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hammerlockthree

Does Mark Hall have a path?

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I don't think there's any way he beats Dieringer.  Definitely not Dake.  In a few years, then maybe.  But by then, Dieringer and Dake could be at different weights.

 

I don't know about that.  He's definitely mature enought to beat these guys.  He's 21 years old for crying out loud!!!

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It is amazing how most USA guys take some time to adjust to the senior level. While 29 year old world champs are not at all uncommon they are quite uncommon for the US. So it stands to reason as a general matter that even if Hall was the potential to one day he a world champ at the senior level that he isn’t there yet. And while he has two junior world titles there are a few things to consider.

 

First, I went and checked Hall’s competition at junior worlds. For the most part they haven’t done much yet in the senior level. There are a few Medved placers and all but done have leapt to the senior level to great effect. Second, here are two sobering examples of the limits of extrapolating junior level success to the senior level. Both Dom Bradley and Amar Dhesi were both junior world champs (Amar lost to Geno in the finals but he failed the drug test). Dhesi beat Coon in the semis. This was 2014. Dom won in 2009. Neither Dom nor Amar were NCAA champs nor were they senior world medalists. Not yet anyhow. Dom has never made a world team. Closest was second in the trials and a bunch of thirds.

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Well hopefully Mark has a great tourney at the Pan Am's and then we see him later for the U23's.

No Cuban entered at his weight.  Toughest match might be Ethan Ramos, who is wrestling for Puerto Rico, or Santiago Martinez (Colombia), who wrestled for Lehigh a few years back.  

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Well I just saw Mark Hall's post Pan Am's interview and he was asked what his plans were for this summer. He replied that he was taking the summer off. He cited the long collegite season as his reason. Hopefully the break serves him well.

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Well I just saw Mark Hall's post Pan Am's interview and he was asked what his plans were for this summer. He replied that he was taking the summer off. He cited the long collegite season as his reason. Hopefully the break serves him well.

 

I don't mean this as an indictment or statement of opinion, but just another observation of the nature of the beast: even for guys like Hall and a host of other collegians who state that an Olympic gold medal is their ultimate goal but then don't wrestle the US Open or "take the summer off"--the collegiate career is a beast that takes a giant chunk out of logging freestyle miles during what are the prime development years for other nations' guys who have similar goals.

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The brutal NCAA season is why we seemingly have a lot  of guys medal at Junior Worlds then never even make Team USA. Wrestlers everywhere else in the world spend those years developing their technique, not grinding out folkstyle 40-50 folkstyle matches every year. 

Hmm, so, in contrast, do we ignore that those same "constraints" developed Gilman, Gomez, Retherford, Molinaro, Burroughs,Herbert, Cox, Varner, Dlagnev and Gwiz?  They all seemed to be able to step right into Freestyle without much of an issue..........

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Hmm, so, in contrast, do we ignore that those same "constraints" developed Gilman, Gomez, Retherford, Molinaro, Burroughs,Herbert, Cox, Varner, Dlagnev and Gwiz?  They all seemed to be able to step right into Freestyle without much of an issue..........

But the depth... we aren't "deep" at any weight, maybe 79kg with Ringer and Dake.. 2 deep

 

To GranbyTroll's point, you replace those 4years of folkstyle with 4 years of improving your FS/GR technique you got kids realizing their potential in that style and the competition at the top becomes greater and greater, instead ....you have to accept/admit that some of the folkstyle kids who can't win at the NCAA level getting Heil-funked (which is not relevant to freestyle) week in and out, never fully test the waters of freestyle, we basically take our best folkstyle kids straight from college give them some support and hope they develop. 

Not knocking NCAA wrestling, just the point that more experience/competition creates better wrestlers is a solid point. 

 

Would you expect USA to dominate Folkstyle wrestling if it was introduced into the Olympics... On the whole we would be better because we focus on it more. Why can't many of you accept that thats why other countries generally outperform us... (save for recent couple of years)

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But the depth... we aren't "deep" at any weight, maybe 79kg with Ringer and Dake.. 2 deep

 

To GranbyTroll's point, you replace those 4years of folkstyle with 4 years of improving your FS/GR technique you got kids realizing their potential in that style and the competition at the top becomes greater and greater, instead ....you have to accept/admit that some of the folkstyle kids who can't win at the NCAA level getting Heil-funked (which is not relevant to freestyle) week in and out, never fully test the waters of freestyle, we basically take our best folkstyle kids straight from college give them some support and hope they develop. 

