US OPEN-freestyle discussion

[wrestlingnerd 2,825]

The old process sucked and Dake, among many others, was right to criticize it. The new process is outstanding and a true, fair test of our best athletes who train their asses year round and deserve nothing less.

[boconnell 1,521]

The old process sucked and Dake, among many others, was right to criticize it. The new process is outstanding and a true, fair test of our best athletes who train their asses year round and deserve nothing less.

Dake was a whiner about the old process.  He is a whiner in general even when he is whining for the right reason.  I say that as a guy who has never rooted against him in a match at any level. 

 

The old process was designed to win the most possible medals rather than to be fair.  I am a huge Dake fan and I rooted for him to unseat JB, but I'd rather have a maybe medalist stuck behind a medalist than a no chance for a medalist beat out a medalist domestically because he can game plan for him.  

[straggler 65]

Dake was a whiner about the old process.  He is a whiner in general even when he is whining for the right reason.  I say that as a guy who has never rooted against him in a match at any level. 

 

The old process was designed to win the most possible medals rather than to be fair.  I am a huge Dake fan and I rooted for him to unseat JB, but I'd rather have a maybe medalist stuck behind a medalist than a no chance for a medalist beat out a medalist domestically because he can game plan for him.  

Oh please. The old process was complete and utter garbage. I have asked for years for someone, anyone to come up with something comparable where an athletic selection process involves imposing a direct physical disadvantage on the challenger and no one has come up with anything yet. It is unprecedented. And as you admit the whole point is favoritism and spot protection, which in the highly subjective world of freestyle wrestling is toxic. (Taylor getting overtly upset after the Cox match is another example). Some of the calls that have gone against Dake when he has competed with Burroughs have been very interesting to say the least, especially the way he is constantly placed on the shot clock, as is what Burroughs has been able to get away with. I'd rather just have a fair competition. At the end of the day that's the system we have, but I blame nobody for complaining about it.  

[cjc007 716]

Oh please. The old process was complete and utter garbage. I have asked for years for someone, anyone to come up with something comparable where an athletic selection process involves imposing a direct physical disadvantage on the challenger and no one has come up with anything yet. It is unprecedented. And as you admit the whole point is favoritism and spot protection, which in the highly subjective world of freestyle wrestling is toxic. (Taylor getting overtly upset after the Cox match is another example). Some of the calls that have gone against Dake when he has competed with Burroughs have been very interesting to say the least, especially the way he is constantly placed on the shot clock, as is what Burroughs has been able to get away with. I'd rather just have a fair competition. At the end of the day that's the system we have, but I blame nobody for complaining about it.

The process produced a gold medal American TEAM. It was hardly garbage.

 

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[PRyan2012 344]

The process produced a gold medal American TEAM. It was hardly garbage.

 

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007

 

Truth. We did just win it. I do understand we need more domestic events that mean something though.

[boconnell 1,521]

Oh please. The old process was complete and utter garbage. I have asked for years for someone, anyone to come up with something comparable where an athletic selection process involves imposing a direct physical disadvantage on the challenger and no one has come up with anything yet. It is unprecedented. And as you admit the whole point is favoritism and spot protection, which in the highly subjective world of freestyle wrestling is toxic. (Taylor getting overtly upset after the Cox match is another example). Some of the calls that have gone against Dake when he has competed with Burroughs have been very interesting to say the least, especially the way he is constantly placed on the shot clock, as is what Burroughs has been able to get away with. I'd rather just have a fair competition. At the end of the day that's the system we have, but I blame nobody for complaining about it.  

It's amazing that everyone who complains about the selection process regarding Dake and Burroughs can't help but be talking mostly about bad calls by the end of the rant.  It exposes the argument as more about who won as opposed to how.  Not to mention Burroughs failed to medal in the Olympics, thus had no advantage in 2017, and then still won the spot with no advantage in 2017.  

 

So 2017 was completely fair competition and you still whine about it.  Obviously any Dake loss will result in whining from some corners.  

[wrestlingnerd 2,825]

The old process was stupid. No other major sport and no other major country in our sport uses anything like it. The concept of it is retarded. This has nothing to do with how much Dake whined or didn't whine. I said it about the process the second it came out before knowing any of its results. It's not unreasonable to think that this new process would've yielded the same results, but that's beside the point. The process itself was seriously flawed which is why they changed it.

[Stl 60]

Oh please. The old process was complete and utter garbage. I have asked for years for someone, anyone to come up with something comparable where an athletic selection process involves imposing a direct physical disadvantage on the challenger and no one has come up with anything yet. It is unprecedented. And as you admit the whole point is favoritism and spot protection, which in the highly subjective world of freestyle wrestling is toxic. (Taylor getting overtly upset after the Cox match is another example). Some of the calls that have gone against Dake when he has competed with Burroughs have been very interesting to say the least, especially the way he is constantly placed on the shot clock, as is what Burroughs has been able to get away with. I'd rather just have a fair competition. At the end of the day that's the system we have, but I blame nobody for complaining about it.

