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World Cup Takaways - USA

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I think many people get too excited about the results of these world cup matches or beat the streets or even Yarygin, but they are not really indicative of the worlds. Those are mostly scouting opportunities for worlds/olympics so looking impressive there does not mean much. Worlds is a different thing. 

 

Last year's worlds, post-Olympic year, Russia shows up without Ramonov (gold Rio), without Geduev (silver Rio), without Makhov, without Bekbulatov (who teched the world champ at that weight at the Euros), with Sadulaev being off the entire year and going up in a massive weight jump for fun, with few guys for whom this was first worlds....and they got 2nd place by 1 point....crazy...At the same time, U.S. showed up with their best team and won virtually all toss-up matches. 

 

Does anyone seriously think this repeats? not anytime soon. 

 

sgallan, you didn't get what I was saying may be. I said what happened to JB vs. Geduev is what I predict will  happen to Snyder next time he wrestles Sadulaev.  Wait and see :)

 

btw, I know Snyder improves and he is a great wrestler, but somehow vs. the top Russians he is not "wow": 5:5 with Gadisov, 6:5 with 15-20 pounds smaller Sadulaev, 2:5 loss to Gatsalov in his Olympic year, 0:3 loss to Boltukaev in his Olympic year, not even counting BTS as that is a "friendly" loss to Gatsalov. I would like to see him vs. Sadulaev a couple of more times. btw not sure where Georgi Gogaev is, he crushed Snyder 8:1 at the Junior Words.

 

Is your argument that Russia is better than the US?  Congrats... you've cracked the code.  I didn't realize there was a clairvoyant in our presence.  

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I think many people get too excited about the results of these world cup matches or beat the streets or even Yarygin, but they are not really indicative of the worlds. Those are mostly scouting opportunities for worlds/olympics so looking impressive there does not mean much. Worlds is a different thing. 

 

Last year's worlds, post-Olympic year, Russia shows up without Ramonov (gold Rio), without Geduev (silver Rio), without Makhov, without Bekbulatov (who teched the world champ at that weight at the Euros), with Sadulaev being off the entire year and going up in a massive weight jump for fun, with few guys for whom this was first worlds....and they got 2nd place by 1 point....crazy...At the same time, U.S. showed up with their best team and won virtually all toss-up matches. 

 

Does anyone seriously think this repeats? not anytime soon. 

 

sgallan, you didn't get what I was saying may be. I said what happened to JB vs. Geduev is what I predict will  happen to Snyder next time he wrestles Sadulaev.  Wait and see :)

 

btw, I know Snyder improves and he is a great wrestler, but somehow vs. the top Russians he is not "wow": 5:5 with Gadisov, 6:5 with 15-20 pounds smaller Sadulaev, 2:5 loss to Gatsalov in his Olympic year, 0:3 loss to Boltukaev in his Olympic year, not even counting BTS as that is a "friendly" loss to Gatsalov. I would like to see him vs. Sadulaev a couple of more times. btw not sure where Georgi Gogaev is, he crushed Snyder 8:1 at the Junior Words.

To be clear, things like world cup and Yarygin don't count and only worlds counts when USA beats Russia in those events, but when Kyle Snyder wrestles and loses at Yarygin or World Cup but wins at Worlds those matches suddenly count and Snyder isn't 'wow' against Russia?  I just want to be clear on which times to ignore results.  It seems the easy way to remember is any time an American wins there is a reason it doesn't count.  

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We are discussing the individual match outcomes and what that means for worlds, not who won the World Cup title

My apologies, I thought the name of the thread was World Cup Takeaways. That was my takeaway.

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I think many people get too excited about the results of these world cup matches or beat the streets or even Yarygin, but they are not really indicative of the worlds. Those are mostly scouting opportunities for worlds/olympics so looking impressive there does not mean much. Worlds is a different thing.

 

Last year's worlds, post-Olympic year, Russia shows up without Ramonov (gold Rio), without Geduev (silver Rio), without Makhov, without Bekbulatov (who teched the world champ at that weight at the Euros), with Sadulaev being off the entire year and going up in a massive weight jump for fun, with few guys for whom this was first worlds....and they got 2nd place by 1 point....crazy...At the same time, U.S. showed up with their best team and won virtually all toss-up matches.

 

Does anyone seriously think this repeats? not anytime soon.

