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You guys ready for Yianni to be a true freshman NCAA champ?

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I’m all for Cornell having a great wrestling team. I don’t like that they are redshirting their athletes. Going to the OTC is different because they aren’t training with the coaches/team/right on campus. You can’t be in an athletic league that bars redshirts and then take your athletes and have them defer a year while training with you. That is actually worse than a redshirt because they aren’t accruing college credits in the process.

 

And Gantry, if Princeton is doing the same thing it is even worse. At least Cornell isn’t really a traditional Ivy in that part of the school is a state school...Princeton is supposed to be one of the top three. Then again, we all know the influence that one particular generous alumnus has on the university-so it wouldn’t surprise me.

Anyone at any school can take a year off or even defer a year after high school. The only arguable aspect of what you are getting at in the spirit (not any particular rule) is to be in the institution for 4 years and done. You will notice Cornell, Penn somewhat concurrently, and others such as Princeton that is mentioned, as consistently dragging the experience out a little longer. I can't speak for other Ivies (or even Cornell for that matter), but Koll once said he can't extend the college experience for any reason other than academic. So you will see guys disappearing for a semester or two to do internships, etc, or even change majors requiring additional time (nothing unusual about that too). Cornell cannot extend the experience for athletic reasons, and don't no matter how our interpretation of what is happening is on a message board. In the case of Vito vs Yianni, one took a year off and the other didn't. One was ready to wrestle with men and the other will be ready to do so next year, is my best guess.

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Deprived a year of their education? What?

 

 

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Redshirts are in class during the redshirt year. If the Cornell redshirts aren’t, that’s a critical year of development that is not happening. Coon is leaving Michigan with a masters degree-you lose that opportunity with the pseudo redshirt. Edited by Billyhoyle

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Anyone at any school can take a year off or even defer a year after high school. The only arguable aspect of what you are getting at in the spirit (not any particular rule) is to be in the institution for 4 years and done. You will notice Cornell, Penn somewhat concurrently, and others such as Princeton that is mentioned, as consistently dragging the experience out a little longer. I can't speak for other Ivies (or even Cornell for that matter), but Koll once said he can't extend the college experience for any reason other than academic. So you will see guys disappearing for a semester or two to do internships, etc, or even change majors requiring additional time (nothing unusual about that too). Cornell cannot extend the experience for athletic reasons, and don't no matter how our interpretation of what is happening is on a message board. In the case of Vito vs Yianni, one took a year off and the other didn't. One was ready to wrestle with men and the other will be ready to do so next year, is my best guess.

If an athlete wants to travel the world, or train at the OTC, or go on a Mormon mission, and then enroll at Cornell-that’s following the rule. If he’s training in Ithaca with the Cornell coaches and team, that’s a redshirt.

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If an athlete wants to travel the world, or train at the OTC, or go on a Mormon mission, and then enroll at Cornell-that’s following the rule. If he’s training in Ithaca with the Cornell coaches and team, that’s a redshirt.

Last comment to you:  they cannot train with the Cornell coaches and team during collegiate wrestling season.

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Redshirts are in class during the redshirt year. If the Cornell redshirts aren’t, that’s a critical year of development that is not happening. Coon is leaving Michigan with a masters degree-you lose that opportunity with the pseudo redshirt.

So if you go to Cornell, you cannot get a masters?

 

 

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So if you go to Cornell, you cannot get a masters?

 

 

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That is not what I said. A wrestler that redshirts in a school where that is allowable (School A) has the opportunity to continue to take classes and further his academic progress while redshirting.  A wrestler that redshirts at Cornell is only there to wrestle if what a poster on this board claims is true and they are not taking classes at the local community college.  When each wrestler starts his redshirt freshman year, the wrestler at School A is now further along academically than the wrestler at Cornell.  

 

Given the situation described above, by having their athletes redshirt, Cornell is slowing their academic progress.  This is antithetical to the entire purpose and existence of the Ivy League.  

 

The Ag school stuff brought up by another poster is a discussion for another time..And it's a qualm that I have with the administrations throughout the entire Ivy League, as it is not just Cornell that games the system to enable some extraordinarily under qualified athletes to enroll. Wrestling also isn't the worst offending sport in this regard. The on site redshirts that Cornell encourages is unique to wrestling and unique to Cornell (unless Princeton is now encouraging this as well). 

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And it's a qualm that I have with the administrations throughout the entire Ivy League, as it is not just Cornell that games the system to enable some extraordinarily under qualified athletes to enroll. Wrestling also isn't the worst offending sport in this regard. 

Now you are just being an ass.  There is not a single wrestler at Cornell (or likely any other Ivy League school) that is not academically qualified to be there.  Period.

