Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
gobraves101905

How Can ASU Compete?

Recommended Posts

This years recruiting class is ONE. Last years class was thin at the top. Outside of the original class, they have not gotten top talent. Top talent wins titles. What are the reasons for this? Is it money? Location?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe a lot of their money is tied up.  It is my understanding that they went after the current top class hard and presented pretty good offers.  With only 9.9 there isn't a lot to spread around if you are giving heavy scholarships. I'm not sure there are many 'full rides' if any, but there s some guys with some pretty good scholarships for wrestling if my understanding is correct.  This is based on some known information from deep inside the organization.  I believe the idea was to go after big recruits and get up into the top 10.  Once you hit that group you can spread scholarships out a little more.  I am sure there are many other factors as well, but I am guessing money being tied up has quite a bit to do with it.  For whatever it is worth.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why is wrestling limited to 9.9 when football and basketball have such heavy allocations. I never read or understood the rationale.

Beggars cannot be choosey?

 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why are athletic scholarships an issue for ASU.... you dont have to be a rocket science to get in... you would think they can get most of their recruits in on academic scholarships

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep reading this board and you will understand why....

why are athletic scholarships an issue for ASU.... you dont have to be a rocket science to get in... you would think they can get most of their recruits in on academic scholarships

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Big difference between revenue and profit. Football produces SIGNIFICANT revenue at most schools. Remove football and you remove a major revenue stream. Doesn't mean that the athletic department is profitable (revenue - expenses).

 

TV deals are what is driving vast amount of the cash flow in D1 sports. Since joining the Big 12, WVU is bringing in >$30 million more than they did when they were in the Big East solely from the Big 12 TV deal. That's how you can afford to pull a guy like Flynn and provide the resources. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we quit drinking the kool-aid about "revenue" sports?  Your bigtime D-I college football program is paying a head coach in the range of 3-8 million, OC and DC at least a million each, 85 scholarships at whatever the yearly price of school (say around $20,000), cost of plane travel, top hotels and meals both at home and on the road, an army of assistants, trainers, grad assistants, statisticians, SID team, tutors, facilities and grounds staff, weight room coaches and staff, etc.  With such mammoth expenses, you better make a bowl game and share TV revenue--most do it just trying to come close to breaking even. As mentioned above, there is a vast difference between revenue and profit.   http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2014/dec/22/jim-moran/moran-says-only-20-colleges-make-profit-sports/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why is wrestling limited to 9.9 when football and basketball have such heavy allocations. I never read or understood the rationale.

Penn State and Iowa would gladly give out 20 scholarships to their wrestling program. But Kent State, Cal Poly, Michigan State, and Maryland would all drop their programs if Penn State and Iowa started giving out 20 scholarships.

 

The membership decides the scholarship limits. There are more opportunities for athletes because of the lower number of scholarships.

 

NAIA basketball just lowered their scholarship limit from 11 to 8 in the consolidation of their divisions. They found that despite the limit being 11, very few schools actually offered 11. The average actually being offered was 7. College wrestling is very similar in that regard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we quit drinking the kool-aid about "revenue" sports?  Your bigtime D-I college football program is paying a head coach in the range of 3-8 million, OC and DC at least a million each, 85 scholarships at whatever the yearly price of school (say around $20,000), cost of plane travel, top hotels and meals both at home and on the road, an army of assistants, trainers, grad assistants, statisticians, SID team, tutors, facilities and grounds staff, weight room coaches and staff, etc.  With such mammoth expenses, you better make a bowl game and share TV revenue--most do it just trying to come close to breaking even. As mentioned above, there is a vast difference between revenue and profit.   http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2014/dec/22/jim-moran/moran-says-only-20-colleges-make-profit-sports/

Below is the 20 most profitable football programs from Forbes.  And the money makers are not limited to 20 schools.  Almost every D1a program at least breaks even.  Even small schools like Texas State and marshall break even or do slightly better than break even.  For 2016 the SEC made $37 million per school in TV money to split among it's schools.  The Big 12 and Big 10 made around $30 million per school (though the big 12 doesn't split evenly).  Meanwhile the highest expenses by far in the country for football was Alabama at just over $50 million (and they had $100 million in total revenue and the football program paid for all the other sports).  Just belonging to one of the power conferences gaurantees your football program is well in the black, so that is 60 programs right there.  The ACC and PAC are right around $25 million each.  Then comes the big drop where the AAC gives $6 million per team and the next biggest are in the $3-4 million range.  So if your argument is that the bottom half of D1 is break even or slightly profitable while the power 5 basically print money then you are right.  