 

sgallan, you didn't get what I was saying may be. I said what happened to JB vs. Geduev is what I predict will happen to Snyder next time he wrestles Sadulaev. Wait and see :)

 

btw, I know Snyder improves and he is a great wrestler, but somehow vs. the top Russians he is not "wow": 5:5 with Gadisov, 6:5 with 15-20 pounds smaller Sadulaev, 2:5 loss to Gatsalov in his Olympic year, 0:3 loss to Boltukaev in his Olympic year, not even counting BTS as that is a "friendly" loss to Gatsalov. I would like to see him vs. Sadulaev a couple of more times. btw not sure where Georgi Gogaev is, he crushed Snyder 8:1 at the Junior Words.

Hey, I think you have found your niche, we get to ridicule you regarding Snyder, like we ridicule Retired Poster on Pico. #lifegoals being ridiculed across the board. Check.

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My takeaway:

 

I'll root for whoever wins the Final X series and represents Team USA at 2018 Worlds.

 

But for fun, if I had to pick the team right now I'd go with:

 

57 The Little Sadulaev

61 Fix

65 Winner of Logan/Zain/Yianni

70 Winner of Green/Molinaro/Nolf

74 The Champ

79 Kid Dynamite

86 Magicman

92 J'den

97 Captain America

125 Gable

Edited by 2td3nf

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wow you are delusional regarding James Green

 

How is his so close to world gold? He's essentially the wrestling equivalent of those boxers who crush cans. When he hits a good opponent he completely falls apart.

 

2015 - Lost to Yazdani at 70kg 9-4. Yazdani himself got handled by Gadzhiamagomedmov in the finals 10-3.

 

2016 - Lost to Kurbanov who lost to Hosseinkhani for bronze. Hosseinkhani himself was destroyed by Kurbanaliev 8-0, who went on to win gold

 

2017 - Made the finals, pretty much got embarrassed by Chamizo.

 

The weight would have to be completely empty of all top talent for Green to win gold based on his past 3 years.

You could look at it that way

 

Or you could say he got silver last year and the guy he lost to is moving up

 

Yazdani is also obviously gone. Also saying that loss was bad because Yazdani got a silver is silly. We all know how good Yazdani is. He was on that same path in 2015, just not quite as refined.

 

I’m not picking JG for gold, but with the right draw he could win it all.

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My takeaway:

 

I'll root for whoever wins the Final X series and represents Team USA at 2018 Worlds.

 

But for fun, if I had to pick the team right now I'd go with:

 

57 The Little Sadulaev

61 Fix

65 Winner of Logan/Zain/Yianni

70 Winner of Green/Molinaro/Nolf

74 The Champ

79 Kid Dynamite

86 Magicman

92 J'den

97 Captain America

125 Gable

Nolf I think is out due to injury. I do think he has it in him to make the team.

 

Fix seems small for 61. He has a much better shot at 57 I think, although I’d prefer Lee there. Can’t go wrong with any of the top 3. It is weird for us to be deep at a lower weight

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Nolf I think is out due to injury. I do think he has it in him to make the team.

 

Fix seems small for 61. He has a much better shot at 57 I think, although I’d prefer Lee there. Can’t go wrong with any of the top 3. It is weird for us to be deep at a lower weight

 

Nolf is out? The knee still? Is Yianni injured also?

 

Back to Fix, and I posted this a few months ago and I still might be way off, but if Fix's natural weight is in the 140's, there is no doubt in my mind he can compete and be very successful at 61. Let the kid eat and let's have Lee and Fix in the lineup together. 

 

(Again, I take this back if Fix is walking around in low 130's - I don't know his true weight.)

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Nolf is out? The knee still? Is Yianni injured also?

 

Back to Fix, and I posted this a few months ago and I still might be way off, but if Fix's natural weight is in the 140's, there is no doubt in my mind he can compete and be very successful at 61. Let the kid eat and let's have Lee and Fix in the lineup together. 

 

(Again, I take this back if Fix is walking around in low 130's - I don't know his true weight.)

I heard that about Nolf and Yianni somewhere, but I don't recall where. I could be wrong. 

 

Fix walks in the 130s. He really isn't that big of a guy, unless he has grown a lot recently. he wrestled in high school at 132. He could've easily won state at higher weights, so it suggests he wasn't cutting all that much, although his team also had a state champ at 138,145 and 152, so maybe that's why he stayed down.

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My gut (totally unfounded) tells me Lee goes juniors another year to not have to clash with Gilman. 