Not knocking NCAA wrestling, just the point that more experience/competition creates better wrestlers is a solid point. 

 

Would you expect USA to dominate Folkstyle wrestling if it was introduced into the Olympics... On the whole we would be better because we focus on it more. Why can't many of you accept that thats why other countries generally outperform us... (save for recent couple of years)

I would argue that our depth is at a long time high.

 

57kg: Gilman, Ramos, Lee,Fix and Micic.  Pretty damn solid

61kg:  Colon, Garrett, Gross, Megaludis and Graff.  Our weakest weight due to new weigh ins forcing Streeblier up.

65kg:  Retherford, Streeblier,(Oliver suspended), McKenna and now Eierman.

70kg:  Green, Molinaro, Chamberlain and now a young Hidlay.  Not too shabby.

74kg:  Burroughs and IMar.  It was SUPER deep, but Howe had enough, Dake and Taylor ran away a while ago and Dieringer conveniently had 79kg show up.

79kg:  Dake, Dieringer, Valencia and Hall.  Pretty fricking strong.

86kg:  Taylor is definitely by himself due to 92kg opening up for Cox.

92kg:  Cox is definitely by himself due to this weight opening up. Zillmer has improved quite a bit, but is still a decent ways behind.

97kg:  Snyder makes it all unnecessary.  Schafer looked really good, though and Gadsen is solid.

125kg:  Gwiz, Coon and Varner with an up and coming Steveson makes for a strong weight for years to come.

 

 

Edited to add:  Now, I am not saying that training exclusively for Freestyle wouldn't have made these guys better, faster.  But, the way many talk about DI as some major detriment is very wrong.  The DI experience is paramount to turning boys into men.  Many of these guys learned a ton of intangibles in that experience that helped get them to where they are now.

Edited by MSU158

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I would argue that our depth is at a long time high.

 

57kg: Gilman, Ramos, Lee,Fix and Micic.  Pretty damn solid

61kg:  Colon, Garrett, Gross, Megaludis and Graff.  Our weakest weight due to new weigh ins forcing Streeblier up.

65kg:  Retherford, Streeblier,(Oliver suspended), McKenna and now Eierman.

70kg:  Green, Molinaro, Chamberlain and now a young Hidlay.  Not too shabby.

74kg:  Burroughs and IMar.  It was SUPER deep, but Howe had enough, Dake and Taylor ran away a while ago and Dieringer conveniently had 79kg show up.

79kg:  Dake, Dieringer, Valencia and Hall.  Pretty fricking strong.

86kg:  Taylor is definitely by himself due to 92kg opening up for Cox.

92kg:  Cox is definitely by himself due to this weight opening up. Zillmer has improved quite a bit, but is still a decent ways behind.

97kg:  Snyder makes it all unnecessary.  Schafer looked really good, though and Gadsen is solid.

125kg:  Gwiz, Coon and Varner with an up and coming Steveson makes for a strong weight for years to come.

 

 

Edited to add:  Now, I am not saying that training exclusively for Freestyle wouldn't have made these guys better, faster.  But, the way many talk about DI as some major detriment is very wrong.  The DI experience is paramount to turning boys into men.  Many of these guys learned a ton of intangibles in that experience that helped get them to where they are now.

D1 is a great experience, but replace folk with free and we have 4 years extra training the proper style and as you listed yourself we are generally 

not very deep, 1 or 2 guys who could place at the world level or no guys.

 

57kg: Gilman, Ramos, Lee,Fix and Micic.  Deeper

61kg:  Colon, Garrett, Gross, Megaludis and Graff. 0 guys

65kg:  Retherford, Streeblier,(Oliver suspended), McKenna and now Eierman. 0 to 1 guys

70kg:  Green, Molinaro, Chamberlain and now a young Hidlay.  Green

74kg:  Burroughs and IMar.  1

79kg:  Dake, Dieringer, Valencia and Hall.  2

86kg:  Taylor 1

92kg:  Cox 1

97kg:  Snyder 1

125kg:  Gwiz 1

 

We are a tough country but very top heavy 

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I would argue that our depth is at a long time high.

 

57kg: Gilman, Ramos, Lee,Fix and Micic. Pretty damn solid

61kg: Colon, Garrett, Gross, Megaludis and Graff. Our weakest weight due to new weigh ins forcing Streeblier up.