 

1. Texas $92 million

2. Tennessee $70 million

3. LSU $58 million

4. Michigan $56 million

5. Notre Dame $54 million

6. Georgia $50 million

6. Ohio State $50 million

8. Oklahoma $48 million

9. Auburn $47 million

10. Alabama $46 million

11. Oregon $40 million

12. Florida State $39 million

13. Arkansas $38 million

13. Washington $38 million 

15. Florida $37 million

15. Texas A&M $37 million

17. Penn State $36 million

18. Michigan State $32 million

19. Southern Cal $29 million

20. South Carolina $28 million 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Below is the 20 most profitable football programs from Forbes.  And the money makers are not limited to 20 schools.  Almost every D1a program at least breaks even.  Even small schools like Texas State and marshall break even or do slightly better than break even.  For 2016 the SEC made $37 million per school in TV money to split among it's schools.  The Big 12 and Big 10 made around $30 million per school (though the big 12 doesn't split evenly).  Meanwhile the highest expenses by far in the country for football was Alabama at just over $50 million (and they had $100 million in total revenue and the football program paid for all the other sports).  Just belonging to one of the power conferences gaurantees your football program is well in the black, so that is 60 programs right there.  The ACC and PAC are right around $25 million each.  Then comes the big drop where the AAC gives $6 million per team and the next biggest are in the $3-4 million range.  So if your argument is that the bottom half of D1 is break even or slightly profitable while the power 5 basically print money then you are right.  

 

1. Texas $92 million

2. Tennessee $70 million

3. LSU $58 million

4. Michigan $56 million

5. Notre Dame $54 million

6. Georgia $50 million

6. Ohio State $50 million

8. Oklahoma $48 million

9. Auburn $47 million

10. Alabama $46 million

11. Oregon $40 million

12. Florida State $39 million

13. Arkansas $38 million

13. Washington $38 million 

15. Florida $37 million

15. Texas A&M $37 million

17. Penn State $36 million

18. Michigan State $32 million

19. Southern Cal $29 million

20. South Carolina $28 million 

No such guarantee.  Until very recently U. of Michigan was in the red in the Big 10 for years even with all the bowl/TV money.  Now #4 on your list, the school is sitting on a $240 million athletic debt.   http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20170226/NEWS/170229865/splitting-audience-could-make-ums-240-million-athletics-debt-a

Edited by Coach_J

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the best thing the ASU wrestling program could do to be competitive is to have the ASU atheletic department invest in their schedule and for the school itself to support their student athletes when they are on the road. They may have to increase their travel budget by double or triple what an east coast or midwest team would spend based on their location and the wrestling belt.

 

I think the Sun Devils need to continue going to Cliff Keen in Vegas and then hit the major tournaments in the midwest and east coasts like the Midlands or Southern Scuffle and at least a dual tournament or two. When they take their road trips they need to hit a dual on the way there, on the way home, or both depending on time of year and location. Northern schools do similar road trips every year with baseball and softball teams traveling across the entire southern border. Given they would be on the road for a lot of the time, they need the support of the academic community meaning accomodations are made for work, papers, and testing; having a tutor or advisor travel with the team; setting up an online schedule part of the season, or even doing some academic things while they are on the road.

 

Perhaps setting up their own college annual event in Tempe or Phoenix is worth exploring. If ASU is going to travel east and pick up duals on their way to tournaments, they get teams to give them a return to participate in their event as a 1 for 1 or a 2 for 1. This would give their fans a big event to support as they would be on the road for the majority of their non PAC 12 schedule. For the athletes, maybe look at using the Sunkist Kids to host a university level freestyle and greco events after the traditional college season is over to contrast their senior tournament, build their brand as a one stop shop, and support their athletes with Olympic aspirations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They can compete.  They placed 10th in the country this year, not long removed from almost losing their program.  They have one of the more recognizable and personable coaches in the country.  They return their entire lineup next year except Trsirtsis.  They have arguably the best wrestler in the country on their team. 

 

Even though their class of 2018 is tiny, Teemer is a stud.  They have 2 class of 2019 commits already in the top 20.  I don't know the money situation, but I would imagine they will have significantly more flexibility with Zeke's original class coming off the books.  Let's see what they put together with the rest of their 2019 class.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the best thing the ASU wrestling program could do to be competitive is to have the ASU atheletic department invest in their schedule and for the school itself to support their student athletes when they are on the road. They may have to increase their travel budget by double or triple what an east coast or midwest team would spend based on their location and the wrestling belt.

 

I think the Sun Devils need to continue going to Cliff Keen in Vegas and then hit the major tournaments in the midwest and east coasts like the Midlands or Southern Scuffle and at least a dual tournament or two. When they take their road trips they need to hit a dual on the way there, on the way home, or both depending on time of year and location. Northern schools do similar road trips every year with baseball and softball teams traveling across the entire southern border. Given they would be on the road for a lot of the time, they need the support of the academic community meaning accomodations are made for work, papers, and testing; having a tutor or advisor travel with the team; setting up an online schedule part of the season, or even doing some academic things while they are on the road.