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Billy is basically saying you should not be able to defer admission to an Ivy School in order to pursue a passion within a 50 mile radius of the school you are defering. I’m sure he would not discriminate against just wrestlers.

 

And I’m pretty sure classes are taken, just not at the full time level. Also, if you go to cornell undergrad, you can still get a masters degree there. If you get your undergrad early you may be able to do that and still be on a sports team there. Not sure. Otherwise it is 4 and done, like it should be at all schools.

 

This crap that OTC is fine but RTC is not is hypocrisy at its finest.

Edited by nom

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So it's OK to train at the OTC, where world and Olympic champs train. That's not against the spirit of redshirting. But it's not OK to train at a local club just because it's affiliated with the school. Makes perfect sense!

Ohio State, Iowa, and PSU are in the Big 10, which allows redshirts. Cornell is an Ivy, so they don’t. They’re stashing redshirts in a community college when they should be enjoying the benefits of a world class education. I have no issue with the enrolled students training with the flwc Edited by Billyhoyle

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Billy Hoyle is very confused about the reason why the Ivies don't allow redshirts.  Redshirts are not allowed because if athletes were permitted a 5th year in school, it would be tantamount to providing them with another year of financial aid that is not available to non-athletes.  However, deferred admission, or taking a leave of absence, is a path available to ALL students, and so acceptable under Ivy League rules.

The Ivies are not against their athletes being competitive.  The Ivies simply require that athletes don't get special financial benefits through the University that is not available to all students.

I hope this helps Billy in his path to enlightenment.

Edited by redblades

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I was unaware ivy didn’t allow redshirts. Interesting

I don't know how this applies at all of the Ivies, but specifically at Cornell - ALL students are required to graduate in the number of years in school required per their degree program (typically 4, in some programs, 5) however - a student can take a leave of absence or gap year.  In other words, the time span can be extended, but only if the student is not in school during the extended time.  This applies to all students, not just athletes.  I expect the other Ivies have similar policies, but I don't know that for certain.

 

I was in a 5 year program, and it was very common for students to take a leave of absence between 2nd and 3rd, or 3rd and 4th years.

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Billy Hoyle is very confused about the reason why the Ivies don't allow redshirts.  Redshirts are not allowed because if athletes were permitted a 5th year in school, it would be tantamount to providing them with another year of financial aid that is not available to non-athletes.  However, deferred admission, or taking a leave of absence, is a path available to ALL students, and so acceptable under Ivy League rules.

 

The Ivies are not against their athletes being competitive.  The Ivies simply require that athletes don't get special financial benefits through the University that is not available to all students.

 

I hope this helps Billy in his path to enlightenment.

It has nothing to do with financial aid. Not sure where you got that idea or if you just made it up (do you have a source?). It is obviously about emphasizing academics over athletics.  If it were just about financial aid, they could say you get 5 years of competition but only 4 years of financial aid. 

 

Here's a quote from Harvard's AD, Bob Scalise:

 

The Ivy League, representing itself as a bastion of amateurism, has largely avoided this trend. The long and short of it, Scalise says, is that Harvard and the other Ivies want their athletes to have the same college experience as every other student—and that means not extending their stay on campus for athletic reasons. “While winning is great—and we all like to win—we are really educators,” he says. “If you measured success solely by winning, maybe you are missing out on something [by not redshirting], but that’s not what we are all about.”

 

source: http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2014/11/20/playing-with-the-rules/

 

And as I said, I don't have a problem with a student taking a gap year.  I have a problem with Koll having a satellite campus next door that he uses to blatantly disregard the redshirt rules.  A poster here literally said it has to do with whether an athlete is ready or not to compete...Why not just make the argument that the ivy league redshirt rule is a bad rule?  At least I could see some merit to that discussion.  With this, you are telling me that a redshirt is not actually a redshirt, when it clearly is, as the only differences between the cornell shirt and redshirt are worse for the students academically.  

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It has nothing to do with financial aid. Not sure where you got that idea or if you just made it up (do you have a source?). It is obviously about emphasizing academics over athletics.  If it were just about financial aid, they could say you get 5 years of competition but only 4 years of financial aid. 

 

Here's a quote from Harvard's AD, Bob Scalise:

 

The Ivy League, representing itself as a bastion of amateurism, has largely avoided this trend. The long and short of it, Scalise says, is that Harvard and the other Ivies want their athletes to have the same college experience as every other student—and that means not extending their stay on campus for athletic reasons. “While winning is great—and we all like to win—we are really educators,” he says. “If you measured success solely by winning, maybe you are missing out on something [by not redshirting], but that’s not what we are all about.”

