Does Mark Hall have a path?

[MSU158 2,009]

Why is "constraints" in quotes? Are they ironic constraints? 

Glean from it what you will, pretty sure what followed after made that self explanatory.

[GranbyTroll 452]

Glean from it what you will, pretty sure what followed after made that self explanatory.

 

I honestly don't get it. Were you quoting an author's original text? Because then you'd need a citation...

Edited May 8, 2018 by GranbyTroll

[rjs 5]

SO...the opening question was whether Hall has a path in 2018. I think the answer there is already given: No. He hasn't wrestled any of the WTT qualifying events.

 

Could he have had a path? That is the better question, and it seems to me that the camps are split between "He's a punk kid who has no chance against 'the men' (Dake and Ringer) at this weight," and "Of course he could have had a path...he's a multi-Junior Worlds FS Champion with wins over "men" who are now highly competitive on the seniors world stage.

 

I watched another "punk kid" who had not yet even won an NCAA title dismantle the reigning Olympic Champion on his way to winning the first of his three world-level titles (to match his three NCAA titles). Snyder was the first in USAW to do this since Smith, but we have seen other Junior-level champions from elsewhere around the world step up to win Senior-level FILA/UWW championships in their first year or two out of the junior ranks. Hall certainly has the ability to do so as well (as likely also do Lee, Fix, Steveson in the next year or two).

Edited May 8, 2018 by rjs

[MSU158 2,009]

I honestly don't get it. Were you quoting an author's original text? Because then you'd need a citation...

I stand firmly by my explanation.  

[ArianaGrande 0]

Lol who is calling Hall a punk. Think the correct thought here was we have 2 top 10 guys in the world, and he just isn't there yet.

 

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[spladle08 1,125]

"He's a punk kid who has no chance against 'the men' (Dake and Ringer) at this weight," and "Of course he could have had a path...he's a multi-Junior Worlds FS Champion with wins over "men" who are now highly competitive on the seniors world stage.

 

I watched another "punk kid" who had not yet even won an NCAA title dismantle the reigning Olympic Champion on his way

Who is saying Hall is a "Punk kid"? Some old man complaining about him being on his lawn in the 70's? 

He's super tough, but we have 2 guys who are top 10 in the world on the senior level, its really quite clear. 

[cjc007 774]

SO...the opening question was whether Hall has a path in 2018. I think the answer there is already given: No. He hasn't wrestled any of the WTT qualifying events.

 

Could he have had a path? That is the better question, and it seems to me that the camps are split between "He's a punk kid who has no chance against 'the men' (Dake and Ringer) at this weight," and "Of course he could have had a path...he's a multi-Junior Worlds FS Champion with wins over "men" who are now highly competitive on the seniors world stage.

 

I watched another "punk kid" who had not yet even won an NCAA title dismantle the reigning Olympic Champion on his way to winning the first of his three world-level titles (to match his three NCAA titles). Snyder was the first in USAW to do this since Smith, but we have seen other Junior-level champions from elsewhere around the world step up to win Senior-level FILA/UWW championships in their first year or two out of the junior ranks. Hall certainly has the ability to do so as well (as likely also do Lee, Fix, Steveson in the next year or two).

Let's compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges!

 

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[sgallan 592]

The brutal NCAA season is why we seemingly have a lot of guys medal at Junior Worlds then never even make Team USA. Wrestlers everywhere else in the world spend those years developing their technique, not grinding out folkstyle 40-50 folkstyle matches every year.

This. It just isn't wrestling. Being realistic when on DI scholarship this means the sport come first, then education. All that work, still have to keep grades, still young and want to do stuff young adults do, and wrestling being a grinding sport in general, with bunches of little injuries that add up. HEW, in this context makes a lot of sense. In this context a lot of the PSU guys wanting a break also makes sense.

[Plasmodium 2,255]

100% spot-on.

 

I know not everything is equal in wrestling and it's hard to take on result and apply it to another matchup..... "you still gotta wrestle" and all those cliche sayings come in. 

