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GuillermoBilletas

Time to ditch the NCAA

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You would think cheerleading is almost exclusively American, but for the North Korean girls at the Olympics. However you go see the Swedish movie, The Square, (Oscar Nominee-probably at an art theater near you) almost the climax of the movie, the main character takes his ~9 and ~13 girls to their cheerleading competition.

 

In Pa, Cheer has been a varsity sport for maybe 6-8 years. They hold it in the Giant Center, same as wrestling and B-ball. 4 classifications, Small, Medium, Large (squad size not school population) (all girls), and Coed. Even the Coed teams look to be at least 2/3 girls.

 

Maybe a better model for not being in the NCAA (and no, I don't think wrestling should exit) is crew. For decades before the Civil War it was a big sport, both Collegiate, and not. Over 100,000 people at the biggest competitions (like at the Centennial in 1876).

 

Again, not in favor of an exit. But the EIWA also predates the NCAA 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Wrestling is a sport that benefits greatly from being affiliated with the NCAA.  9.9 scholarships per D1 team is creating significant value for our athletes. Also, affiliation leads to benefits like health insurance and access to trainers (even though many are sub par and have difficulty diagnosing missing ligaments).  Spend a week at an NAIA team and then spend a week on a D1 team and you'll see the difference.  Even D2/D3 is much better than non affiliation.  

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As much as I like the idea, programs would drop like flies if most of these coaches had to fundraiser for their entire budgets. Only the strongest teams that currently exist at each level.

 

One thing I think SHOULD be happening is that the club teams at each school hit up Fargo and recruit for Freestyle and Greco. It has to start somewhere, but after some success, donors will begin to support such clubs in effort to get more kids who don’t want to participate in American Folk. At that point, those teams can offer whatever scholarships they please to those kids, because there’s no connection to the NCAA. Someone has to take that first step. Maybe it happens at a JuCo...

 

 

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It is time.  We will be at less than 50 DI programs within 10-12 years.

 

If there is any growth for folk- it is at the lower divisions.  Let them have it.

 

Sport leadership needs to re-invision how we do things.

 

Club/ RTC model for highest level athletes

You sound like someone who's never wrestled.

Edited by stp

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Wrestling is a sport that benefits greatly from being affiliated with the NCAA. 9.9 scholarships per D1 team is creating significant value for our athletes. Also, affiliation leads to benefits like health insurance and access to trainers (even though many are sub par and have difficulty diagnosing missing ligaments). Spend a week at an NAIA team and then spend a week on a D1 team and you'll see the difference. Even D2/D3 is much better than non affiliation.

How many programs have the 9.9?

 

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I do agree we may be looking at 50 programs in 12 years, out of which only 25 will be fully funded and out of those 25, only about 8 will have insane funding.

 

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out of those 8 , 3-4 will have chance to win natty

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Keep begging for table scraps

 

jeez be more dramatic. if it bothers you so much just stop following NCAA wrestling. plenty of international competitions to keep you busy. then theres NAIA, JuCo, and club teams if you want folkstyle.

 

you'll still have to beg for money to fuel growth so your plan is still insanely stupid but at least you won't feel personally shamed when another NCAA university shuts down a program. 

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A big gamble....but worth the risk if we continue to see decline would be for wrestling to have its own Power Conferences. It would make things a little more exciting if The West had their own conference with OSU, Stanford, CalPoly, CalBak, ASU, N.Col, Wyoming, UVU, Cal Baptist, FSU  - The Midwest - Big10, South East and East. Combine the smaller conferences and create some big power leagues/conferences. Of course the NCAA would have a problem with that. 

 

The NCAA doesn't care what the makeup of conferences is.  The Fresno State isn't in the Big 12 because the NCAA made them.  They are in the Big 12 because the Pac-12 wouldn't take them but the Big 12 would. 

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I do agree that the future of wrestling as a growth sport is D-III. But I think D-I is mostly here to stay.  Some years we'll gain a team or two, some years we'll lose a team or two.  Some years, like this one, there will be some of both.  But as a whole the number of teams is fairly stable and has been for a while. 

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I do agree that the future of wrestling as a growth sport is D-III. But I think D-I is mostly here to stay. Some years we'll gain a team or two, some years we'll lose a team or two. Some years, like this one, there will be some of both. But as a whole the number of teams is fairly stable and has been for a while.

The problem with the growth in d3 is that it is almost exclusively at places that are desperate for students and are adding to get tuition. I agree it’s better than nothing, but it’s almost as if they’re leeching off of wrestlers to get tuition money. We need growth in places where somebody might actually want to attend if not for wrestling. That’s why I see the addition of Fresno State as better than 20 of these d3 adds.

