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smackie84

How are "byes" chosen, and how scored?

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Do not quite understand the question as there are no bye's and there is no round of 64.

 

If you mean how are the pigtails chosen, random draw after seeding. every one wrestles the first round(32) except the guy who lost the pigtail.

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It's completely random although other tournies including qualifiers can use alternate methods to assigning them. I believe last year they reverted to not scoring the bye points in the round of 64. They used to not do it until around the mid-80s. We noticed the scores were higher than expected. The rules always specified bye points but they seemed to ignore the rule. The rule still is there but I've noticed while I worked the event and otherwise they do what they want to do regardless of the rules. For the most part this really only applies to tournament situations.

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2013 was the year it changed from "64-man bracket with bye points" to "32-man bracket + 1 scored pigtail". I remember sitting in Des Moines trying to figure out why I was off a couple of points during the first session. It was revealed sometime late in session 1 (or before session 2) that the scoring formula had changed.

 

The bye points were eliminated on front and back, but the pigtail matches were still scored normally (adv + bonus).

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Again, they now don't score points for byes at all at NCAAs. Gulibon (first person I came to starting at the top that had a bye) scored 2 advancement points. 1 in the championships and 2*.5 in the cons. In the immediate past he would have scored 1 more for the bye.

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2013 was the year it changed from "64-man bracket with bye points" to "32-man bracket + 1 scored pigtail". I remember sitting in Des Moines trying to figure out why I was off a couple of points during the first session. It was revealed sometime late in session 1 (or before session 2) that the scoring formula had changed.

 

The bye points were eliminated on front and back, but the pigtail matches were still scored normally (adv + bonus).

 

I didn't realize it was that far back.

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The other aspect is that byes are not completely random.  They are randomly assigned to unseeded wrestlers.  Must make it to round of 32 to earn bye points.  From the Pre-Championships Manual:

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2018DIMWR_PreChamps_Manual_20170907.pdf

 

PAIRINGS AND SEEDING

The top 16 wrestlers in each weight class will be seeded with no requirement that wrestlers from the same conference tournament

not meet in the first round. Further, all pigtail (play-in) matches will be randomly selected from the pool of unseeded wrestlers.

After the seeds have been determined and placed in the bracket, the remainder of the weight class will be drawn randomly.

 

BYE POINTS

A bye point will be awarded to wrestlers who win their next match after the bye.

Edited by lu_alum

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Logically (yeah, when does the NCAA do anything logically)

 

Seems to me brackets of 4, 8 16, 32, 64 are "perfect brackets".

 

Brackets of 5, 9-11, 17-23, 33-47, mean there will be pigtails, and no bye points. 

 

Brackets of  7, 13-15, 25-31, 49-63, mean there will be byes, including advancement points for those byes.

 

I have no idea which way 6,12,24,48 should be considered. Yeah, I know NJ uses 24. Perfectly imperfect.

 

5,10,20,40 could be considered semi perfect. When designed properly, max additional bouts over a perfect bracket, is one. with normal bracketing to 8 places, max bouts is 4; 16 is 6; 32 is 8; 64 is 10. With 10 max bouts is 5; 20 is 7; 40 is 9.  See the PIAA brackets of the last 2 years, or California for at least 6.

 

Question. there is no substitute available. One wrestler announces withdrawal at 7:00 PM Wed another an hour later. When the bracket is redrawn Thursday AM, there will be a bye, will there be an advancement point if he wins thru to the quarter-finals?   

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Looks like they might have done same last few years as to seed placement vs pigtail. Possibly as early as 2013 as ISUChip notes with bye points.  I'm not sure what to make of the current bye statement unless they reenabled them in scoring.

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Serious question.. when's the last time a pigtail wrestler AA'd?

Don't know the answer, but Daryl Burley and Mike Frick both won 6 bouts to win both their titles. But I guess there were 355 entrants in those years (1975-1983)

Ethan loft house Iowa 2012.

 

But Boomers sight does not have 2014 2015 2017.