But Steveson and Fix should have given everyone some perspective this weekend. 

Both dominant Junior World Champions. Both losing to Senior's who will not medal and will likely not compete for the US in 2018. 

We have a weight with a clear cut 2 World medal threats and to think Hall has a solid chance to make the team is just insane. 

 

Anyways, I know fans don't always see facts, and Hall will be a solid senior at some point probably but for now.... just get better and try to win 1 more NCAA title before you graduate. 

 

Side note, I wish WTT was this weekend. 

 

 

He's been on the Hall over anyone including Dake in 2018 bandwagon for some time now. God knows why. There is zero evidence that he could keep it respectable with either Ringer or Dake, both quite literally senior-level world class at this point.

bump

[spladle08 1,125]

bump

Yeah look at the "Zahid Valencia" thread, we all checked in and said "Man were we wrong about him" 

... I don't know if you were wanting a "Got ya" moment, but we all basically raised our hands already 

[wrestlingnerd 3,003]

Raised our hands about what? Last I checked, Hall is taking the summer off because he realizes what most do. No chance this year. 

[spladle08 1,125]

Raised our hands about what? Last I checked, Hall is taking the summer off because he realizes what most do. No chance this year. 

Just re-read over what I responded. 

I thought at that point I was arguing against Valencia and he was showing me how wrong I as, I was wrong assuming it was a clear cut "Dake vs Ringer" race, but now that I re-read it, I do still think it would it's insane to think Hall would have won the spot. 

 

Again, man Valencia looked good, if Dake is a bad matchup stylistically  for him and he gets teched I'll be very disappointed, he looked like a World Champ vs Ringer. I just did not expect that 

[PRyan2012 347]

Ringer has got to be crushed. Made all those strides against Dake and then this. Nothing in life is guaranteed! 

[spladle08 1,125]

Ringer has got to be crushed. Made all those strides against Dake and then this. Nothing in life is guaranteed! 

If Zahid gets by Dake. i can't imagine the inner turmoil that dude will have,

[wrestlingnerd 3,003]

Just re-read over what I responded. 

I thought at that point I was arguing against Valencia and he was showing me how wrong I as, I was wrong assuming it was a clear cut "Dake vs Ringer" race, but now that I re-read it, I do still think it would it's insane to think Hall would have won the spot. 

 

Again, man Valencia looked good, if Dake is a bad matchup stylistically  for him and he gets teched I'll be very disappointed, he looked like a World Champ vs Ringer. I just did not expect that 

 

 

My only point was that it's funny Plasmodium calls out posts about Hall not being a likely starter for us this year by pointing out that the guy who made him his b at NCAAs beat Ringer. My dad can beat yours, therefore, I can beat you too! WTF kind of logic is that?

[madcat11 436]

If Zahid gets by Dake. i can't imagine the inner turmoil that dude will have,

The sport is brutal

[wrestlingnerd 3,003]

When was the last time we had three very legit medal threats in one weight class? I think Ringer can hold his head high and give it another go next year. He is still relatively young. Dake nearly murdered him the first time they met and Ringer responded well to that beating. Zahid is likely to move up for the Olympic year because there’s zero chance he’ll move down. I expect Ringer to stay in the game until then and reassess for 2021. He has stated he has coaching aspirations. Staying active until 2020 can only help his cause as a promising coach.

Edited May 21, 2018 by wrestlingnerd

[rjs 5]

Who is saying Hall is a "Punk kid"? Some old man complaining about him being on his lawn in the 70's? 

He's super tough, but we have 2 guys who are top 10 in the world on the senior level, its really quite clear. 

 

No one literally said "punk kid".  I was generalizing, based on your previous comments suggesting Hall would should hold out and mature more...no sense getting "beat down by Dake/Ringer for nothing". 

 

 

Other comments included:

 

 

 

wrestlingnerd:  God knows why (anyone would think Hall can beat next level leaders)...zero evidence he could "keep it respectable" with Dake/Ringer.

 

Eagle26:  Hall is "Not even close" to competing on the same level as Dake/Ringer.