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Title IX does play a part in cuts to wrestling programs.  But what we are seeing now is the economic crunch of college athletics.  If we focus on the scholarship numbers we are fooling ourselves.  The primary dollar amount costs are in running these programs.  Eastern Michigan is cutting 5 sports (swimming and diving are two different sports) because of the economic crisis in higher education.  In order to prevent our sport from being dropped we must support our local program.  Whether we are able to attend every meet or not, we need to be buying season tickets.  We need to be making donations.  This is how the revenue generating sports stay in business.  Very few athletic departments operate in the black, but we cannot be one of the non-revenue sports that is viewed as operating deeply in the red.

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The problem with the growth in d3 is that it is almost exclusively at places that are desperate for students and are adding to get tuition. I agree it’s better than nothing, but it’s almost as if they’re leeching off of wrestlers to get tuition money. We need growth in places where somebody might actually want to attend if not for wrestling. That’s why I see the addition of Fresno State as better than 20 of these d3 adds.

 

I work at one of those so called "desperate" places you're describing here. Except that we're not so desperate when you see that our undergraduate enrollment of nearly 3,000 students includes all of just less than 30 wrestlers. While their numbers are great for admission, you have to be kidding yourself to think that kids come to most of those small colleges and universities just for wrestling. Our students attend our college because of its academic reputation, its size and the networking opportunities post-graduation my colleagues have worked hard to build, just as most other students do at almost every single other institution of higher education across the country.

 

Wrestling recruiting in D3 is just like it is at any other college or university across the country, with the exception of places like the B1G, Ivies and maybe University of Chicago, Northwestern and Stanford. It's all about fit. If it weren't for wrestling, does Bo Nickal consider Penn State? Does Zahid Valencia consider ASU? Does Nick Suriano attend Rutgers? I work in admissions, so I have these same conversations every single day I am at work, whether the student is an athlete, wants to play the oboe and major in music performance, desires to major in education, is in a pre-professional program studying biology or physics or is a military veteran. Wrestling isn't boosting anyone's numbers the way you make it sound here. 95-plus percent of students on campus either don't know about or don't care that there is a collegiate wrestling program at their schools. It's a fallacy to think otherwise.  

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I work at one of those so called "desperate" places you're describing here. Except that we're not so desperate when you see that our undergraduate enrollment of nearly 3,000 students includes all of just less than 30 wrestlers. While their numbers are great for admission, you have to be kidding yourself to think that kids come to most of those small colleges and universities just for wrestling. Our students attend our college because of its academic reputation, its size and the networking opportunities post-graduation my colleagues have worked hard to build, just as most other students do at almost every single other institution of higher education across the country.

 

Wrestling recruiting in D3 is just like it is at any other college or university across the country, with the exception of places like the B1G, Ivies and maybe University of Chicago, Northwestern and Stanford. It's all about fit. If it weren't for wrestling, does Bo Nickal consider Penn State? Does Zahid Valencia consider ASU? Does Nick Suriano attend Rutgers? I work in admissions, so I have these same conversations every single day I am at work, whether the student is an athlete, wants to play the oboe and major in music performance, desires to major in education, is in a pre-professional program studying biology or physics or is a military veteran. Wrestling isn't boosting anyone's numbers the way you make it sound here. 95-plus percent of students on campus either don't know about or don't care that there is a collegiate wrestling program at their schools. It's a fallacy to think otherwise.

30*40K more than pays for the cost of the team and then some of these are students that would not have otherwise attended. I’m sure others are recruited and then quit the team. Out of the recent wave of D3 adds, how many are at places where admission is moderately competitive? My point is if the future of the sport is going away from low cost state universities to high cost (generally lower quality) private schools, that is a bad thing. Of the recent wave of D3 adds, most are at enrollment driven colleges.

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Title IX does play a part in cuts to wrestling programs.  But what we are seeing now is the economic crunch of college athletics.  If we focus on the scholarship numbers we are fooling ourselves.  The primary dollar amount costs are in running these programs.  Eastern Michigan is cutting 5 sports (swimming and diving are two different sports) because of the economic crisis in higher education.  In order to prevent our sport from being dropped we must support our local program.  Whether we are able to attend every meet or not, we need to be buying season tickets.  We need to be making donations.  This is how the revenue generating sports stay in business.  Very few athletic departments operate in the black, but we cannot be one of the non-revenue sports that is viewed as operating deeply in the red.

