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#41 Pinnum

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 06:41 AM

His point is clearly that nobody is lining up to go to NAIA schools like they are Cornell (or many other places in D1 or D3). I would have absolutely considered attending the university that I attended if they didn’t offer wrestling.


And my point is that the sport attracts prospective students that otherwise wouldn't have been interested in attending the school.

You can't say 'if I weren't who I am with the interests I have, would I then have attended this school' because you don't know how you would have valued things if you had a different focus of set of values.

Sure, it is possible you didn't value the wrestling program and would have gone to school either way. It is possible that you only had one school you were interested in and were relieved to find out that they happened to have a wrestling team. Those possibilities do exist and they do happen. However they are not the norm and students are not choosing Cornell and then finding out that they have a wrestling program and joining the team.
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#42 Billyhoyle

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 05:52 PM

And my point is that the sport attracts prospective students that otherwise wouldn't have been interested in attending the school.

You can't say 'if I weren't who I am with the interests I have, would I then have attended this school' because you don't know how you would have valued things if you had a different focus of set of values.

Sure, it is possible you didn't value the wrestling program and would have gone to school either way. It is possible that you only had one school you were interested in and were relieved to find out that they happened to have a wrestling team. Those possibilities do exist and they do happen. However they are not the norm and students are not choosing Cornell and then finding out that they have a wrestling program and joining the team.

When you are recruited to compete in D3, schools that offer wrestling are often the best ones that you can get into because getting recruited helps with the admissions process. People are going to these schools not because there is wrestling but because these are good schools that also have wrestling teams.  A large group of D3 recruits quit very shortly after arriving on campus.  These students don't transfer out to a different school that offers wrestling because the reason they chose the school was not mainly based on wrestling.  The whole point of D3 is that athletics are secondary to academics: that is why there are supposed to be no athletic scholarships.  

 

People compete in D3 because they enjoy competition and like the sport.  However, if a NESCAC school were to cut wrestling, I doubt you would see all of the athletes transfer (like you do in D1).  You would see them stay at the school, which they chose for academics, and compete as a club team (or not compete). 

 

Here is my slightly controversial take on some D3 and NAIA programs: If the only reason that a University has a team is to attract students to pay partial or full tuition, maybe that University isn't worth attending. Why can't they get students otherwise? 


Edited by Billyhoyle, 16 April 2018 - 05:52 PM.


#43 jchapman

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 12:17 AM

^^^^^^^ 100% agree

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#44 Coach_J

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 12:21 AM

Have coached in all divisions, and I think the great Tom Jarman (former coach at B10 Northwestern U. and NAIA and later D-III Manchester College) summed it up best:  "When you hand out the work out gear at the small school, a number of kids ask, 'Do I get to keep this?'"
 


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#45 Pinnum

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 02:40 AM

Here is my slightly controversial take on some D3 and NAIA programs: If the only reason that a University has a team is to attract students to pay partial or full tuition, maybe that University isn't worth attending. Why can't they get students otherwise?


Because they aren't directly subsidized by the taxpayers. This is why they need to offer benefits that separate them from the publicly funded schools. You see schools adding that are quality schools, but compete with the regional public schools (also fine schools) for students.

It isn't that they aren't quality schools.
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#46 Tofurky

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 11:58 AM

When you are recruited to compete in D3, schools that offer wrestling are often the best ones that you can get into because getting recruited helps with the admissions process.

 

Being recruited to a D3 is absolutely no guarantee of admission. Like any other student, if you do not meet the minimum criteria for admission, then you find another college or university to attend. Most every and any college you find isn't going to admit a kid who can barely keep up in high school or community college, as they probably won't be around long enough to make a difference. Then you have to chase down that tuition money? Thanks, but nah.

 

People are going to these schools not because there is wrestling but because these are good schools that also have wrestling teams. 

 

For most students, at best it's a combination of having a wrestling program and the fact that it's a solid fit academically. At worst, it's because they have wrestling and they want to continue to compete. There certainly are exceptions to the rule, but they are just that.

 

You're talking about teenage boys here. They're not thinking about financials and many times the high school and club coaches they had talked their parents into thinking they're going to waltz to a D3 title. They're thinking about the t-shirt they'll get that says they were a college wrestler somewhere; they'll develop a touch of to full-blown cauliflower ear because they couldn't be bothered to wear headgear; and the chance to say that they had X record on the college level.

 

A large group of D3 recruits quit very shortly after arriving on campus.  These students don't transfer out to a different school that offers wrestling because the reason they chose the school was not mainly based on wrestling. 