Technically the rules did not impose a direct physical disadvantage on the challenger. They present an incumbent with an advantage, which must be earned.

 

And plenty of sports provide physical advantages to competitors based on qualifying events. Track athletes with better qualifying events get the better lanes to race in. Same with swimmers. I'm pretty sure cyclists and race car drivers also get more advantageous starting positions based on qualifying events as well.

[Alwayswrestling 212]

If anyone does not think getting a pass to the finals of two out of three matches after the challenger goes through a mini tournament hours before has not wrestled or is is a IDIOT!

[nom 995]

If anyone does not think getting a pass to the finals of two out of three matches after the challenger goes through a mini tournament hours before has not wrestled or is is a IDIOT!

Uhhhhh .... what? I don’t think ... whatever is written here. So I’m an idiot? Careful about casting stones! LOL!

[spladle08 792]

If anyone does not think getting a pass to the finals of two out of three matches after the challenger goes through a mini tournament hours before has not wrestled or is is a IDIOT!

Totally not the same thing but only way I can join that side of the argument. 

I remember in HS one of the "better" kids in the state got a rough draw in a 44 man bracket at our biggest "Qualifier" he went 0-2 in Freestyle (it was under the old format of bracket where you end up getting 10+ matches) by the time we were done with that mess, we wrestled Greco, and while he wasn't the best in Greco, he literally hammered all of us who had spent the previous 10 hours Freestylin,

 

Guessing the extra 4 matches at Senior-level take just as much out of you... 

 

Or Who know's though, maybe it's easier to recover as a senior-level athlete...

Gillman & Retherford 

Both navigated the challenge tournament and won the 2 of 3

 

You may say it took a toll on 

Dake/Taylor/Bradley/Kennedy/Gadsen/Maple 

 

But we went 

Gold/Bronze/Bronze/Silver/Gold/ DNP 

at those weights at the Worlds... Maybe rested Maple beats Stieber, but face it we weren't medaling there anyways 

 

Maybe it's not "fair" to the challenger, and I'm sure you can look back and find me a few 2nd place wrestlers who were better. 

But overall I think our BEST wrestlers have still made the team... I'm not sure why the complaints unless you're just a big fan of a certain wrestler and upset he didnt make the team and need to have a reason it happened other than skillset. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wrestlingnerd 2,825]

Maybe it's not "fair" to the challenger, and I'm sure you can look back and find me a few 2nd place wrestlers who were better. 

But overall I think our BEST wrestlers have still made the team... I'm not sure why the complaints unless you're just a big fan of a certain wrestler and upset he didnt make the team and need to have a reason it happened other than skillset. 

 

 

You can have a shtty process produce good results when the top guys are good enough to come out on top no matter the process. That doesn't make the process a good one. As I said, I hated the process from the day it was announced, no matter what the outcomes it produced would be. Not a fair or even reasonable process for the sport of wrestling in which it was applied. That some world champions were the best wrestlers during the ball grab era anyway doesn't make the ball grab good.

 

Anyway, the best process we've ever had resulted as a response to the idiocy of the old process, so at least we have that.

Edited May 2, 2018 by wrestlingnerd

[spladle08 792]

 

 

Anyway, the best process we've ever had resulted as a response to the idiocy of the old process, so at least we have that.

Oh I fully agree having the event at a separate location/time really evens the playing-field, I'm in no-way downplaying the improvements of this process. Just noticed it was getting heated form response to response, and I was just saying ultimately the "Best of 3 after the mini tournament"-format, didn't really produce any "bad" results.   

 

Always room for improvements, and I hope we continue to examine our qualifications process and make sure we have the best guys vying for a spot on the team.

#Cheers

[straggler 65]

It's amazing that everyone who complains about the selection process regarding Dake and Burroughs can't help but be talking mostly about bad calls by the end of the rant.  It exposes the argument as more about who won as opposed to how.  Not to mention Burroughs failed to medal in the Olympics, thus had no advantage in 2017, and then still won the spot with no advantage in 2017.  

 

So 2017 was completely fair competition and you still whine about it.  Obviously any Dake loss will result in whining from some corners.  

Unfortunately they are connected. If you are going to go to extraordinary lengths to protect a roster spot that is likely going to have consequences on how a match is called. When Dake gets placed on the shot clock 2 (or was it 3) times at the US Open and then gets placed on the shot clock late in the 2nd match at the trials, is that coincidence or is the incumbent getting the extra benefit of the doubt? I complained about it. true enough. But I also gave Burroughs his due.    

[straggler 65]

Technically the rules did not impose a direct physical disadvantage on the challenger. They present an incumbent with an advantage, which must be earned.

