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stonerd7

Oregon State Fiasco

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i only know about this situation what i've just read in the link above, but it seems to me alshujery and others are suffering the consequences of his anger issues.  dude, look where it's getting you.  

who wants to take on this toxic personality as an employee?  roommate?  

it's sad, really.  and it's sad to consider the fate of coaches who give so much of themselves for the development of kids--not grown men, but kids, who still sometimes do very immature things--and how those who give the most, can also have so much to lose over the volatility of just one kid who struggles to align with the laws of the universe.

 

shame on osu's administration.  they, to cover their own asses, hung out to dry one who was really on the front lines of shaping young men, who likely stood the best chance to help someone like this kid, if only the kid wasn't poisoned so much by his own anger.

Edited by John Coctostan

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based on comments another coach should have been worried.

 

based on the 'victims' comments, roberts was just a hard ass. and he didn't like it.

Assuming you’re referring to Zalesky, I agree. Mostly referring to the urging of him to wrestle on a torn ACL, but also his alleged comments during practice, while not really termination-worthy IMO were inappropriate and I think sound worse than what Roberts allegedly said.

 

Considering how long the article was, I’m curious why they didn’t seem to ask Zalesky about the alleged essentially blackballing of Ali after Roberts was fired.

 

Also, $108K to be an assistant seems pretty good...

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Some random thoughts.

 

  • It is hard to say if the university was justified without knowing the facts that the paper couldn't get.  For example, were there other complaints against the coach?  Prior warnings?  We don't know.  That is a caveat to my comments that follow.
  • If the sole complaint against the coach was that of Alshujery, I don't think it should have resulted in termination, even if one credits Alshujery's version of the story.  The comments (e.g. referring to a hijab as a "Muslim helmet"), if made, were insensitive and better left unsaid, but there is no indicia of anti-Mustlim bias or animus to Alshujery.  They merit counseling, probably a warning, and preferably someone sitting the two in a room to talk it through.  
  • It is tempting to say that Alshujery was overly sensitive, as it was "just a joke." But that is sort of like using the N word and telling a black person that its "just a joke," or telling a Jew that a holocaust joke was "all in fun."  There are some topics that are highly sensitive to some groups, and many Muslims take great offense at perceived ridiculing of their religion -- comments that others would dismiss as harmless jokes.  Those in a position of authority are wise to learn about such cultural disconnects.  But again, that is all the more reason that counseling and a mutual sit-down would have been the thoughtful and appropriate way to handle this.
  • Interestingly, the comments attributed to Zalesky -- e.g. calling him "Allah" and saying "don't bomb us" -- strike me as objectively more problematic than those attributed to Roberts.  It isn't clear whether Alshujery complained about Zalesky too, but apparently not.  I wonder if there will be any fallout from that.
  • The article is not fair to Alshujery in one important sense -- it delves at length into entirely unrelated incidents in which Alshujery lost his temper, painting him as a hothead.  For the most part Alshujery owns up to those incidents, but they are almost entirely irrelevant.  Whether or not Alshujery is a hothead at times (and apparently he is) has little to do with whether and to what extent the hajib comments were appropriate and whether Alshujery was offended by them, which is all that matters here.  The focus on Alshujery's loss of temper in unrelated incidents serves little purpose except to cast Alshujery in a negative light, and is not fair.
  • The fact that Roberts was terminated outright could well be a product, at least indirectly, of some of the more problematic Title IX guidance that universities have had shoved down their throats in recent years.  We hear about it more in the sexual assault context, but racial discrimination claims fall under the same standards, and universities have been under tremendous pressure from the Department of Education to skew investigations in favor of the complaining party at the risk of loss of federal funds.  Though I'm no fan of Betsy DeVos, by far the best thing she has done as Secretary of Education is call out these standards as unfair to the accused. Lets hope there is reform.  

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This should be a lesson for coaches.  Do not bring up race, religion, or sexual orientation with your athletes.  If they bring it up, do not engage.  Be respectful of their beliefs, as crazy as they might be (e.g. not believing in evolution).  

 

People have extremely thin skin, and in a professional environment you are held responsible for offending these people. The firing was absolutely justified given the way the world now works.  A wrestling program is the last place you want causing student protests/problems for the athletic department.   

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"Be respectful of their beliefs, as crazy as they might be (e.g. not believing in evolution)" 

 

​sounds like you really believe this, especially while taking a jab at those who don't believe in evolution. 