 

Others also had similar comments.  My point is that Hall (1) was not a one-hit wonder at the Junior level, (2) has beaten world level competitors, and (3) should be considered at least capable of having the same or similar impact as other young wrestlers who have shocked the world early on in their careers...many of whom did not have as successful an international cadet/junior outing as Hall did (see http://www.leekemp.com/youngest-world-olympic-wrestling-champions/ ).  Don't forget that Snyder beat the world only a few months after getting pinned in the NCAA finals.

Edited May 24, 2018 by rjs

[rjs 5]

Let's compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges!

 

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Not sure whether you consider Snyder an apple or an orange, but at the time he beat the world in 2015, his credentials were similar to Hall's at the same point in time.  That seems to me a fair/like comparison.

 

 

(...some might even argue that Hall's credentials at the same point in his career were slightly superior to Snyder's before he entered the 2015 senior FS mix)

[TBar1977 4,532]

rjs, I agree with you. Just consider the same folks said the same things about Zahid and they were wrong on him too.

[jammen 337]

Hall still has a chance to be "The face of Kentucky wrestling".

[sgallan 592]

Just re-read over what I responded.

I thought at that point I was arguing against Valencia and he was showing me how wrong I as, I was wrong assuming it was a clear cut "Dake vs Ringer" race, but now that I re-read it, I do still think it would it's insane to think Hall would have won the spot.

 

Again, man Valencia looked good, if Dake is a bad matchup stylistically for him and he gets teched I'll be very disappointed, he looked like a World Champ vs Ringer. I just did not expect that

My opinion is Dake is a bad stylistic match up for Valencia if he goes back to his collegiate style of defense, positioning, and win close. Basically block him out and find a TD or criteria win. This has been the best strategy to beat Zahid since little kids. But Zahid just worked Ringer. Zahid is so good on his feet and seems to be really close to chaining turns. If Dake wins it is his last year over Zahid. 86 in the Olympic cycle.... just damm!

[sgallan 592]

Not sure whether you consider Snyder an apple or an orange, but at the time he beat the world in 2015, his credentials were similar to Hall's at the same point in time. That seems to me a fair/like comparison.

 

 

(...some might even argue that Hall's credentials at the same point in his career were slightly superior to Snyder's before he entered the 2015 senior FS mix)

Yeah you can make a logical argument for anything (like lawyers), but using Snyder as a comparison argument is just not fair. One guy became a frickin' ridiculous talent for the ages does not mean...... well anybody can do it because Snyder did.

[rjs 5]

Yeah you can make a logical argument for anything (like lawyers), but using Snyder as a comparison argument is just not fair. One guy became a frickin' ridiculous talent for the ages does not mean...... well anybody can do it because Snyder did.

I was really just doing my best to answer the questions posed...which were (1) does Hall have a path, and (2) (generalizing) could he be successful if he had a path.  The answer to (1) was obviously "no", since he did not meet any of the WTT entry criteria.  As to the question of "could he", well...as you put it...logically the answer is "yes" he could.  Many of the other posters were dismissing that notion off hand, which (in my opinion) is foolish and "illogical" at best. 

 

I did not weigh in on whether I think he would have...only that there is a reasonable argument that he could have.  In no way do I think that "anybody can do it because Snyder did it."  Snyder is an exceptional anomaly to be sure, but in 2015 there were next to no "experts" predicting that he would do what he did...most didn't even think he could get past Varner, let alone shock the world as he did.  Hall would likely face exactly that kind of doubt (as is evidenced by the posts in this thread alone), but he is a multi-world junior champion, coming off of a successful senior-level debut...so, in my eyes at least, it isn't much of a stretch to think that he would have made major waves at WTT.

 

...and no, I'm not a lawyer! ;-)

Edited May 25, 2018 by rjs

[rjs 5]

rjs, I agree with you. Just consider the same folks said the same things about Zahid and they were wrong on him too.

Agreed...Z presents lots of problems, doesn't he?  Fun stuff!