but that must be incredible also. If your not in a State with 1 class your not a STATE CHAMP, Your a Sectional/Class/Division Champ. Just like football in NJ.

 

http://highschoolsports.nj.com/news/article/-5057959992998650252/2018-njsiaa-wrestling-championships-in-atlantic-city-full-schedule/t 

Edited February 28, 2018 by NJwrestlingguy

[BobDole 1,231]

whats going on in Virginia is sad. So many tough wrestlers/great coaches being disrespected. Yes i'm bias but having a State Championship with 1 Class is on such a different level for the fan and atmosphere. Having the State Tournament on The Most Famous Boardwalk in USA is amazing and NJ has it right. I've never been to California State Tournament but that must be incredible also. If your not in a State with 1 class your not a STATE CHAMP, Your a Sectional/Class/Division Champ. Just like football in NJ.

 

http://highschoolsports.nj.com/news/article/-5057959992998650252/2018-njsiaa-wrestling-championships-in-atlantic-city-full-schedule/t 

So many kids these days calling themselves state champions when they are not. Such a sad world we live in.

 

California is so great the stands....are empty. Lots of open spots to see that one true champion.

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by BobDole

[leshismore 216]

whats going on in Virginia is sad. So many tough wrestlers/great coaches being disrespected. Yes i'm bias but having a State Championship with 1 Class is on such a different level for the fan and atmosphere. Having the State Tournament on The Most Famous Boardwalk in USA is amazing and NJ has it right. I've never been to California State Tournament but that must be incredible also. If your not in a State with 1 class your not a STATE CHAMP, Your a Sectional/Class/Division Champ. Just like football in NJ.

 

http://highschoolsports.nj.com/news/article/-5057959992998650252/2018-njsiaa-wrestling-championships-in-atlantic-city-full-schedule/t 

Thank you for stating it so well.  Greatly appreciated. NJ will be amazing this week.

[Aztec 20]

So many kids these days calling themselves state champions when they are not. Such a sad world we live in.

 

California is so great the stands....are empty. Lots of open spots to see that one true champion.

 

 

California has roughly 800 high schools with wrestling programs, divided up into 10 geographic sections ranging in size from under 10 schools (Oakland Section) to ~300 schools (Southern Section). The 10 sections qualify between 1 and 10 guys for the state tournament. There are 40 qualifiers per weight class. The state tournament has been held in Bakersfield since the early 2000's. 

 

The California state tournament is fantastic. Have you ever attended it? I've attended it every year for over a decade. Would it be better if every seat was filled? Of course. But the attendance is, in my opinion, a reflection of geography.

 

Let's compare California to Ohio, for example. 

 

Size of California relative to Ohio:

 

 

150 mile radius around Columbus:

 

 

150 mile radius around Bakersfield:

 

 

Ohio has roughly 500 schools with high school wrestling. Columbus is reachable by virtually the entire state of Ohio within about a 2 hour drive. Within a 2 hour drive of Bakersfield, you have maybe half as many schools as Ohio has within 2 hours of Columbus. With the far distances involved for so many programs, unless a team has a qualifier at the state meet, it can be difficult to get there. I am fortunate to live about 2 hours from Bakersfield (if I time traffic right) and the flexibility to take Friday off work to attend. With the relatively short distance, I can drive up Friday morning, get a hotel room for a night, and drive home after the finals on Saturday and be home by midnight (I often do this). For all the people that live 4 or more hours away (everyone in the Bay Area, Sacramento, and San Diego), they can't do that near as easily. At that distance, they are pretty much forced to get a hotel Thursday night and Saturday night. For some people, the cost of 3 nights in a hotel is no big deal, but for a lot of people it is. 

 

If California moved to divisions like some people want (I don't) and expanded the state meet to three 32-man brackets (or something similar) and held them all at the same location, there would be more people at the state meet because they expanded the qualifiers. More kids, parents, coaches, grandparents would make the trip regardless of distance to be there for their kid. If filling every seat in Bakersfield is the goal, adding more qualifiers would help make that happen. But I hope they never do it. The California state meet is great the way it is. I lived in Arizona for 13 years prior to California and far prefer the 1 division here to Arizona's multiple divisions. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Aztec

[BobDole 1,231]

But it's a one class system, which is by far superior, thus the stands should be packed if it is superior. People on Yappi are trying to get tickets to see a crappy three class system in Ohio. How can that be?