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Every former OSU wrestler sided with Roberts in the article....Steiner, having been in the program many years also backed up Zalesky and Roberts....Jess Lewis backed the coaches....seems to be a pattern. And OSU had to settle out of court with Roberts. 

Edited by Idaho

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This should be a lesson for coaches.  Do not bring up race, religion, or sexual orientation with your athletes.  If they bring it up, do not engage.  Be respectful of their beliefs, as crazy as they might be (e.g. not believing in evolution).  

 

People have extremely thin skin, and in a professional environment you are held responsible for offending these people. The firing was absolutely justified given the way the world now works.  A wrestling program is the last place you want causing student protests/problems for the athletic department.

 

You tell others to be respectful of other people's beliefs, yet its ok for you to disrespect them by calling them crazy for not aligning themselves with your own.

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"Be respectful of their beliefs, as crazy as they might be (e.g. not believing in evolution)" 

 

​sounds like you really believe this, especially while taking a jab at those who don't believe in evolution. 

Yes this is my point.  If i were an assistant wrestling coach and I had an athlete that didn't understand science because of his religion, I would not bring it up.  You can't do that.  If I did, I would rightfully be fired given the current society we live in where you have to walk on egg shells.  That's why this guy was unsurprisingly canned. You can't make comments like that anymore.  OSU had no other choice.  

 

You tell others to be respectful of other people's beliefs, yet its ok for you to disrespect them by calling them crazy for not aligning themselves with your own.

Exactly.  My point is you can't offend people by saying things like that even if they are undoubtedly true or meant in jest. As a coach (or boss in a corporate environment), you can't engage in these types of things.  Once the complaint was filed, his fate was sealed.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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Yes this is my point. If i were an assistant wrestling coach and I had an athlete that didn't understand science because of his religion, I would not bring it up. You can't do that. If I did, I would rightfully be fired given the current society we live in where you have to walk on egg shells. That's why this guy was unsurprisingly canned. You can't make comments like that anymore. OSU had no other choice.

 

 

Exactly. My point is you can't offend people by saying things like that even if they are undoubtedly true or meant in jest. As a coach (or boss in a corporate environment), you can't engage in these types of things. Once the complaint was filed, his fate was sealed.

 

So you're a hypocrite then for calling people with religious views crazy and not solely believing in evolution. Edited by BigTenFanboy

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" If i were an assistant wrestling coach and I had an athlete that didn't understand science because of his religion"

 

See there you go again...I don't think you understand what you are doing here so I will make it simple as BigTenFanBoy tried to do as well....I don't disagree with your point in general about respecting religions but while trying to make your point about respecting religions you are using examples that in fact disrespect peoples beliefs and religion...the word we would use would be Hypocrisy. 

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Yes this is my point.  If i were an assistant wrestling coach and I had an athlete that didn't understand science because of his religion, I would not bring it up.  You can't do that.  If I did, I would rightfully be fired given the current society we live in where you have to walk on egg shells.  That's why this guy was unsurprisingly canned. You can't make comments like that anymore.  OSU had no other choice.  

 

Exactly.  My point is you can't offend people by saying things like that even if they are undoubtedly true or meant in jest. As a coach (or boss in a corporate environment), you can't engage in these types of things.  Once the complaint was filed, his fate was sealed.  

 

Attacking, mocking or bullying someone because of their beliefs is one thing, but just disagreeing with someone is grounds for dismissal?   I think not.  That's really the issue over Alshujery's and Roberts' conversation: was it a respectful differing of opinion, or did it go into the realm of hate and bigotry?  From the article, it's still not completely clear, as each person presented a different version of what was said and more importantly, how it was said.

 

And if a college student doesn't understand science, religious or not, that's their problem - go off and learn about science.

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Some random thoughts.

 

