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How are "byes" chosen, and how scored?


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#1 smackie84

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 10:17 AM

Sorry about the dumb question, but how are bye's decided as far as who must wrestle the "round of 64" and who gets a pass?  Also, how are bye's scored for teams?



#2 mlbruem

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 10:32 AM

Do not quite understand the question as there are no bye's and there is no round of 64.

 

If you mean how are the pigtails chosen, random draw after seeding. every one wrestles the first round(32) except the guy who lost the pigtail.



#3 MNRodent

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 10:40 AM

I thought that you did not get advancement points for a pigtail match unless you win the following round. 



#4 gimpeltf

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 11:08 AM

It's completely random although other tournies including qualifiers can use alternate methods to assigning them. I believe last year they reverted to not scoring the bye points in the round of 64. They used to not do it until around the mid-80s. We noticed the scores were higher than expected. The rules always specified bye points but they seemed to ignore the rule. The rule still is there but I've noticed while I worked the event and otherwise they do what they want to do regardless of the rules. For the most part this really only applies to tournament situations.



#5 TBar1977

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 11:08 AM

I thought that you did not get advancement points for a pigtail match unless you win the following round.


This correct, you have to win round of 32 to get advancement point.

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#6 ISUChip

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 11:24 AM

2013 was the year it changed from "64-man bracket with bye points" to "32-man bracket + 1 scored pigtail". I remember sitting in Des Moines trying to figure out why I was off a couple of points during the first session. It was revealed sometime late in session 1 (or before session 2) that the scoring formula had changed.

 

The bye points were eliminated on front and back, but the pigtail matches were still scored normally (adv + bonus).



#7 gimpeltf

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 11:25 AM

Again, they now don't score points for byes at all at NCAAs. Gulibon (first person I came to starting at the top that had a bye) scored 2 advancement points. 1 in the championships and 2*.5 in the cons. In the immediate past he would have scored 1 more for the bye.



#8 gimpeltf

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 11:26 AM

2013 was the year it changed from "64-man bracket with bye points" to "32-man bracket + 1 scored pigtail". I remember sitting in Des Moines trying to figure out why I was off a couple of points during the first session. It was revealed sometime late in session 1 (or before session 2) that the scoring formula had changed.

 

The bye points were eliminated on front and back, but the pigtail matches were still scored normally (adv + bonus).

 

I didn't realize it was that far back.



#9 lu_alum

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 12:22 PM

The other aspect is that byes are not completely random.  They are randomly assigned to unseeded wrestlers.  Must make it to round of 32 to earn bye points.  From the Pre-Championships Manual:

http://www.ncaa.org/...al_20170907.pdf

 

PAIRINGS AND SEEDING

The top 16 wrestlers in each weight class will be seeded with no requirement that wrestlers from the same conference tournament

not meet in the first round. Further, all pigtail (play-in) matches will be randomly selected from the pool of unseeded wrestlers.

After the seeds have been determined and placed in the bracket, the remainder of the weight class will be drawn randomly.

 

BYE POINTS

A bye point will be awarded to wrestlers who win their next match after the bye.


Edited by lu_alum, 12 March 2018 - 12:23 PM.


#10 RichB

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 01:01 PM

Logically (yeah, when does the NCAA do anything logically)

 

Seems to me brackets of 4, 8 16, 32, 64 are "perfect brackets".

 

Brackets of 5, 9-11, 17-23, 33-47, mean there will be pigtails, and no bye points. 

 

Brackets of  7, 13-15, 25-31, 49-63, mean there will be byes, including advancement points for those byes.

 

I have no idea which way 6,12,24,48 should be considered. Yeah, I know NJ uses 24. Perfectly imperfect.

 

5,10,20,40 could be considered semi perfect. When designed properly, max additional bouts over a perfect bracket, is one. with normal bracketing to 8 places, max bouts is 4; 16 is 6; 32 is 8; 64 is 10. With 10 max bouts is 5; 20 is 7; 40 is 9.  See the PIAA brackets of the last 2 years, or California for at least 6.

 

Question. there is no substitute available. One wrestler announces withdrawal at 7:00 PM Wed another an hour later. When the bracket is redrawn Thursday AM, there will be a bye, will there be an advancement point if he wins thru to the quarter-finals?   



#11 gimpeltf

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 01:09 PM

Looks like they might have done same last few years as to seed placement vs pigtail. Possibly as early as 2013 as ISUChip notes with bye points.  I'm not sure what to make of the current bye statement unless they reenabled them in scoring.



#12 Eagle26

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 02:02 PM

So the consensus is no advancement points for pig tails.... Does that mean there are bonus points scored in the pig tail round? or no points at all?

#13 TBar1977

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 02:30 PM

So the consensus is no advancement points for pig tails.... Does that mean there are bonus points scored in the pig tail round? or no points at all?


Bonus pts count.

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#14 lu_alum

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 02:36 PM

Bonus pts count.

 

As do advancement points for those winning PT bouts.



#15 BigTenFanboy

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 02:51 PM

Serious question.. when's the last time a pigtail wrestler AA'd?

#16 gimpeltf

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 03:19 PM

As do advancement points for those winning PT bouts.

 

Do you have the 2017 pre championship manual? I don't see it anywhere



#17 RichB

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 03:39 PM

Serious question.. when's the last time a pigtail wrestler AA'd?

Don't know the answer, but Daryl Burley and Mike Frick both won 6 bouts to win both their titles. But I guess there were 355 entrants in those years (1975-1983)

Ethan loft house Iowa 2012.

 

But Boomers sight does not have 2014 2015 2017.


Edited by RichB, 12 March 2018 - 03:40 PM.


#18 lu_alum

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 04:03 PM

Do you have the 2017 pre championship manual? I don't see it anywhere

 

Not online anymore - I have it on my iPad.  IM me your email and I can send it to you.



#19 lu_alum

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 04:25 PM

Don't know the answer, but Daryl Burley and Mike Frick both won 6 bouts to win both their titles. But I guess there were 355 entrants in those years (1975-1983)

Ethan loft house Iowa 2012.

 

But Boomers sight does not have 2014 2015 2017.

 

2013:  Matthew Gibson (Iowa State) placed 8th at 285 after winning his opening PT.

 

Not sure if RichB means that Boomer's dB shows no PT AAs, or if he means that the site doesn't show the PTs.. I can see the PTs.  For the years mentioned, no AAs from either the championship or consolation PT.

 

2014:  Best was Tavanello (tOSU), who made R12 at 285 after losing the opening PT.  Tavanello's championship PT was v Ty Walz of Va Tech, who went 2-2.

2015:  Jordan Laster (Princeton) made R12 at 149 after winning his opening PT.

2015:  Mike Englund (Mizzou) made R12 at 165 after winning his opening PT.

2016:  Shawn Scott (N Illinois) made R12 at 197 after winning his opening PT. 

2016:  Billy Smith (Rutgers) lost his opener, dropping into the consy PT.  He made R12.

2017:  BJ Clagon (Rider) made the QF & dropped two at 157, finishing as R12.

2017:  Doug Vollaro (Lehigh) made the R12 at 285 after winning his opening PT.


Edited by lu_alum, 12 March 2018 - 04:31 PM.


#20 gimpeltf

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 11:09 PM

It's not really a meaningful question prior to when this change was made in that seeded wrestlers used to get pts. For the 20 years I did the pairings, it was simply random so it could have happened regularly. My last year was 2006 and a couple happened then. At least 1 from championship pt and at least another from cons pt.


Edited by gimpeltf, 13 March 2018 - 12:10 AM.





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