[GuillermoBilletas 149]

Sorry to give you a reality check.... Plenty of small schools, especially, in NY have had success.  What I don't like is for insecure coaches, who want to have a "State Title", lobby the system, to create a framework, so it appears that they have a state champ.

Many kids from small schools have placed and won NY championships.  Sorry, the facts get in the way of your notion of success.

And if a kid takes 3rd or 5th in the state with one class, but would win in a state with multiple classes.... are you telling us that the wrestler is not a "success"? 

Splitting into divisions creates a perpetual "what if" scenario while also robbing fans of great matches. 

internet tough guys calling lifelong coaches "insecure"

[Aztec 20]

But it's a one class system, which is by far superior, thus the stands should be packed if it is superior. People on Yappi are trying to get tickets to see a crappy three class system in Ohio. How can that be?

 

 

I do prefer the one class system, but regardless of how many divisions there are, attendance at the state meet is dependent upon many factors. Frankly, I don't think the number of divisions is a very big factor for attendance at a high school state meet. I haven't claimed otherwise.

 

Geography plays a big role in a big state like California. Do you agree?

 

The depth of wrestling culture in a state also plays a big role. California has a very large population, but it does not have as deep as a wrestling culture as states in the "wrestling belt."

 

The number of wrestlers at the state tournament is a big factor. 

 

These considerations are far more important than the number of divisions. 

 

Going back to California vs. Ohio...

 

In Ohio the state meet has 48 wrestlers per weight (three 16-man brackets) in a state with a deep wrestling culture where virtually everyone lives within a 2 hour drive of Columbus. 

 

California has 40 wrestlers per weight in a state with not near as deep a wrestling culture where the vast majority live farther than 2 hours (often much farther) from Bakersfield. 

 

The people in California that support multiple divisions often point to state meets like Ohio and say "Look at their state meet. If we had divisions, we could do that too." It's asking too much of divisions to expect them to compensate for the geographic differences and differences in wrestling culture. California and Ohio are apples and oranges when you consider the larger factors. The numbers of divisions isn't one of them. If California had a 64-man bracket with 1 division or two 32-man brackets with 2 divisions, I bet attendance at the state meet would be essentially the same. If Ohio had a single division with a 48-man bracket instead of three 16-man brackets, I bet their attendance would be essentially the same as well. 

[TripNSweep 795]

I just wanted to chime in again.  In our state we hold state at Prescott Valley, which is about an hour and a half away from the Phoenix metro area, which has about 4.5 million people in it.  

 

 

Now I have nothing against the place it's held, it's a great facility.  The location is a pain in the ass.  It's a very long drive for a majority of the state, all but 3 or 4 high schools are within about 20-30 minutes driving.  It's not suited for large scale events like this.  Finding hotel rooms is a pain in the ass, there's a large hotel close by but it's also a casino too.  And room rates are pretty high up there.  I didn't attend this year, but I've been the last few years and attendance is just way down.  Schools aren't nearby for other students to drive up and cheer them on.  When it was held at the Veteran's Memorial Coliseum, there were a lot more people there.  It sounds like CA has a problem with it being held in Bakersfield, but imagine if state were held in someplace like Placerville.  That's kind of the problem we have.  I actually went to the guy in charge of this stuff with the AIA, and he basically told me he had some kind of altercation or disagreement with an usher at the coliseum so they moved state.  Then when it got moved they moved it to the Glendale Arena or whatever it's called now and then to ASU at Wells Fargo Arena, but the problem at Glendale was that it was too expensive to rent for the tournament, and ASU had some other issue.  So they moved it to Prescott Valley, which is far away from all but 3 or 4 schools, who all have to get hotels, and spend part of a day to travel there.  The guys from places like Yuma have it tough because that's a 6 hour drive to a remote, desolate and cold place.  At least if it was in Phoenix it would only be about a 4 hour drive and they would still be in a city.  If they moved it back to Phoenix they would have more people attending.  But apparently the AIA gets the facility for free or nearly free, so that is easier for them.  So attendance will keep dwindling, which is a shame because in our Division 3, we had a really exciting team race.  Show Low got a state championship win at 195 that put them into the lead by 2 points, then at 220 lbs Walden Grove had a kid win for 5th place that put them ahead of Show Low by 1.5 points, then Yuma's heavyweight upset the #1 seed with a pin in the championship finals to propel Yuma to a team championship by .5 points over Walden Grove.  