 

Where's your data on this? It all depends on the program, the cost of the education and what their options might be at that time. Most of those guys went to X school because of wrestling. The institution's academic reputation was the cherry on top.

 

The whole point of D3 is that athletics are secondary to academics: that is why there are supposed to be no athletic scholarships.

 

So far, this is the only point you've made that is 100% accurate on not merely conjecture.

 

People compete in D3 because they enjoy competition and like the sport.  However, if a NESCAC school were to cut wrestling, I doubt you would see all of the athletes transfer (like you do in D1).  You would see them stay at the school, which they chose for academics, and compete as a club team (or not compete).

 

More conjecture; have you spoken with every kid in D3?

 

As to what would happen with the NESCAC schools, I don't believe that any of us could say with 100% assurance.

 

Here is my slightly controversial take on some D3 and NAIA programs: If the only reason that a University has a team is to attract students to pay partial or full tuition, maybe that University isn't worth attending. Why can't they get students otherwise? 

 

How many D3 programs and NAIA programs can you cite that have stated that their goal is to boost enrollment numbers by adding wrestling?

 

Institutions of higher education offer sports because their students want them or they see a trend in a certain sport. They're not stupid people; they do their research. If they can realistically/responsibly offer that opportunity, then it's a win-win for the student-athlete and the institution. And, like any other program, if they manage a few All-Americans out of it in the process, that will help their school's image spread.

 

You're usually a really solid poster, billyhoyle. For some reason, you appear to be going out of your way to be a real @$$#0!* here, and I cannot figure out why.



#47 Swayz

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:42 PM

Come on Swayz. You must live a sheltered life if you believe this. The number of regular students dwarf the number of student athletes by a huge number.

 

Ok let me restate....Most of the people on college athletic teams, wouldn't be in college if it weren't for athletics. 



#48 Swayz

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:44 PM

Have coached in all divisions, and I think the great Tom Jarman (former coach at B10 Northwestern U. and NAIA and later D-III Manchester College) summed it up best:  "When you hand out the work out gear at the small school, a number of kids ask, 'Do I get to keep this?'"
 

 

I worked at a school where you got your state flag and name on the back of your singlet...but if you quit the team...you never got that singlet, and you actually were expected to return half your crap because should you do something stupid in public, we didn't want to be the walking poster for you being a derelict. 



#49 Billyhoyle

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 01:38 PM

Being recruited to a D3 is absolutely no guarantee of admission. Like any other student, if you do not meet the minimum criteria for admission, then you find another college or university to attend. Most every and any college you find isn't going to admit a kid who can barely keep up in high school or community college, as they probably won't be around long enough to make a difference. Then you have to chase down that tuition money? Thanks, but nah.

 

 

For most students, at best it's a combination of having a wrestling program and the fact that it's a solid fit academically. At worst, it's because they have wrestling and they want to continue to compete. There certainly are exceptions to the rule, but they are just that.

 

You're talking about teenage boys here. They're not thinking about financials and many times the high school and club coaches they had talked their parents into thinking they're going to waltz to a D3 title. They're thinking about the t-shirt they'll get that says they were a college wrestler somewhere; they'll develop a touch of to full-blown cauliflower ear because they couldn't be bothered to wear headgear; and the chance to say that they had X record on the college level.

 

 

Where's your data on this? It all depends on the program, the cost of the education and what their options might be at that time. Most of those guys went to X school because of wrestling. The institution's academic reputation was the cherry on top.

 

 

So far, this is the only point you've made that is 100% accurate on not merely conjecture.

 

 

More conjecture; have you spoken with every kid in D3?

 

As to what would happen with the NESCAC schools, I don't believe that any of us could say with 100% assurance.

 

 

How many D3 programs and NAIA programs can you cite that have stated that their goal is to boost enrollment numbers by adding wrestling?

 

Institutions of higher education offer sports because their students want them or they see a trend in a certain sport. They're not stupid people; they do their research. If they can realistically/responsibly offer that opportunity, then it's a win-win for the student-athlete and the institution. And, like any other program, if they manage a few All-Americans out of it in the process, that will help their school's image spread.

 

You're usually a really solid poster, billyhoyle. For some reason, you appear to be going out of your way to be a real @$$#0!* here, and I cannot figure out why.

These are my opinions and are backed by my experiences having wrestled D3, knowing many others who did, and staying involved (indirectly). I'm not sure what your experience is with the division, but the point of a forum is to provide opinions, and that is what I always do.  