 

source: http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2014/11/20/playing-with-the-rules/

 

And as I said, I don't have a problem with a student taking a gap year.  I have a problem with Koll having a satellite campus next door that he uses to blatantly disregard the redshirt rules.  A poster here literally said it has to do with whether an athlete is ready or not to compete...Why not just make the argument that the ivy league redshirt rule is a bad rule?  At least I could see some merit to that discussion.  With this, you are telling me that a redshirt is not actually a redshirt, when it clearly is, as the only differences between the cornell shirt and redshirt are worse for the students academically.

 

Koll works with what he has. I don’t know what you’re arguing about. Everything Cornell is going is well within the rules and spirit of the Ivy League. Kids do well on the mat, do well with their school, and go in to have happy lives. The kids themselves act on the advice of those around them to make their own decisions along that path.

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How good will Arujau be next year? 

Who knows?  This year, he won the Brockport Open, the Mat Town Open, and the Cleveland State Open.  He came in 2nd at the Bearcat Open, beating Cornell's Chaz Tucker (who beat DeSanto and took 2nd at the EIWAs).  At the Cleveland Open, he beat Micky Phillippi (RS) of Pitt, who is pretty good.

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Billy is basically saying you should not be able to defer admission to an Ivy School in order to pursue a passion within a 50 mile radius of the school you are defering. I’m sure he would not discriminate against just wrestlers.

 

And I’m pretty sure classes are taken, just not at the full time level. Also, if you go to cornell undergrad, you can still get a masters degree there. If you get your undergrad early you may be able to do that and still be on a sports team there. Not sure. Otherwise it is 4 and done, like it should be at all schools.

 

This crap that OTC is fine but RTC is not is hypocrisy at its finest.

You are mistaken on one point - If you complete your under graduate degree at an Ivy school you are no longer allowed to compete in sports.  This is an Ivy league rule and many times kids who have taken a gap year will manage their courses so they can start taking classes that can used for a masters degree but still have some required courses outstanding for their undergrad degree.  There have been a few guys that graduated from Ivys and completed their wrestling at other schools 

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Biily has a bone to pick with Cornell. But his arguments make no sense. There is no single Ivy experience. The whole point of an Ivy is they provide the best resources for each student to pick their path.... ANY path. Anyway, Cornell's most successful wrestlers, such as Dake, Travis Lee, and Yianni, didn't greyshirt, so it's not like the alternative path of going straight through isn't allowed.... And it's not like Harvard hasn't had people defer a year for athletic reasons. Happens quite a lot actually (maybe not in wrestling because they suck at it, but certainly in other sports).

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Biily has a bone to pick with Cornell. But his arguments make no sense. There is no single Ivy experience. The whole point of an Ivy is they provide the best resources for each student to pick their path.... ANY path. Anyway, Cornell's most successful wrestlers, such as Dake, Travis Lee, and Yianni, didn't greyshirt, so it's not like the alternative path of going straight through isn't allowed.... And it's not like Harvard hasn't had people defer a year for athletic reasons. Happens quite a lot actually (maybe not in wrestling because they suck at it, but certainly in other sports).

I have no bone to pick with Cornell. I think they are some of the technically best wrestlers in the sport and all wrestle a really awesome/exciting style.  Yanni will be really fun to watch for the next three years. I just admire that the ivy league supposedly places academics before athletics..It is unique in that regard.  Seeing Cornell blatantly disregard the redshirt rule therefore bothers me, as do the other instances where various schools attempt to get around academic standards. As I have said many times, I do not have a problem with athletes deferring admission. I do have a problem with a coach setting up a redshirt program so athletes can practice/train essentially on campus while not attending classes.

 

If you want to go after Harvard, do it for the lax admission standards they have for basketball/football/lacrosse. You would find no disagreement from me there. I could go on about that, but it's a discussion for another day.  Just know that i don't have a specific problem Cornell (other than the winter climate and hills). I actually really respect certain things about the place. Can't I criticize the aspects of it that I don't like, though?

 

If the point of the Ivy league is to let any student pick his/her path, why not just allow redshirts then if a student chooses to do so? Lobby to have the rule changed.  Don't just disregard it.

 

Who knows?  This year, he won the Brockport Open, the Mat Town Open, and the Cleveland State Open.  He came in 2nd at the Bearcat Open, beating Cornell's Chaz Tucker (who beat DeSanto and took 2nd at the EIWAs).  At the Cleveland Open, he beat Micky Phillippi (RS) of Pitt, who is pretty good.

Since he isn't allowed to practice with the team or coaches during his redshirt, who does he practice with that allows him to compete at these opens? I'm excited to see him compete next year.  He has a very exciting style, and think him vs Nick Lee will be a barnburner.  I'd be surprised if he doesn't AA.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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