65kg: Retherford, Streeblier,(Oliver suspended), McKenna and now Eierman.

70kg: Green, Molinaro, Chamberlain and now a young Hidlay. Not too shabby.

74kg: Burroughs and IMar. It was SUPER deep, but Howe had enough, Dake and Taylor ran away a while ago and Dieringer conveniently had 79kg show up.

79kg: Dake, Dieringer, Valencia and Hall. Pretty fricking strong.

86kg: Taylor is definitely by himself due to 92kg opening up for Cox.

92kg: Cox is definitely by himself due to this weight opening up. Zillmer has improved quite a bit, but is still a decent ways behind.

97kg: Snyder makes it all unnecessary. Schafer looked really good, though and Gadsen is solid.

125kg: Gwiz, Coon and Varner with an up and coming Steveson makes for a strong weight for years to come.

 

 

Edited to add: Now, I am not saying that training exclusively for Freestyle wouldn't have made these guys better, faster. But, the way many talk about DI as some major detriment is very wrong. The DI experience is paramount to turning boys into men. Many of these guys learned a ton of intangibles in that experience that helped get them to where they are now.

Micic is Team Serbia

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Well..... FS switch will never happen so I don't debate it anymore. The styles are closer then they used to be and that has helped. As to depth, 57 is one year away to being ridiculously deep. Fix is a work in progress and Lee of course. Gilman and Ramos with cred. 61 Meh. 65 seriously only Zain if he is okay. The rest get good wins bit can't navigate a world tournament. 70 Green is our world class guy. The others are solid but not contenders. 74 as mentioned a lot, JB has cleared the weight out. OMar is not a senior level world placer yet. 79 Dake, and now Dinger are depth. The other two are not senior level depth yet. 86/92 depth of one. 97 no need for depth, rules world. HT Gwiz depth of one. Coon needs to bring it in a top level world competition but looks promising. On Hall - watching his video in this tournament, and watching a lot of euro matches, he isn't there yet.

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The brutal NCAA season is why we seemingly have a lot of guys medal at Junior Worlds then never even make Team USA. Wrestlers everywhere else in the world spend those years developing their technique, not grinding out folkstyle 40-50 folkstyle matches every year.

Is it that brutal for Zain or Hall?

 

They brutalized the competition.

 

I thought they were winning because of all the fun?

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Edited by cjc007

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Hmm, so, in contrast, do we ignore that those same "constraints" developed Gilman, Gomez, Retherford, Molinaro, Burroughs,Herbert, Cox, Varner, Dlagnev and Gwiz?  They all seemed to be able to step right into Freestyle without much of an issue..........

 

Why is "constraints" in quotes? Are they ironic constraints? 

Edited by GranbyTroll

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We spend more on developing wrestlers than any other country on Earth. Folkstyle pays the Piper, so it calls the tune. Quit crying!!!

We waste more time wrestling for collegiate glory than any other country in the world.

 

 

 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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I don't understand why this has to descend into an argument every time. The points have all been made a million times. Can't we all just agree on these main points and discuss the nuances as thinking fans of the sport who are on the same page with the basics of where we're at?

 

1. Folkstyle isn't the same as freestyle and our same scholastic/collegiate system, were it fully freestyle & greco with the same passionate coaching and fanbase, would produce more medals and more golds internationally

2. Our collegiate system does produce hardened, dedicated athletes capable of winning medals

3. Our system isn't changing anytime soon

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We waste more time wrestling for collegiate glory than any other country in the world.

 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

 

A good start at creating change would be to have all the wrestlers at your school give up folk and concentrate solely on free. 

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A good start at creating change would be to have all the wrestlers at your school give up folk and concentrate solely on free.

Tell that to Carl.

 

He burned out his entire team wrestling for age group glory.

 

 

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I don't understand why this has to descend into an argument every time. The points have all been made a million times. Can't we all just agree on these main points and discuss the nuances as thinking fans of the sport who are on the same page with the basics of where we're at?

 

1. Folkstyle isn't the same as freestyle and our same scholastic/collegiate system, were it fully freestyle & greco with the same passionate coaching and fanbase, would produce more medals and more golds internationally

2. Our collegiate system does produce hardened, dedicated athletes capable of winning medals

3. Our system isn't changing anytime soon

Pretty solid summary. 

When I was a kid I would've been against the change, as an adult though I'm like CHANGE IT!!!!, but yeah it's not happening....

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