Edited by RichB

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Don't know the answer, but Daryl Burley and Mike Frick both won 6 bouts to win both their titles. But I guess there were 355 entrants in those years (1975-1983)

Ethan loft house Iowa 2012.

 

But Boomers sight does not have 2014 2015 2017.

 

2013:  Matthew Gibson (Iowa State) placed 8th at 285 after winning his opening PT.

 

Not sure if RichB means that Boomer's dB shows no PT AAs, or if he means that the site doesn't show the PTs.. I can see the PTs.  For the years mentioned, no AAs from either the championship or consolation PT.

 

2014:  Best was Tavanello (tOSU), who made R12 at 285 after losing the opening PT.  Tavanello's championship PT was v Ty Walz of Va Tech, who went 2-2.

2015:  Jordan Laster (Princeton) made R12 at 149 after winning his opening PT.

2015:  Mike Englund (Mizzou) made R12 at 165 after winning his opening PT.

2016:  Shawn Scott (N Illinois) made R12 at 197 after winning his opening PT. 

2016:  Billy Smith (Rutgers) lost his opener, dropping into the consy PT.  He made R12.

2017:  BJ Clagon (Rider) made the QF & dropped two at 157, finishing as R12.

2017:  Doug Vollaro (Lehigh) made the R12 at 285 after winning his opening PT.

Edited by lu_alum

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It's not really a meaningful question prior to when this change was made in that seeded wrestlers used to get pts. For the 20 years I did the pairings, it was simply random so it could have happened regularly. My last year was 2006 and a couple happened then. At least 1 from championship pt and at least another from cons pt.

Edited by gimpeltf

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As do advancement points for those winning PT bouts.

 

 

4.4.2 Advancement Points. One team point shall be scored for each match won in the championship bracket and ½ point in the wrestle-back bracket, except for the final first-, third-, fifth- and seventh-place matches. One point in the championship bracket and ½ point in the wrestle-back bracket shall be awarded for a bye if the wrestler receiving the bye wins in the next round.

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4.4.2 Advancement Points. One team point shall be scored for each match won in the championship bracket and ½ point in the wrestle-back bracket, except for the final first-, third-, fifth- and seventh-place matches. One point in the championship bracket and ½ point in the wrestle-back bracket shall be awarded for a bye if the wrestler receiving the bye wins in the next round.

Reread my post. I’m not talking about those who had a bye. I said those who WIN a PT get advancement.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Edited by lu_alum

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Thanks to LU_Alum for sending the 2017 PreChamps manual. The same note is in there about bye points as this year. Byes were not scored in the round of 64 last year so I assume it's either something never edited out since 2013 or they mean starting with the round of 32 in the off chance that 2 wrestlers don't show up and are not replaced.

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2013:  Matthew Gibson (Iowa State) placed 8th at 285 after winning his opening PT.

 

Not sure if RichB means that Boomer's dB shows no PT AAs, or if he means that the site doesn't show the PTs.. I can see the PTs.  For the years mentioned, no AAs from either the championship or consolation PT.

 

2014:  Best was Tavanello (tOSU), who made R12 at 285 after losing the opening PT.  Tavanello's championship PT was v Ty Walz of Va Tech, who went 2-2.

2015:  Jordan Laster (Princeton) made R12 at 149 after winning his opening PT.

2015:  Mike Englund (Mizzou) made R12 at 165 after winning his opening PT.

2016:  Shawn Scott (N Illinois) made R12 at 197 after winning his opening PT. 

2016:  Billy Smith (Rutgers) lost his opener, dropping into the consy PT.  He made R12.

2017:  BJ Clagon (Rider) made the QF & dropped two at 157, finishing as R12.

2017:  Doug Vollaro (Lehigh) made the R12 at 285 after winning his opening PT.

What I mean is I missed Gibson. And I forgot to look at the Middle Column with 2014+2011 and the Right Column with 2010 + 2015. I guess I missed my nap on National Nap Day.

 

Am I correct in seeds, even as low as 16, are no longer involved in pigtails?

Edited by RichB

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