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Best team... tournament vs duals

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I always enjoy watching the NCAAs and I enjoy watching quality dual meets. To me there is excitement in both. I do not wanna beat a dead horse because this debate has been going on for years but more so the last year following debate to make the winner of the National Duals the NCAA Team Champions for the same year. What I find interesting is that if you look at the last 20 years only, the winner of the NCAAs was almost without exception considered to be the BEST team in the nation. There has been general acceptance as there has been virtually no debate after the NCAAs that the winning team got "lucky". Just recently in the last 2 years IMHO if you took a poll of fans of non top 5 teams, LOL, my guess is that it would show almost a unanimous agreement that Penn State is the most dominant and best wrestling team in the country...yet they dropped a dual to minnesota last year and a dual to Iowa this year. Would any unbiased wrestling coach or fan today say that Minnesota or Iowa are a more dominant team than PSU?? I seriously doubt that. There a lot more luck in winning a dual meet than there is in winning the NCAAs. I personally like the National Duals(not in its current format). But I believe if a team is gonna be recognized as NCAA CHAMPIONS that this should be truly the BEST and most dominant team in the country.

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Championships in the vast, vast majority of sports aren't designed to give the best team recognition. They are designed so that the team that wins the championship is the champion, thereby adding to the excitement of sports and bringing upsets into the equation.

 

Was Jake Varner the best 96 kg wrestler in the world? No. Were the Baltimore Ravens the best team in the NFL this year (or the Giants last year, for that matter)? Nope. Meanwhile at the NCAA tournament, the champion is more often than not determined before the Finals even begin. In most sports, sometimes the best team wins, and sometimes they don't.

 

And anyone who posts after me can say all they want about "true measure of the best team", and that's fine, that's there opinion. Most of the sports I love to watch leave open the possibility of upsets, "Cinderella", teams getting hot at the right time. Wrestling doesn't, and maybe it never will. But I'd love to see what the sport would like if it did. The NCAA tournament for me is about the individuals who win it, the team title is secondary. Yes, I am happy when Iowa wins it, but it's not how I remember the tournaments in the end.

 

I think it's best for the growth and marketability of the sport if we make the team championship decided in a more team oriented format. Duals are about the team. Tournaments are about the individuals.

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The problem with measuring the quality of a team by dual results is that there is no credit givin for wrestling a close match.

 

The #1 guy in the country can beat the # 2 guy in the country 15-14 and according to the dual score, the #2 guy has zero worth.

 

The current NCAA championships are a great way to determine the best team in the country but they are horrible way to determine the 15th best team in the country

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Championships in the vast, vast majority of sports aren't designed to give the best team recognition. They are designed so that the team that wins the championship is the champion, thereby adding to the excitement of sports and bringing upsets into the equation.

 

Was Jake Varner the best 96 kg wrestler in the world? No. Were the Baltimore Ravens the best team in the NFL this year (or the Giants last year, for that matter)? Nope. Meanwhile at the NCAA tournament, the champion is more often than not determined before the Finals even begin. In most sports, sometimes the best team wins, and sometimes they don't.

 

And anyone who posts after me can say all they want about "true measure of the best team", and that's fine, that's there opinion. Most of the sports I love to watch leave open the possibility of upsets, "Cinderella", teams getting hot at the right time. Wrestling doesn't, and maybe it never will. But I'd love to see what the sport would like if it did. The NCAA tournament for me is about the individuals who win it, the team title is secondary. Yes, I am happy when Iowa wins it, but it's not how I remember the tournaments in the end. i i i i Vak, I really like watching the super bowl and team sports such as that for the reason you describe you never know what is gonna happen. And if the steelers are not in the super bowl(which is rare...lol) i usually cheer for the underdog. And I really like the national duals (in the right format) because it can add another marquee event to the sport of wrestling. But football has no choice or any other way in determining the champion. We do!! You give some good examples but look at this past olympic games...The women's team gymnastics title! Look how exciting they were,,the girls had their own "individual" pressure to perform and like wrestling..they were out there on the mat by themselves. There are many olympic sports that are determined by individual cumulative scoring...and they were just as intense if not more than a simple team game. If we can't have 2 champions crowned(which i would personally like) then to add relevancy and even way more excitement (attendance increasing excitement) we should give bonus points to the National duals placewinners that would be added on to the their NCAA team score. This would be IMHO an excellent way of promoting the sport and also adding in a little bit of the "luck or unknown" aspect to the team scoring to the NCAAs!! We have the potential to do both ( crown the most dominant team with a Luck component to it).