 

Wow. I hope that's not the case but I can sort of see that happening. Really hope not.

 

USA is going to need their best guy at 57 if they're serious about defending the team title. I'll go a step further and say that Lee would sweep Gilman if he makes it to the Final X finals.

 

Alwayswrestling, WildTurkey and others, your thoughts?

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If Lee is confident that he can make the WT and beat Gilman, I can't imagine he will go Juniors again. That doesn't seem like his style. He may want to take the summer off to hit the weights, work on conditioning and further rehab that knee, though.

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I think many people get too excited about the results of these world cup matches or beat the streets or even Yarygin, but they are not really indicative of the worlds. Those are mostly scouting opportunities for worlds/olympics so looking impressive there does not mean much. Worlds is a different thing. 

 

Last year's worlds, post-Olympic year, Russia shows up without Ramonov (gold Rio), without Geduev (silver Rio), without Makhov, without Bekbulatov (who teched the world champ at that weight at the Euros), with Sadulaev being off the entire year and going up in a massive weight jump for fun, with few guys for whom this was first worlds....and they got 2nd place by 1 point....crazy...At the same time, U.S. showed up with their best team and won virtually all toss-up matches. 

 

Hopefully the UWW's ranking system will take care of some of this, assuming that wrestlers and their national teams care about seeding. Maybe there would be even fewer "scouting tournaments" if the UWW extended the rankings to place the top 4 or 6 seeds at Worlds. But it did seem like we were being trolled in the past with success in early, lesser tournaments and then facing the "real" competition at the World Championships.

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Well if Lee is healthy, and wants to test the waters at 57, I believe we see him at the Open. I think he goes there to test himself against Fix.

Assuming he isn’t rehabbing any injuries, I imagine he will show up to the open. Even if he doesn’t plan on going seniors for trials.

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I don't think you're wrong. I'm a huge fan of J'den's, and I know he has the desire to win, and the ability to beat just about anyone in the world, but he seems to lack the killer instinct he needs to pull out the close matches. In all of his international losses, I've felt he would have won if they wrestled again an hour later. If he figures it out, he's a gold medal contender.

He needs to spend some time with Mark Schultz on getting meaner. Say what you want about Mark - he has the killer instinct and it served him well on the mat.

John Smith and Dan Gable would both be good for J'den to work with as they had it as well. Smith combined excellent technique with a killer's attitude and the looks of an accountant. No matter how much he won some still overlooked him because he just did not look like a killer.

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If thats the reason, that would be unfortunate.

I am pretty sure Lee knows where he stands with Gilman. Either way what is wrong with another year in juniors? He is still basically just past being a kid. Has the potential of a long career, it isn't an Olympic year. What is the hurry? Yeah I'd like to see him at Seniors, but if not, I get it.

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I am pretty sure Lee knows where he stands with Gilman. Either way what is wrong with another year in juniors? He is still basically just past being a kid. Has the potential of a long career, it isn't an Olympic year. What is the hurry? Yeah I'd like to see him at Seniors, but if not, I get it.

That's all true and if Lee needs to rest, rehab, or whatever and doesn't want to wrestle on the senior level yet, no complaints here.

 

But the Little Sadulaev did qualify for seniors already. :D

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That's all true and if Lee needs to rest, rehab, or whatever and doesn't want to wrestle on the senior level yet, no complaints here.

 

But the Little Sadulaev did qualify for seniors already. :D

True, A possible Snyder like progression, loses to people not actually in his league, in retrospect, and then within a few weeks, and there it is.

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spladle, yes, that is roughly my predictions for U.S. at this year's worlds.

 

pamela, indeed, that was one of my points, intermediate results are mostly that...intermediate. I don't even think the Euro's this month count for Russia too much, its mostly seen as testing a line-up. It'd be interesting if UWW implements 'grand prix' like system like it exists in other Olympic sports. This way seeding is determined according to those points. Then, teams have to take the intermediate competitions more seriously. 

 

sgallan, relax :), we are free to make predictions...and my prediction is that Snyder loses to Sad if they wrestle again.

Edited by wfan24

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I think some people are down on Snyder simply based on is underwhelming results in folkstyle, against much heavier competition (which has 0 correlation) but as far as best at 97kg (and below obviously) I wouldn't predict anyone coming up in weight or currently at his weight able to deal with his physicality. I've learned not to doubt the guy, and if he and Sad wrestle again, I'd pick Snyder by 3 or 4 points .

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

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