 

And plenty of sports provide physical advantages to competitors based on qualifying events. Track athletes with better qualifying events get the better lanes to race in. Same with swimmers. I'm pretty sure cyclists and race car drivers also get more advantageous starting positions based on qualifying events as well.

I think a better analogy is have the challengers run two or three extra races and then meet in the finals that same day. I don't have a big problem with some earned advantages. But there are lines that are getting crossed. 

[GockeS 425]

as a world. medalist, i would assume they (the guys getting the byes) are good enough to produce the results

 

thus EARNING the bye.

[tbert 561]

Unfortunately they are connected. If you are going to go to extraordinary lengths to protect a roster spot that is likely going to have consequences on how a match is called. When Dake gets placed on the shot clock 2 (or was it 3) times at the US Open and then gets placed on the shot clock late in the 2nd match at the trials, is that coincidence or is the incumbent getting the extra benefit of the doubt? I complained about it. true enough. But I also gave Burroughs his due.

He was placed on the clock due to being passive. But it does make a good excuse (never ending)for him losing.

[boconnell 1,521]

Unfortunately they are connected. If you are going to go to extraordinary lengths to protect a roster spot that is likely going to have consequences on how a match is called. When Dake gets placed on the shot clock 2 (or was it 3) times at the US Open and then gets placed on the shot clock late in the 2nd match at the trials, is that coincidence or is the incumbent getting the extra benefit of the doubt? I complained about it. true enough. But I also gave Burroughs his due.    

They are not connected.  There was no great conspiracy.  There was an unfair trials process that was unfair on purpose and was not designed to help Burroughs specifically, but to ensure our medalists made the team.  That has nothing to do with how the matches were called.  

 

And you are referring to the 2017 qualification process where Burroughs had zero advantage over Dake because he wasn't a medalist.  So there were zero lengths to protect a roster spot.  

[bnwtwg 647]

If Snyder had to go through the entire Olympic tourney but Sadulaev was given a bye directly to the gold medal match and Snyder lost, we would be screaming from the mountains to change the format. This is the same concept.

[boconnell 1,521]

If Snyder had to go through the entire Olympic tourney but Sadulaev was given a bye directly to the gold medal match and Snyder lost, we would be screaming from the mountains to change the format. This is the same concept.

The process was unfair.  I don't see anyone saying it wasn't unfair.  But picking a rep is different than picking a champ and pretending it isn't is a bad argument.  Many colleges pick a lineup on far more than internal results.  The NCAA picks qualifiers based on the whole season and ignores the conference tournament in the process.  Many things in wrestling aren't fair and this is simply one of them.  USA wrestling decided getting the most accomplished guys in the lineup was more important than being fair.  I prefer the current system but I have no big complaints about them setting up a slanted system if that is what they want to do.  

 

And again, Dake is the main one people point at and he lost in 2017 on an even playing field.

[GranbyTroll 442]

If Snyder had to go through the entire Olympic tourney but Sadulaev was given a bye directly to the gold medal match and Snyder lost, we would be screaming from the mountains to change the format. This is the same concept.

 

Mods, can you please start deleting these types of posts? There are (probably) dozens of similar claims floating around and they're all making a false parallel. You don't seem people crying on the college boards because Zain Retherford had an "easier" road to the NCAA finals while the Lock Haven kid had to battle his way through the field. 

[spladle08 792]

Mods, can you please start deleting these types of posts? There are (probably) dozens of similar claims floating around and they're all making a false parallel. You don't seem people crying on the college boards because Zain Retherford had an "easier" road to the NCAA finals while the Lock Haven kid had to battle his way through the field. 

Lol they always go with the most extreme examples right. 

Take the (At the time maybe still now) 2 guys considered #1 and #2 in the world, change the qualifier to the Olympic finals, and have the guy who won the previous matchup... and the one we care about most as Americans,  losing... Yeah I guess under those circumstances sure, I think we would cry out it is the craziest system ever that they consider Saduleav so good he is guaranteed an Olympic Silver before the tourney even starts, despite having done nothing to be given that spot. 

 

I guess now that I typed it out, it is the exact same as earning a world medal or winning an NATIONAL OPEN tournament and getting a benefit for your accomplishment that everyone else also had a chance at.... 

 

You people r wild . 

 

 

 

[tec87 349]

People complaining about the selection process...we could always do it like Russia where a committee or 1 person makes the decision regardless of recent results. Lol

[wrestlingnerd 2,825]

People complaining about the selection process...we could always do it like Russia where a committee or 1 person makes the decision regardless of recent results. Lol

If you’re going to go to such lengths to protect a guy, id rather just do it the Russian way and be done with it.

[tbert 561]

If you’re going to go to such lengths to protect a guy, id rather just do it the Russian way and be done with it.

Must be a miserable existence endlessly looking over your shoulder for the worlds injustices.