  • It is hard to say if the university was justified without knowing the facts that the paper couldn't get.  For example, were there other complaints against the coach?  Prior warnings?  We don't know.  That is a caveat to my comments that follow.
  • If the sole complaint against the coach was that of Alshujery, I don't think it should have resulted in termination, even if one credits Alshujery's version of the story.  The comments (e.g. referring to a hijab as a "Muslim helmet"), if made, were insensitive and better left unsaid, but there is no indicia of anti-Mustlim bias or animus to Alshujery.  They merit counseling, probably a warning, and preferably someone sitting the two in a room to talk it through.  
  • It is tempting to say that Alshujery was overly sensitive, as it was "just a joke." But that is sort of like using the N word and telling a black person that its "just a joke," or telling a Jew that a holocaust joke was "all in fun."  There are some topics that are highly sensitive to some groups, and many Muslims take great offense at perceived ridiculing of their religion -- comments that others would dismiss as harmless jokes.  Those in a position of authority are wise to learn about such cultural disconnects.  But again, that is all the more reason that counseling and a mutual sit-down would have been the thoughtful and appropriate way to handle this.
  • Interestingly, the comments attributed to Zalesky -- e.g. calling him "Allah" and saying "don't bomb us" -- strike me as objectively more problematic than those attributed to Roberts.  It isn't clear whether Alshujery complained about Zalesky too, but apparently not.  I wonder if there will be any fallout from that.
  • The article is not fair to Alshujery in one important sense -- it delves at length into entirely unrelated incidents in which Alshujery lost his temper, painting him as a hothead.  For the most part Alshujery owns up to those incidents, but they are almost entirely irrelevant.  Whether or not Alshujery is a hothead at times (and apparently he is) has little to do with whether and to what extent the hajib comments were appropriate and whether Alshujery was offended by them, which is all that matters here.  The focus on Alshujery's loss of temper in unrelated incidents serves little purpose except to cast Alshujery in a negative light, and is not fair.
  • The fact that Roberts was terminated outright could well be a product, at least indirectly, of some of the more problematic Title IX guidance that universities have had shoved down their throats in recent years.  We hear about it more in the sexual assault context, but racial discrimination claims fall under the same standards, and universities have been under tremendous pressure from the Department of Education to skew investigations in favor of the complaining party at the risk of loss of federal funds.  Though I'm no fan of Betsy DeVos, by far the best thing she has done as Secretary of Education is call out these standards as unfair to the accused. Lets hope there is reform.  

 

 

Agree.

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This isn't a professional environment, dummy. This is a message board.

 

It has nothing to do with being a professional environment, dummy.

Being a hypocrite is a social construct, dummy. 

Don't tell people to do something that you yourself aren't willing to do, dummy.

Got it, dummy?

Professional behavior enables people to hide their hypocritical views, this being a message board enables people to expose their hypocritical views, dummy.

 

but then again, i wouldn't expect a dummy like you to understand something like this.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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It has nothing to do with being a professional environment, dummy.

Being a hypocrite is a social construct, dummy. 

Don't tell people to do something that you yourself aren't willing to do, dummy.

Got it, dummy?

Professional behavior enables people to hide their hypocritical views, this being a message board enables people to expose their hypocritical views, dummy.

 

but then again, i wouldn't expect a dummy like you to understand something like this.

embarrassing

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I’ve been in the OSU practice room a dozen or so times over the last 6-7 years.  Sometimes on FB Saturdays with parents and other many other fans.  Other times on a day off where it is just myself and a couple fans watching.  Coaches will be giving instruction or 1 on 1 details.  Sometimes some jokes come out, but it was light hearted and meant to break the tension of a really tough session.  Never heard anything derogatory.

 

I got to know Coach Roberts really well and have a ton of respect for him.  Know the current coaches: Z, Meeks, Miller, & Palmer.  All are good guys and interact with the fans and parents as much as they can.  I always get the impression they’d do anything for the kids in the program.  The program lost a long time fan last spring.  Z and Roberts took time out of their schedules to drive a couple hours to attend the fans’ celebration of life.  Other stories of visiting older fans on their death beds in the hospital.

 

Not condoning any behavior or what was said or not said.  I feel for Roberts and Ali, the wrestler.  No winners here.  I would be hopping from job to job using the same standard OSU did in this instance.  The testimony of other wrestlers and roommates is big deal in this piece for me.  For that I though Roberts would be a candidate for some sensitivity training, verbal reprimand or something of that sort.  Don’t go straight to firing him, with no chance for rebuttal.  Just my .02, I don’t hire/fire for Oregon State.

 

Other stuff, I attended the end of season awards banquet for the team a couple of weekends ago.  About 120 in attendance.  It was a good time, celebrating the improvement in conference finish  and bring home 2 AA awards.  Amar Dhesi’s 3rd place finish is Coach Z’s highest place winner since he has been coach.  All of the coaches and an administrator were there.  Not a peep was said about this incident.  That’s the head scratcher for me, why 9 months after the firing and 13 months after the incident is this coming out now?  Eggers very rarely writes any pieces on wrestling.  Its usually FB, Basketball and Baseball.  The mind wonders about motives there as well.

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