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FATMANROLL

I swear some people don't understand seeding!

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Seeds are not just for the wrestler that holds the spot, they protect the opponent as well.

 

Many of you want the MFFT and the subsequent lower placement at qualifying tourneys to result in lower seeds for proven studs. This is unfair to the rest of the field.

 

 

Let's say a wrestler like Kyle Snyder just meets the qualifying standard due to low match count but he has a proven track record against top tier NCAA competition. This wrestler goes to his qualifying meet and comes down with a kidney stone and defaults out of the first match. Where do you seed him?

 

He is clearly the best wrestler at the weight but many say he needs to suffer the repercussions of not wrestling the full qualifier. So is it right to draw him in? Is it fair to the other studs in his weight to draw him in the round of 32? Should he be seeded #1 so he is on track to meet #2 in the finals where should? Seed him in the lower 1/2 and he beats the 2nd best kid in the weight early.

 

I'm not a big fan of the seeding formula as it take common sense away from the process.

 

I'll give the example of 1984 PA District 6 HWT bracket. There was a kid who was 0-0 entered. Everybody knew he was the best in the bracket but if the district used the modern day seeding formula, he would be drawn in and some wrestlers would have been screwed out of the chance to qualify for the Regional. The kid went on to win the district, region and the state meet.

 

Common sense needs to prevail not some silly formula or punishment rendered for not wrestling the full qualifier.

 

What say you?

Edited by FATMANROLL

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I'm not a big fan of the seeding formula as it take common sense away from the process.

 

 

It's impossible to have common sense when bias and subjectivity are combined. You have to have a formula to keep that in check. Formulas also bring relevance to the rest of the season, which is the vast majority of it. No formula will ever be perfect, but it is much better than letting subjectivity and backroom negotiating rear their ugly heads. 

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Seeds are not just for the wrestler that holds the spot, they protect the opponent as well.

 

Many of you want the MFFT and the subsequent lower placement at qualifying tourneys to result in lower seeds for proven studs. This is unfair to the rest of the field.

 

 

Let's say a wrestler like Kyle Snyder just meets the qualifying standard due to low match count but he has a proven track record against top tier NCAA competition. This wrestler goes to his qualifying meet and comes down with a kidney stone and defaults out of the first match. Where do you seed him?

 

He is clearly the best wrestler at the weight but many say he needs to suffer the repercussions of not wrestling the full qualifier. So is it right to draw him in? Is it fair to the other studs in his weight to draw him in the round of 32? Should he be seeded #1 so he is on track to meet #2 in the finals where should? Seed him in the lower 1/2 and he beats the 2nd best kid in the weight early.

 

I'm not a big fan of the seeding formula as it take common sense away from the process.

 

I'll give the example of 1984 PA District 6 HWT bracket. There was a kid who was 0-0 entered. Everybody knew he was the best in the bracket but if the district used the modern day seeding formula, he would be drawn in and some wrestlers would have been screwed out of the chance to qualify for the Regional. The kid went on to win the district, region and the state meet.

 

Common sense needs to prevail not some silly formula or punishment rendered for not wrestling the full qualifier.

 

What say you?

Common sense says a MFFT is a loss.

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What about guys who do not have enough matches to qualify an allocation then take that spot at the tournament? How is that "fair to the rest of the field"?  They avoided competition, wrestled freestyle, or whatever. What's "fair for the field" is for guys to get losses for MFFT when they avoid competition in order to protect a seed or head to head matchup. It's not good for wrestling as a whole for guys to MFFT out, unless of course they cannot walk - which is not the situation we are talking about. 

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So apparently you guys are in favor of brackets being blown up and good kids being sent to the back side because of intentionally seeding great wrestlers below where they should be placed?

 

How do you know if that's where they should be placed when they haven't wrestled the top tier competition and they are not at 100% because they have an injury? 

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The solution is simple.

Treat conferences as an extension of the NCAA Tournament.

If you MFF out of the conference qualifier, you MFF out of the post season. You at not eligible for an At Large bid.

If you choose to Default out of one match all subsequent matches in the wrestle backs are then consodered MFF which ends your post season run.

 

The only time you can default and still advance to NCAAs is if it's in a placement match.

 

Ie you make the finals and injury default.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Injury, flu, migraine? How do you know why the kid sat out. So a kid with the credentials like a Retherford only steps on the mat for the 1st round of the Bigs and defaults and you now maybe seed him 4th or 8th at the NCAAs How is it fair to the 2nd best kid like a Sorenson to have to wrestle the # 1 kid in the country in the semis and possibly lose, when if seeded correctly he should have met him in the finals and gained the team points that accompany a finals appearance

 

 

My point is that placing a known stud in a lower seed affects more than just the athlete you want punished for MFFting.