[gimpeltf 2,085]

I just wanted to chime in again.  In our state we hold state at Prescott Valley, which is about an hour and a half away from the Phoenix metro area, which has about 4.5 million people in it.  

 

But more importantly, where do you hold States?

[Aztec 20]

It sounds like CA has a problem with it being held in Bakersfield, 

 

 

Some people in California complain about the state tournament being held in Bakersfield, but I'm not one of them. All things considered, I think Bakersfield works really well. 

[BobDole 1,231]

It's a very long drive for a majority of the state, all but 3 or 4 high schools are within about 20-30 minutes driving.  

 

Looking at other state tournaments, I'd guess there are very few schools within a 20-30 minute driving distance. Considering most are in bigger metropolitan areas there aren't many high schools in downtown Columbus, Indianapolis, Detroit, etc. Illinois holds their state tournament in Champaign, way out of the way from Chicago where most the people live.

 

In California you have about the whole state population of Indiana within about 100 miles of the arena. You'd think the almighty single class system would be able to draw in millions of fans just like it does in Indiana. 

[RichB 227]

Looks like Arizona decided near the Geographic Center makes sense, but near the population center makes more sense.

 

Some people in Pennsylvania want state championships to be held near the geographic center in State College, but most are held in Hershey, 15 miles east of Harrisburg., The Population center is probably 15 miles farther East. Of course, it helps that Hershey Resorts and Entertainment (HERCO)  owns the Giant Center (Wrestling, Basketball, Cheer--~18-20 sessions) and Hersheypark Stadium (Football - Soccer ~14 sessions), and also owns many of the Hotels, so no charge to PIAA.  

[TobusRex 2,108]

When I was wrestling HS we had our state tournaments in Lloyd Noble Center, in Norman (OU's campus). It seemed cavernous at the time. We had 4 classes (A,2A,3A,4A), and I bet the auditorium was never more than 1/3 full. 

[TripNSweep 795]

Looks like Arizona decided near the Geographic Center makes sense, but near the population center makes more sense.

 

Some people in Pennsylvania want state championships to be held near the geographic center in State College, but most are held in Hershey, 15 miles east of Harrisburg., The Population center is probably 15 miles farther East. Of course, it helps that Hershey Resorts and Entertainment (HERCO)  owns the Giant Center (Wrestling, Basketball, Cheer--~18-20 sessions) and Hersheypark Stadium (Football - Soccer ~14 sessions), and also owns many of the Hotels, so no charge to PIAA.  

 

It's more annoying than anything.  It also doesn't help that it begins on a Thursday and ends Saturday, so for whichever divisions begin on Thursday and have the finals on Friday, it takes away from people who are more casual fans, like students from going to watch, because by the time their friend might be out, they have no reason to go watch anymore.  They certainly aren't going to drive for almost 2 hours for that either.  If it were held closer by, making the drive to Phoenix is much more feasible for most people.  I went to the state tournament after I'd graduated and there were a lot of people going who were just friends of friends of people who were wrestling in the early rounds.  Because of the time invested, a 4 hour+ round trip car ride, there's fewer people who attend.  The Prescott Valley Event Center is at best half full, so there's only MAYBE 1500 people there for wrestling at any given time.  Maybe when the sessions overlap there's more.  The venue itself is great, but there are many more adequate places to hold this than an arena 2 hours away from where most people live that only benefits a few people who happen to live nearby or are able to save a few bucks by holding it there.  Here are two suitable replacements.

 

Veteran's Memorial

 

 

 

 

GCU Arena

[TobusRex 2,108]

GCU arena looks small, but awesome. Would be a great intimate site for a very loud dual!