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cangemi

Iowa big ten

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Sanderson's style is recruiting #1 p4p recruits. That is the only area Iowa is behind. Recruiting.

Tom Brands is a fine wrestling coach but Cael is better and it's obvious.  Hey that's true for every program competing against PSU.  Cael may start with great wrestlers but the work he does with them is astonishing.  

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I'd be more surprised if Iowa does not finish with a national champion than if they did. Honest Q, when was the last time the Hawkeyes didn't have at least one title winner? Seems like it doesn't happen very often, but maybe I'm mistaken here.

Edited by pamela

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How was  Brands able to recruit better (as seems to be the case) when he was at Va Tech than he does now at Iowa?

 

That said, it's obvious that PSU gets the best recruits. Why would anyone deny that-- it's not an insult to Cael as a coach?

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How was  Brands able to recruit better (as seems to be the case) when he was at Va Tech than he does now at Iowa?

 

That said, it's obvious that PSU gets the best recruits. Why would anyone deny that-- it's not an insult to Cael as a coach?

the times are changing. The thing that made Iowa a draw: intensity, extreme work ethic, out train everyone now takes a back seat to having fun

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Cael was a more dynamic folkstyle wrestler, which I think is part of the reason why he recruits wrestlers like that well. Having said that, I don't think there is proof that a wrestler like Bo Nickel couldn't have just as much success under Brands, but he hasnt been able to even get close to getting a recruits like that.

 

Now I could be wrong here. Nickel is obviously a great fit at Penn st, but has Brands ruined a kid with poor technique? I just don't see evidence for it. I consistently have seen line ups with gaping holes in it, not poorly coached kids

 

 

The bolded part is likely 100% true for both Sanderson and Brands. Cael recruits the "more dynamic" guys to fit his system, and Brands recruits his type of wrestler for the "Iowa style" system. I'm sure a guy like Nickal could and would succeed anywhere because he is "that" good, but there are a ton of really good h.s. wrestlers and cael does not land all of them. Nickal wasn't even the top rated 170 coming out of high school. The top rated 170 went to Oklahoma State that year.

 

Your second paragraph is a red herring as no one is saying Brands has ruined anyone with poor technique. What I am saying is that the two coaches have contrasting styles, and those styles are evident in the type of wrestlers in their programs and the style to which those wrestlers go at it. One style right now has captured the imagination of the best "more dynamic" wrestlers and it is resulting in championship wrestling. It is the very difference between the programs right now. 

 

Iowa fans should hope that this isn't as simple as Cael shows up, he wins. If it is that simple then the dynasty isn't going anywhere for a really long time. 

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How was  Brands able to recruit better (as seems to be the case) when he was at Va Tech than he does now at Iowa?

 

That said, it's obvious that PSU gets the best recruits. Why would anyone deny that-- it's not an insult to Cael as a coach?

 

 

He is recruiting better, but it isn't just as simple as that. What I am saying is that there is a lot more to it than that.

 

The state of any program's recruiting efforts is a sympton of the culture created by their head coach. If it is great, that is because of the whole system created by the head coach. If it less than stellar, that is a symptom of the underlying system created as well.

 

Why is Alabama football great? Alabama has no monopoly on high school talent. Other bigtime schools exist in the south. In my mind it is the combination of their culture and their head coach. 

Edited by TBar1977

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the times are changing. The thing that made Iowa a draw: intensity, extreme work ethic, out train everyone now takes a back seat to having fun

 

 

It isn't just so simple in my mind, but there is probably more truth in this than most want to acknowledge. Its the reason we got Morning Stroll With Sam Stoll and the Spencer Lee interview where he uses the word fun 10 times. Gotta keep with the times, even if it looks a little, cough cough, forced. 

Edited by TBar1977

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It isn't just so simple in my mind, but there is probably more truth in this than most want to acknowledge. Its the reason we got Morning Stroll With Sam Stoll and the Spencer Lee interview where he uses the word fun 10 times. Gotta keep with the times, even if it looks a little, cough cough, forced.

 

looks forced when every wrestler from Penn State says fun in every single interview 15 times too.

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Your second paragraph is a red herring as no one is saying Brands has ruined anyone with poor technique. What I am saying is that the two coaches have contrasting styles, and those styles are evident in the type of wrestlers in their programs and the style to which those wrestlers go at it. One style right now has captured the imagination of the best "more dynamic" wrestlers and it is resulting in championship wrestling.