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Injury, flu, migraine? How do you know why the kid sat out. So a kid with the credentials like a Retherford only steps on the mat for the 1st round of the Bigs and defaults and you now maybe seed him 4th or 8th at the NCAAs How is it fair to the 2nd best kid like a Sorenson to have to wrestle the # 1 kid in the country in the semis and possibly lose, when if seeded correctly he should have met him in the finals and gained the team points that accompany a finals appearance

My point is that placing a known stud in a lower seed affects more than just the athlete you want punished for MFFting.

You brought up PA high school post season as an example. If a kid with great credentials ie returning State champ etc, gets any of those things during districts or regionals he doesn't not get to go to states. If the same thing happens to Jordan Burroughs or Kyle Snyder at the Olympic Team Trials he doesn't get to go. People have an issue with the "abuse" of MFF. This solves that abuse. In terms of the current situation, I agree with you though in terms of seeding. Punishing a wrestler for MFF, does not punish him. It punishes the field. Edited by BigTenFanboy

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The solution is simple.

Treat conferences as an extension of the NCAA Tournament.

If you MFF out of the conference qualifier, you MFF out of the post season. You at not eligible for an At Large bid.

If you choose to Default out of one match all subsequent matches in the wrestle backs are then consodered MFF which ends your post season run.

The only time you can default and still advance to NCAAs is if it's in a placement match.

Ie you make the finals and injury default.

 

So you are saying if a kid defaults due to injury he won't be eligible to compete in the back side?

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How do you know if that's where they should be placed when they haven't wrestled the top tier competition and they are not at 100% because they have an injury?

You brought up PA high school post season as an example. If a kid with great credentials ie returning State champ etc, gets any of those things during districts or regionals he doesn't not get to go to states. If the same thing happens to Jordan Burroughs or Kyle Snyder at the Olympic Team Trials he doesn't get to go. People have an issue with the "abuse" of MFF. This solves that abuse. In terms of the current situation, I agree with you though in terms of seeding. Punishing a wrestler for MFF, does not punish him. It punishes the field.

Actually there are plenty examples of post team trial wrestle offs for injured wrestlers if their credentials pass muster and there is medical proof

 

I

Edited by FATMANROLL

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Actually there are plenty examples of post team trial wrestle offs for injured wrestlers if their credentials pass muster and there is medical proof

Fair enough. In terms of NCAAs there's not enough time to conduct those situations. Part of what makes the PIAA postseason so exciting and interesting is the fact that you have to remain healthy/competitive for the 4 week post season.

 

Personally I have no real issue with the MFF situation that took place this past weekend, however I agree with you that the solutions being offered will not improve things. They will actually make the NCAA Tournament worse. The solution I offer will actually solve the MFF issue and make seeding remain as accurate as possible based on the wrestlers that actually qualified.

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So apparently you guys are in favor of brackets being blown up and good kids being sent to the back side because of intentionally seeding great wrestlers below where they should be placed?

The only way a bracket gets blown up is if the one or two seed loses early, otherwise everyone is right on track in the half of the bracket that they will finish.

Edited by unbiased

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The only way a bracket gets blown up is if the one or two seed loses early, otherwise everyone is right on track in the half of the bracket that they will finish.

Draw the best kid in the weight into the bracket or give him a artificially low seed as a punishment for not wrestling the full qualifier, chances it will happen are increased significantly

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Seeds are not just for the wrestler that holds the spot, they protect the opponent as well.

 

Many of you want the MFFT and the subsequent lower placement at qualifying tourneys to result in lower seeds for proven studs. This is unfair to the rest of the field.

 

 

Let's say a wrestler like Kyle Snyder just meets the qualifying standard due to low match count but he has a proven track record against top tier NCAA competition. This wrestler goes to his qualifying meet and comes down with a kidney stone and defaults out of the first match. Where do you seed him?

 

He is clearly the best wrestler at the weight but many say he needs to suffer the repercussions of not wrestling the full qualifier. So is it right to draw him in? Is it fair to the other studs in his weight to draw him in the round of 32? Should he be seeded #1 so he is on track to meet #2 in the finals where should? Seed him in the lower 1/2 and he beats the 2nd best kid in the weight early.

 

I'm not a big fan of the seeding formula as it take common sense away from the process.

 

I'll give the example of 1984 PA District 6 HWT bracket. There was a kid who was 0-0 entered. Everybody knew he was the best in the bracket but if the district used the modern day seeding formula, he would be drawn in and some wrestlers would have been screwed out of the chance to qualify for the Regional. The kid went on to win the district, region and the state meet.

 

Common sense needs to prevail not some silly formula or punishment rendered for not wrestling the full qualifier.

 

What say you?