Thank you!  Title IX hasn't been the culprit responsible for program cuts for decades.  Schools cut wresting to save money or to redirect it into football.  If wrestling was a priority, every school could have it.  Look at the Big 10.  Every school as wrestling.  Does Title IX not apply to them?  Of court it does, but they choose to support wrestling. 

 

The only thing the NCAA could do to help non-revenue men's sports would be to make D1 status require 24 sports, instead of 14 or whatever is it now, and include a certain number of non-revenue men's sports that are required.  Yes, the NCAA could do this, but don't hold your breathe. 

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I think the reason Title IX kills wrestling is not because it specifically mandates numbers, but because it introduces the possibility of a school getting slammed if the numbers of male/female athletes are too unbalanced. Most universities are horrified at the prospect of getting hammered due to Title IX.

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I think the reason Title IX kills wrestling is not because it specifically mandates numbers, but because it introduces the possibility of a school getting slammed if the numbers of male/female athletes are too unbalanced. Most universities are horrified at the prospect of getting hammered due to Title IX.

I'm sure all schools very much want to avoid Title IX sanctions.  But to say Title IX is the reason wrestling is being dropped just isn't factually correct anymore and hasn't been for quite some time.   I get  the feeling that the majority of schools would just as soon sponsor football and men's hoops and cut all other sports.  That's the direction we're heading.

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30*40K more than pays for the cost of the team and then some of these are students that would not have otherwise attended. I’m sure others are recruited and then quit the team. Out of the recent wave of D3 adds, how many are at places where admission is moderately competitive? My point is if the future of the sport is going away from low cost state universities to high cost (generally lower quality) private schools, that is a bad thing. Of the recent wave of D3 adds, most are at enrollment driven colleges.

You do realize that private institutions don’t take tuition dollars from wrestlers and put it straight towards said teams, right? Because they are not receiving public funding via tax dollars to assist in supplementing tuition costs, the tuition dollars make up those costs that state schools take for granted.

 

These same student wrestlers also don’t look at thousands of other schools because they don’t have wrestling or their majors. That point your trying to make holds little to no water.

 

“Low cost state universities” are not as low cost as they used to be. Yes, they continue to be less expensive than small, private institutions that do not receive monies and securities, but that does not make the small schools “lower quality,” as you state.

 

I cannot and would never speak for other academic institutions.

 

So what is your solution? If Division 1 institutions aren’t falling over one another to add the sport, would you prefer no growth at all? If you have a better, feasible plan, by all means share it.

 

 

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You do realize that private institutions don’t take tuition dollars from wrestlers and put it straight towards said teams, right? Because they are not receiving public funding via tax dollars to assist in supplementing tuition costs, the tuition dollars make up those costs that state schools take for granted.

 

These same student wrestlers also don’t look at thousands of other schools because they don’t have wrestling or their majors. That point your trying to make holds little to no water.

 

“Low cost state universities” are not as low cost as they used to be. Yes, they continue to be less expensive than small, private institutions that do not receive monies and securities, but that does not make the small schools “lower quality,” as you state.

 

I cannot and would never speak for other academic institutions.

 

So what is your solution? If Division 1 institutions aren’t falling over one another to add the sport, would you prefer no growth at all? If you have a better, feasible plan, by all means share it.

 

 

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The bottom line is that not all schools are the same in terms of quality and a lot of small, private, schools are complete rip-offs if you compare education vs price. You’re better off going to a community college than most of these places. And if it’s not clear, I’m not talking about places like Wesleyan, Williams, etc. I mean places driving up student debt and not offering much in return.

 

I already said it is better than nothing. I just don’t think it’s to be celebrated, and hopefully it’s not the future of the sport. My solution is to grow D1 through increasing TV revenue and attendance. Emphasizing duals over tournaments and making rules viewer/fan friendly. That may help more programs like Fresno. For D3, alumni need to stay connected with their programs and support them financially.

Edited by Billyhoyle

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The bottom line is that not all schools are the same in terms of quality and a lot of small, private, schools are complete rip-offs if you compare education vs price. You’re better off going to a community college than most of these places. And if it’s not clear, I’m not talking about places like Wesleyan, Williams, etc. I mean places driving up student debt and not offering much in return.

I already said it is better than nothing. I just don’t think it’s to be celebrated, and hopefully it’s not the future of the sport. My solution is to grow D1 through increasing TV revenue and attendance. Emphasizing duals over tournaments and making rules viewer/fan friendly. That may help more programs like Fresno. For D3, alumni need to stay connected with their programs and support them financially.

Any school adding wrestling should be celebrated regardless of level and tuition cost. Bottomline. More schools with wrestling = Good.

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