 

...except when you actually said that if Iowa, Ohio St. and Penn st. All had the same recruits Iowa would lose more, suggesting that there is an issue with the coaching philosophy that would hurt their development in comparison. So no, not a red herring.

 

You and other Iowa fans don't want to believe this, but here is the deal. Take similar recruits and put half on Iowa and the other half on PSU or Ohio State, and Iowa doesn't win 1/2 the time against either school. That's coaching.

 

Edited by russelscout

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I think the reason Cael has such great success, is that he is the total package, he was great at both Folk style, and Freestyle, reaching the pinnacle of success in both.

As a coach, he was a success at Iowa State, and there seems to be no end in sight with his success at Penn St. But beyond that, is his knowledge of the sport, his experience, his interpersonal skills, his mannerisms, his temperament, and his ability to communicate and connect with the people he deals with. The other things like his assistant coaches, and the Nittany Lion Wrestling Club, probably don't hurt either.

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...except when you actually said that if Iowa, Ohio St. and Penn st. All had the same recruits Iowa would lose more, suggesting that there is an issue with the coaching philosophy that would hurt their development in comparison. So no, not a red herring.

 

 

 

Right now the philosophy at PSU and OSU are producing better teams. Most Iowa fans claim it is only recruiting, but I think there is more to it than that. Cael's "more dynamic" style that you brought up is working better. Ryan's style is diffetent, but I can see it is working well there too.

 

I hope Iowa joins the party soon. That is better for everyone.

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I think the reason Cael has such great success, is that he is the total package, he was great at both Folk style, and Freestyle, reaching the pinnacle of success in both.

As a coach, he was a success at Iowa State, and there seems to be no end in sight with his success at Penn St. But beyond that, is his knowledge of the sport, his experience, his interpersonal skills, his mannerisms, his temperament, and his ability to communicate and connect with the people he deals with. The other things like his assistant coaches, and the Nittany Lion Wrestling Club, probably don't hurt either.

You put it best, so well done.

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The allocation numbers by state are here. They are tied with the Stoner State. Not quite PA and OH numbers, so maybe there is something to this recruiting handicap thing.

Cael's starters this year include wrestlers from Indiana, Minnesota by way of Kentucky, Texas, New York, and California. Next year might add a 125 from Iowa and Zain's replacement might be another kid from Minnesota.

 

Cael and his staff obviously work hard at this coaching thing.

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Cael's starters this year include wrestlers from Indiana, Minnesota by way of Kentucky, Texas, New York, and California. Next year might add a 125 from Iowa and Zain's replacement might be another kid from Minnesota.

 

Cael and his staff obviously work hard at this coaching thing.

Don't forget Utah.

Hall is actually MI-MN-KY, so they have 8 states represented.  He would have had the same success at Iowa State.

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Cael's starters this year include wrestlers from Indiana, Minnesota by way of Kentucky, Texas, New York, and California. Next year might add a 125 from Iowa and Zain's replacement might be another kid from Minnesota.

 

Cael and his staff obviously work hard at this coaching thing.

 

Its like you are trying to bait the coaching vs recruiting argument.....

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Right now the philosophy at PSU and OSU are producing better teams. Most Iowa fans claim it is only recruiting, but I think there is more to it than that. Cael's "more dynamic" style that you brought up is working better. Ryan's style is diffetent, but I can see it is working well there too.

I hope Iowa joins the party soon. That is better for everyone.

you think it's better coaching, but since there is really only evidence that Iowa has fallen behind in recruiting(which is one aspect of coaching), not actually developing their athletes, you have started back tracking and saying this vague style gibberish... if it's hard to explain, it's usually BS dude. Can we just agree that Penn st. is good right now and Iowa is not? I dont see why you are arguing against the obvious.

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you think it's better coaching, but since there is really only evidence that Iowa has fallen behind in recruiting(which is one aspect of coaching), not actually developing their athletes, you have started back tracking and saying this vague style gibberish... if it's hard to explain, it's usually BS dude. Can we just agree that Penn st. is good right now and Iowa is not? I dont see why you are arguing against the obvious.