 

1.  Being recruited D3 significantly helps with admission, although the degree to which it does will vary on the school. I never said it guarantees admission. The only school that had zero impact from being recruited was MIT, which now no longer has a program. My point is valid that most of the time when you are recruited D3, the best school that you get into academically is generally one that is recruiting you.  If you apply to two schools of equal academic standing (schools A and B), and you are recruited to school A, you are likely to get into neither, only school A, or both schools A and B.  It won't happen that you only get into school B.  

 

2. Most athletes in D3 aren't picking a college based off of wrestling. It's nonsensical to do so given that it is a nonscholarship division. Will it help somebody decide on school A over school B?  Yes, it does.  But that is not going to be the primary reason to attend- not by a long shot. This is true for the majority in D3 (there are exceptions like Augsburg Wartburg).  

 

3. I'm not citing any in particular, but a number of posters on this forum say boosting enrollment is the reason for growth in NAIA/D3.  They add the sport and use the recruiting process to help with enrollment.  If that's not true, then it is news to me, and a very good thing. 

 

4. In terms of the numbers that quit. Check out the press releases from D3 schools and see the average size of the recruiting classes.  Multiply that by 4 and then look at the roster size.  The thing with D3 is that there are many reasons to quit and the only thing that would keep you going is that you like the sport/the people on your team. It's not close to as tough as D1, but still a lot more brutal than HS wrestling..The weight cutting/injuries/ringworm/etc add up.  



#50 Tofurky

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 08:23 AM

These are my opinions and are backed by my experiences having wrestled D3, knowing many others who did, and staying involved (indirectly). I'm not sure what your experience is with the division, but the point of a forum is to provide opinions, and that is what I always do.  

 

1.  Being recruited D3 significantly helps with admission, although the degree to which it does will vary on the school. I never said it guarantees admission. The only school that had zero impact from being recruited was MIT, which now no longer has a program. My point is valid that most of the time when you are recruited D3, the best school that you get into academically is generally one that is recruiting you.  If you apply to two schools of equal academic standing (schools A and B), and you are recruited to school A, you are likely to get into neither, only school A, or both schools A and B.  It won't happen that you only get into school B.  

 

2. Most athletes in D3 aren't picking a college based off of wrestling. It's nonsensical to do so given that it is a nonscholarship division. Will it help somebody decide on school A over school B?  Yes, it does.  But that is not going to be the primary reason to attend- not by a long shot. This is true for the majority in D3 (there are exceptions like Augsburg Wartburg).  

 

3. I'm not citing any in particular, but a number of posters on this forum say boosting enrollment is the reason for growth in NAIA/D3.  They add the sport and use the recruiting process to help with enrollment.  If that's not true, then it is news to me, and a very good thing. 

 

4. In terms of the numbers that quit. Check out the press releases from D3 schools and see the average size of the recruiting classes.  Multiply that by 4 and then look at the roster size.  The thing with D3 is that there are many reasons to quit and the only thing that would keep you going is that you like the sport/the people on your team. It's not close to as tough as D1, but still a lot more brutal than HS wrestling..The weight cutting/injuries/ringworm/etc add up.  

 

I coach D3 and work in admissions for the same school where I coach. I'm quite familiar with it from the "business" end of things.

 

You are correct that you are providing your opinion here. However, you may want to be more exact and use the term conjecture.



#51 Pinnum

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 09:07 AM

I worked at a school where you got your state flag and name on the back of your singlet...but if you quit the team...you never got that singlet, and you actually were expected to return half your crap because should you do something stupid in public, we didn't want to be the walking poster for you being a derelict.


That's reasonable.

Would the athlete even retain the singlet during the season? Wouldn't it be given to them for events and be collected following the event to be washed? Or did the athletes have to do their own athletic related laundry?
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#52 Coach_J

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 01:17 AM

That's reasonable.

Would the athlete even retain the singlet during the season? Wouldn't it be given to them for events and be collected following the event to be washed? Or did the athletes have to do their own athletic related laundry?

In college, we were issued a singlet after we made the team for our first competition and turned it in at the end of the year.  They had athletic staff that washed our gear for us.  When I coached, we were able to have a work study position for laundry filled by a team member--very coveted job.


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#53 Swayz

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 02:54 PM

That's reasonable.

Would the athlete even retain the singlet during the season? Wouldn't it be given to them for events and be collected following the event to be washed? Or did the athletes have to do their own athletic related laundry?

 

 

We did laundry after every weight lifting, conditioning, wrestling,  or competitive event and it was then put in their lockers.    Singlets were gathered up after tournaments, and not given back until they competed again.   






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