The guys who are MFF are not doing so because they are healthy.  They are doing so because they are compromised wrestlers who are not capable of wrestling like they normally do.  When you pretend they are healthy you end up with far more broken and lopsided brackets then when you count a loss as a loss.  

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Conference tournaments are just regular season matches if placement doesn't matter. Some conferences you have to win to enter the NCAA's but some you can not finish and still get a 1 seed? Something needs to change.

 

Make Conference tournaments great again! 

 

I know we look at people like Nolf and Suriano and think they are untouchable, but they're not and even their coaches know it. Crazier upsets have and will continue to happen. As much as we think they are still a lock at a 6 or 7 seed, that isn't where they want to be. Let's be realistic, neither one of them, even if they did lose three in a row at Big Tens, would drop below a 6 or 7. All this means is that they would meet a higher seed in the quarters instead of the semis. The bracket isn't busted. We're not all idiots. They get what they get. This isn't fantasy wrestling, seeds should be earned, not handed out. 

Edited by superbowlhomeboy

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Seeds are not just for the wrestler that holds the spot, they protect the opponent as well.

 

Many of you want the MFFT and the subsequent lower placement at qualifying tourneys to result in lower seeds for proven studs. This is unfair to the rest of the field.

 

 

Let's say a wrestler like Kyle Snyder just meets the qualifying standard due to low match count but he has a proven track record against top tier NCAA competition. This wrestler goes to his qualifying meet and comes down with a kidney stone and defaults out of the first match. Where do you seed him?

 

He is clearly the best wrestler at the weight but many say he needs to suffer the repercussions of not wrestling the full qualifier. So is it right to draw him in? Is it fair to the other studs in his weight to draw him in the round of 32? Should he be seeded #1 so he is on track to meet #2 in the finals where should? Seed him in the lower 1/2 and he beats the 2nd best kid in the weight early.

 

I'm not a big fan of the seeding formula as it take common sense away from the process.

 

I'll give the example of 1984 PA District 6 HWT bracket. There was a kid who was 0-0 entered. Everybody knew he was the best in the bracket but if the district used the modern day seeding formula, he would be drawn in and some wrestlers would have been screwed out of the chance to qualify for the Regional. The kid went on to win the district, region and the state meet.

 

Common sense needs to prevail not some silly formula or punishment rendered for not wrestling the full qualifier.

 

What say you?

That "kid" went on to win 6 national titles as well :)

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Seeds are not just for the wrestler that holds the spot, they protect the opponent as well.

 

 

 

Nope that's not what seeds are for. They are not to "protect" anybody. They are to give a "deserving participants" the opportunity to compete later in an event. 

 

Now how you define and determine who fits into that term are of course up for debate. 

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Seeds are not just for the wrestler that holds the spot, they protect the opponent as well.

 

Many of you want the MFFT and the subsequent lower placement at qualifying tourneys to result in lower seeds for proven studs. This is unfair to the rest of the field.

 

 

Let's say a wrestler like Kyle Snyder just meets the qualifying standard due to low match count but he has a proven track record against top tier NCAA competition. This wrestler goes to his qualifying meet and comes down with a kidney stone and defaults out of the first match. Where do you seed him?

 

He is clearly the best wrestler at the weight but many say he needs to suffer the repercussions of not wrestling the full qualifier. So is it right to draw him in? Is it fair to the other studs in his weight to draw him in the round of 32? Should he be seeded #1 so he is on track to meet #2 in the finals where should? Seed him in the lower 1/2 and he beats the 2nd best kid in the weight early.

 

I'm not a big fan of the seeding formula as it take common sense away from the process.

 

I'll give the example of 1984 PA District 6 HWT bracket. There was a kid who was 0-0 entered. Everybody knew he was the best in the bracket but if the district used the modern day seeding formula, he would be drawn in and some wrestlers would have been screwed out of the chance to qualify for the Regional. The kid went on to win the district, region and the state meet.

 

Common sense needs to prevail not some silly formula or punishment rendered for not wrestling the full qualifier.

 

What say you?

 

 

Agree. 

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Yes, but when someone mffts, not because they are in fear of being hurt, but because they are not 100 percent and may lose, they are hoping the seeding process defers to record and/or "common sense" instead of risking a loss which will force a lower seed. That's why it just needs to be counted as a loss to avoid that.

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Yes, but when someone mffts, not because they are in fear of being hurt, but because they are not 100 percent and may lose, they are hoping the seeding process defers to record and/or "common sense" instead of risking a loss which will force a lower seed. That's why it just needs to be counted as a loss to avoid that.

 

 

But you'd need to be a mind reader to know why someone MFF. Does anyone think Nolf MFF to protect seed? Or did he do it to protect his knee? Same for Suriano. These are two guys who show up when healthy. 

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