 

I think it's best for the growth and marketability of the sport if we make the team championship decided in a more team oriented format. Duals are about the team. Tournaments are about the individuals.

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Vak.. I did it again(not sure why) but my answer to your post started immediately after your post. My post starts with Vak, I really like watching the super bowl blah blah blah sorry guys , I'm really curious if you guys agree with the concept of adding bonus points from the National team duals placewinners to the NCAA team scoring...I don't think any of the top teams will wanna skip the National duals if these bonus points were implemented

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I would personally like to see both a Duel and Individual championship. Obviously enjoy the individual championship for the glory/rivalries/individual fans etc.

 

The duel championships can be awesome because you're wrestling for something bigger than yourself and that's when you really see how wrestling is a team sport. Just like how there are upsets in individual tournaments, duel matches can be exciting to watch especially when holding or trying to regain match momentum. I will support an NCAA sanctioned duel tournament any day.

 

Just my thoughts from my experience wrestling in/attending state duel tournaments.

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whoever wins an ncaa title will be the best and no one will disput that if it were an ncaa dual champion people would say whoever won it was the champion the only time you might hear people being upset are the first few years it is implemented when they say if this were last year we would have been the champions

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have two teams line up their 10 guys and wrestle best team moves on that is how other sports do it and i am fine with that i think people will find it exciting in the sec for football they love it this way the upsets are what makes fans get really excited and you know minnesota this weekend was pumped just as iowa was over penn state

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10 vs. 10 is definitely a better judge than 9 vs. 6 against the field. That being said if they went to the dual format I think they should change the dual scoring up. It hardly seems right that Team A could win the first 5 weights 7-0, 7-0, 7-0, 7-0, 7-0 and Team B wins the next 5 weights 1-0, 1-0, 1-0, 1-0, 8-0 and Team B wins even though Team A outscored them 35-12.

 

I'm not sure how you would do it without sitting down to really think about it but it would be nice if the entire score carried over. Maybe you take the actual team scores and get rid of major decisions. Then a tech. fall and a pin will clear the individual match score all together. A Tech. fall equals 15-0 and a pin equals 20-0. To me this would be a better representation of who is the better team.

 

Not to mention I think it would force kids to try to go out and get more points because it carries over to the next match in this case. Just an idea that I would like to see implemented in some form or fashion.

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10 vs. 10 is definitely a better judge than 9 vs. 6 against the field. That being said if they went to the dual format I think they should change the dual scoring up. It hardly seems right that Team A could win the first 5 weights 7-0, 7-0, 7-0, 7-0, 7-0 and Team B wins the next 5 weights 1-0, 1-0, 1-0, 1-0, 8-0 and Team B wins even though Team A outscored them 35-12.

 

I'm not sure how you would do it without sitting down to really think about it but it would be nice if the entire score carried over. Maybe you take the actual team scores and get rid of major decisions. Then a tech. fall and a pin will clear the individual match score all together. A Tech. fall equals 15-0 and a pin equals 20-0. To me this would be a better representation of who is the better team.

 

Not to mention I think it would force kids to try to go out and get more points because it carries over to the next match in this case. Just an idea that I would like to see implemented in some form or fashion.