 

 

Look at the post following yours, that is why I argue this point. We can both agree on two things, one, that PSU and tOSU have better results than Iowa the past several years, and two, they are winning the recruiting battle. Both of those things are true and we seem to agree on that. Where we are going to part ways is the idea that "it is only recruiting", which WildTurkey clings to like a life raft in the South Pacific. 

 

Recruiting is a sympton, not the reason. The reason is the entire dynamic within the program from the head coach on down. It includes everything the head coach puts into the system. That is what I am saying. To make the silly posts that Wild Turkey makes implies Cael Sanderson can only recruit, which many Iowa fans have openly stated to placate their pain from years of losing battles with Penn State. 

Edited by TBar1977

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If someone told you that TnT were only good at the Xs and Os of coaching, would you agree?

I would say they focused on x's and o's almost exclusively because the philosophy of recruiting the "right guy" and developing him up was what they learned.  Now, with  anywhere from 5 to 10 year round specialists coming out of High School per year, the recruiting landscape has changed.  

 

Where Brands and Iowa fell behind is taking TOO MANY years to adapt to this phenomenon.  Meanwhile, Cael and Ryan noticed this early on and went all-in on recruiting these types.  Hell, Sanderson has been a monster at finding that 1 need guy per weight to be ready to step in right after a key senior graduates.

 

With all that said, I in no way am saying that Sanderson isn't a great developer of talent.  He may very well be as good or better than Brands.  However, the GLARING reason that separates the 2 teams IS what I listed above.  Sanderson may very well have taken his teams to more Championships if the recruiting was even.  BUT, it is nearly indisputable that it would be WAAAY closer.  Just simply look at the limited top 10 recruits Brands has had and they have been pretty damn good.

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Ok, Cael certainly is a great coach, no doubt about it. Same with Tom Ryan. I agree with that. I have never said that the Brands were better at anything yet, only that their is one glaring issue that they have fallen behind on. Which I think we are agreeing on?

 

As far as coaching athletes go, the Brands, Ryan, and Sanderson are all great. Sanderson has gotten the most out of his athletes, definitely. Taylor, nolf, Retherford, Ruth have excelled. A lot of that can be directly attributed to Caels coaching.

 

Ryan has had some excellent recruits, but the Jordan's were huge recruits that don't seem to get to the next level(although they are still amazing). Snyder, a huge recruit, but do you attribute his or tomasellos success to Ryan? I don't know that I do to the same degree as Cael. However Ryan recruits so well his lineup is packed with studs.

 

Brands if anything has overachievers. Guys like Metcalf would have done it anywhere, but Jay Borshel, Corey Clark, St John, McDonough, Ramos, Montell Marion. The studs they have had were not top 10 p4p recruits. Iowa had their run, but the formula they used will not work now and Iowa had to figure it out the hard way. The promising thing is that it appears that Iowa is starting to change that formula, look outside of the Iowa State tourney for recruits and are starting to bring in some can't miss bonus point scorers. That is promising for the future.

 

So yes, many Iowa fans say "Its all about recruiting". No it's not ALL about recruiting, but it is clearly where they have fallen behind. It's not a shot at Cael. He can clearly coach. It's just the biggest obstacle Iowa has to overcome at this point.

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Haines wrestling elsewhere has nothing to do with Stoll or Iowa, though. He went elsewhere because he isn't as good as Nevills, which has nothing to do with this argument. 

 

Stoll's h.s. ranking is right behind Nevills h.s. ranking at Hwt. Stoll pinned everyone in h.s. Stoll won a medal at cadet Worlds. Intermat had Stoll #10 in their P4P rankings, while D1 had Stoll #12 in their P4P. To claim expectations were not as high for him as they were for Nevills is disingenuous considering both these rankings and that at the time most Iowa fans who bothered to opine on the subject felt differently.

 

You and other Iowa fans don't want to believe this, but here is the deal. Take similar recruits and put half on Iowa and the other half on PSU or Ohio State, and Iowa doesn't win 1/2 the time against either school. That's coaching. 

 

Some one the internet wrote something that rings true to me. If something doesn't work at OSU, TOSU, or PSU they ask the kid to try something different. If something doesn't work at Iowa they ask the kid to just try harder. One of these philosophies is on the wane. That's coaching. 

 

Well at least we know who is the best person for the gig when T&T get kicked to the curb.  That makes me feel better.  Plus they won't even have to change the monograms on the towels. 

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