 

Perhaps setting up their own college annual event in Tempe or Phoenix is worth exploring. If ASU is going to travel east and pick up duals on their way to tournaments, they get teams to give them a return to participate in their event as a 1 for 1 or a 2 for 1. This would give their fans a big event to support as they would be on the road for the majority of their non PAC 12 schedule. For the athletes, maybe look at using the Sunkist Kids to host a university level freestyle and greco events after the traditional college season is over to contrast their senior tournament, build their brand as a one stop shop, and support their athletes with Olympic aspirations.

 

You do realize ASU had one of the toughest schedules in the country last season, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In 2015-16 the following monies were distributed to schools in various conferences:

 

Southeastern Conference:  40.4 million (This did not include football bowl money)

Big 12:  23.4

Big 10:  32.4

Pac 12:  25.1

ACC:  26.4

 

The rich truly do get richer.  This is why I say that if the SEC ever decides to get back into sponsoring wrestling they will climb to the top of the national rankings very quickly.  Money has a way of covering up mistakes made by programs.  If a program is on a tight budget that can't afford to make a mistake and lose one of their top student athletes due to a transfer.  Not only does a school need 9.9 wrestling scholarships but they also must have the following in place:

1.  All student athletes that the coach designates will receive an out of state tuition waiver

2.  Many schools offer minority students between 50% and 100% scholarships that would not count against wrestling money.  This helps the school diversity program.

3.  Some schools will work hard to give student athletes first priority with regards to the other various scholarships that they offer.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In 2015-16 the following monies were distributed to schools in various conferences:

 

Southeastern Conference:  40.4 million (This did not include football bowl money)

Big 12:  23.4

Big 10:  32.4

Pac 12:  25.1

ACC:  26.4

 

The rich truly do get richer.  This is why I say that if the SEC ever decides to get back into sponsoring wrestling they will climb to the top of the national rankings very quickly.  Money has a way of covering up mistakes made by programs.  If a program is on a tight budget that can't afford to make a mistake and lose one of their top student athletes due to a transfer.  Not only does a school need 9.9 wrestling scholarships but they also must have the following in place:

1.  All student athletes that the coach designates will receive an out of state tuition waiver

2.  Many schools offer minority students between 50% and 100% scholarships that would not count against wrestling money.  This helps the school diversity program.

3.  Some schools will work hard to give student athletes first priority with regards to the other various scholarships that they offer.  

The SEC would go nowhere near the top of the rankings in wrestling.  The Capitol One Cup calculates top NCAA athletic programs across all sports and more highly weighs popular sports, and in 2017 the SEC had 1 team in the top 10.  And the one team in the top 10 was Alabama who doesn't make the top 10 without football.  This year they have 2 of the top 30 halfway through the year.  If you looked at the NACDA cup that values every sport the same, then Kentucky and Florida made the top 10 last year but Stanford has been champ of that for over 20 straight years.  The bottom line is the football money is not helping the SEC much in existing non-revenue sports right now, so there is no reason to think it would help in a non-revenue sport where they have no history and no recruiting base.  

 

Wrestling is largely a regional sport and the SEC is in the wrong region to win at anything approaching a high level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are grants of in-state tuition to out-of-state student-athletes common?  Arizona is not fertile recruiting ground, so covering half of tuition as an out-of-state resident is a big ask.  Also, schools attracting kids with high grades (Michigan, Stanford, Cornell, etc.) probably dole out academic scholarships to help with what the wrestling scholarship doesn't cover.  Duke does ok with zero wrestling aid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are grants of in-state tuition to out-of-state student-athletes common?  Arizona is not fertile recruiting ground, so covering half of tuition as an out-of-state resident is a big ask.  Also, schools attracting kids with high grades (Michigan, Stanford, Cornell, etc.) probably dole out academic scholarships to help with what the wrestling scholarship doesn't cover.  Duke does ok with zero wrestling aid.

 

Duke is also one of the best schools in the country. 

 

Another thing to consider is ASU had that massive recruiting class 3 years ago and aside from Zahid, they haven't really performed as expected. Benick left. Anthony has been a flop thus far. Shields got an AA this year but placed below seed. And Maruca didn't crack the line up behind Tsirtsis. Then you have guys like Tanner Hall who was ranked as high as 3-4 this year and went 2-2 @ NCAAs, Naser went 2 and out, and Millhof went 2-2 despite AAing his last trip to the tournament. I know that core group is only RS sophomores but I don't think anyone would have thought that Benick, Anthony, Kramer, and Maruca would have 1 AA between them to this point. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×