 

That's a provocative idea. Under your proposal, Iowa would have beaten Missouri 47-27 at National Duals instead of losing 18-16 (presuming that the forfeit at 133 would be treated as a fall). Also, Minnesota would have beaten OK. St. 80-30 instead of 28-9.

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I read this earlier today and wanted to think about it a little bit before responding. I think it is clear that a fall has to be awarded the most points. Additionally, I think if we awarded a point for each point scored we would have scores that were to large to follow and would be to hard to figure out what a just number of points for a fall would be.

 

With all that said, I have no problem with changing the scoring if people feel it will better connect the benefits of the duals with the individual prowless of athletes at some programs. After all, all of the scoring has always been made up out of thin air, like all sports.

 

This is the best I have come up with for dual scoring:

 

-Team points will be determined based on the spread of a win (the maximum spread remains at 15 points for a tech fall).

-One point is awarded for every two points in a spread (a 5-4 win or a 6-4 win would earn 1 team point while a 7-4 win would earn two points).

-A tech fall would thus earn a team 8 points.

-A Fall would earn 9 points.

 

Win Margin / Dual Team Points

1 1

2 1

3 2

4 2

5 3

6 3

7 4

8 4

9 5

10 5

11 6

12 6

13 7

14 7

15 8

Fall 9

 

 

As I see it, this would provide an incentive for both wrestlers to work to score points late in a match even if the result of the bout is all but determined. Additionally, the high reward for a fall would incentivize it further.

 

Here is how it would effect a few duals this year:

 

Iowa/Penn State was 22-16 with Iowa winning it. With the change the result would be:

 

Iowa Penn State

125 1 0

133 9 0

141 5 0

149 0 5

157 1 0

165 0 8

174 1 0

184 0 6

197 0 3

285 4 0

21 22 Penn State

 

 

When Minnesota lost to Oklahoma State earlier in the year it was 22-15. The new result would be:

OSU UM

125 0 1

133 0 1

141 9 0

149 9 0

157 1 0

165 4 0

174 4 0

184 0 2

197 0 2

285 0 1

27 7 Oklahoma State

 

The rematch between Oklahoma State and Minnesota in the National Duals finals was won by Minnesota 28-9. The new rematch results would have been:

OSU UM

125 0 2

133 0 1

141 0 5

149 2 0

157 1 0

165 3 0

174 0 9

184 0 1

197 0 2

285 0 9

6 29 Minnesota

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do you guys realize how silly the scoring rules are for teams and how many bad ideas come from them. i.e. Team A wins 4 matches by F and B wins 6 by dec and team a is the better team. To me, this construct is similar to a home run being 6 pts but a run generated by 3 base hits is worth one or a long pass touchdown is worth 9 where a 1 yard run is only worth 4. To me the "team who wins the most matches is the better "team". Team A just has 4 talented wrestlers. I think the scoring causes many poor decisions such as not putting the best guy into each match every time. or FF . This, in my opinion, has a very deleterious effect on interest and attendance at dual meets. Most folk look at a blow out and think, "I'm not going to see the premier matchups I am hoping for.This works for duals. Regarding the NCAAs a team score is just silly stuff. It is an individual event that has been massaged to increase fan interest into a team event.I have no problem with that as it adds another element of excitement. Most years the best dual team does indeed win the NCAAs but occasionally it doesn't especially when one team has a bunch of pinners. I'm too intellectually lazy to do the math for this far fetched illustrative example but let's say a team of 10 huge cutters get knocked out Friday morning but all finish 3rd and pinned every match but the quarters. How many pts would their team score

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i am a big fan of reforming dual scoring. i am not quite sure how to best go about that, but it would go a long way to convincing me duals are the better way to determine team strength. the problem with the current format is that seeding plays too big of a role in a dual championship. in the individual format you can prove how good you are at each weight class over a bigger body of work. if seeding doesn't work out for you, the weight class still contributes on the back side of the bracket. if you are the number 1 team and number 8 matches up perfectly with you, it could technically not be an upset with the weaker team moving on.

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