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Very confused. I was told multiple times the other day that JO's ban was not a one year suspension but a two year suspension. This match takes place within that two years. Can someone please explain?

Fail.

 

 

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Oliver got caught. Do the time.  We don't let criminals off the hook one day early because they have a wedding or a funeral to attend. Flo makes the case that the US wants to have the best wrestler at that weight and so should give Oliver a chance.  Yet, they complain when countries like Russia cheat.  There is supposed to be a rule of law in this country, even though we have a corrupt, pathological lying narcissist and thug in charge who undermines truth and every other norm.  Let Oliver do his time and then come back if he can. 

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Oliver got caught. Do the time. We don't let criminals off the hook one day early because they have a wedding or a funeral to attend. Flo makes the case that the US wants to have the best wrestler at that weight and so should give Oliver a chance. Yet, they complain when countries like Russia cheat. There is supposed to be a rule of law in this country, even though we have a corrupt, pathological lying narcissist and thug in charge who undermines truth and every other norm. Let Oliver do his time and then come back if he can.

That’s not what this thread is about. There is another thread on that subject.

 

But for the record, he has served his suspension time.

 

The issue at hand is that USA Wrestling refuses to grant him a WC invite (which 6.2.2 of their bi-laws allow them to do -- with proper committee approvals). This shows that USA Wrestling is not truly committed to ensuring we have the best team at Worlds that gives us the best chance of defending our team title. And before you say it, sure there is a chance JO can get beat in WTTs. Stieber has given him some tough battles (in defeat each and every time) over the years, but you never know, maybe he would beat him (finally). Or may maybe one of the younger guys surprises him. But I'm willing to bet that virtually no-one in the Wrestling community would bet on anyone but JO to make the team if USAW wasn't being so stubborn (and/or lazy) and got him an invite.

 

 

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Edited by Angry_Fish

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Some may say USAW is REFUSING.... others might say the purpose of the wild card isn't to put someone in who missed the qualifiers due to an USADA ban, a precedent I don't think anyone wants to set, particular with the current state of doping control. I guess it would depend on how one would want to spin the situation.

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Some may say USAW is REFUSING.... others might say the purpose of the wild card isn't to put someone in who missed the qualifiers due to an USADA ban, a precedent I don't think anyone wants to set, particular with the current state of doping control. I guess it would depend on how one would want to spin the situation.

 

I would agree with that sentiment (regardless of the wrestler) if it was a steroid or a substance that ultimately was believed to benefit the wrestler's performance.  But in a situation when it was a prescription drug that the wrestler now is allowed to take (unconfirmed, but reported by FLO that an application was submitted --- which clearly would not have happened in the case of a Steroid or other performance enhancer) -- I would think this is EXACTLY the kind of situation where a WC makes sense to use.

 

He messed up by not submitting the proper p-work in advance and paid for it dearly by having to sacrifice a year of his prime.  I've never suggested he should have been punished for his error, but enough is enough.

 

More importantly though, USAW should be practice what they preach and do whatever is necessary (within the rules and their own bi-laws) to ensure we put the best team on the mat to bring home world medals.

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I understand that take, I really do. My opinion is just that, in the case of USADA and doping controls, with the current environment we're in, there can't be any leeway. It just opens a door I wouldn't want to see open. Violations and rules involving those controls should be completely cut and dry with no subjectivity. In this case, yes maybe it makes sense. But what about the next one, and the next one.

 

Additionally, if I'm not mistaken (and I could be) it's not just USAW that has to approve, but the USOC as well as they have to approve the selection procedures. That puts not opening that door on an even bigger scale.

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If USAW is concerned about getting the best team at the Worlds they'll also make special wrestle-offs for guys like Retherford, Mark Hall, Maple, etc that suit whatever they want in order to participate. 

 

Missing the qualifying events due to a drug suspension no matter how you want to spin it shouldn't allow you to receive a special exemption to wrestle at the World Team Trials.

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I understand that take, I really do. My opinion is just that, in the case of USADA and doping controls, with the current environment we're in, there can't be any leeway. It just opens a door I wouldn't want to see open. Violations and rules involving those controls should be completely cut and dry with no subjectivity. In this case, yes maybe it makes sense. But what about the next one, and the next one.

 

Additionally, if I'm not mistaken (and I could be) it's not just USAW that has to approve, but the USOC as well as they have to approve the selection procedures. That puts not opening that door on an even bigger scale.

 

Reasonable take in paragraph 1, even thought I don't agree with all of it.

 

I don't think paragraph 2 is correct, but concede I have not researched it to confirm.  I think USOC only dictates rules about who is eligible for countries to send, not how they select them (e.g. - if JO was still suspended by USADA, then USAW could not send him even if they wanted).  I am thinking about how Russia has often just sent whoever they wanted, regardless of Russian competition results.

Edited by Angry_Fish

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If USAW is concerned about getting the best team at the Worlds they'll also make special wrestle-offs for guys like Retherford, Mark Hall, Maple, etc that suit whatever they want in order to participate. 

 

Missing the qualifying events due to a drug suspension no matter how you want to spin it shouldn't allow you to receive a special exemption to wrestle at the World Team Trials.

 

I don't know enough details about the guys you mention to comment about any of them specifically, but do agree with the point that USAW can only go so far to accommodate those with extenuating circumstances (even when trying to ensure the best guys are on the team).  The difference in JO's case is that they are not being asked to hold any special events on different dates (or anything like that) for him.  All they have to do is invite him to an event already scheduled.

 

Completely disagree on paragraph 2, but I know many share your opinion.  Putting JO aside, I think that we (the Sporting World) have gone SO far to keep PEDs out of sports that we are creating irrational and unjust situations.  I can cite some NFL examples but I don't want to go down a rabbit trail.  The situation reminds me of a book I read years ago called "The Death of Common Sense" that details how over regulation creates situations that, while well intentioned, cause situations that fly in the face of rationale thought (it was not a sports book --- was based more about laws and industry).   JO's case seems to fall right into that trap.

 

Any way, I really look forward him to wrestling the Russian.  And if he wins, it will make USAW's decision look that much more foolish in some people's eyes. 

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Reasonable take in paragraph 1, even thought I don't agree with all of it.

 

I don't think paragraph 2 is correct, but concede I have not researched it to confirm. I think USOC only dictates rules about who is eligible for countries to send, not how they select them (e.g. - if JO was still suspended by USADA, then USAW could not send him even if they wanted). I am thinking about how Russia has often just sent whoever they wanted, regardless of Russian competition results.

I do know USOC has to approve selection procedures (I've worked out there in the past) but they don't neccessarily dictate. Given that I would assume they would have to approve an exception to procedures. But again that part of it I don't not know.

 

Just out of curiosity why don't you agree at all with paragraph 1? You don't think that starts a slippery slope?

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JO's suspension was for one year.  Unfortunately that covered the US Nationals.  Now, the US Nationals could have been scheduled a week or two later and JO would have been able to participate.  He barely missed it.  But that does not preclude that he could make the trials in another way.  In past years there were numerous tounaments that were OTT or WTT qualifiers.  Not this year. 

 

My opinion:  JO served his 1 year.  To not allow him into the WTT's would essentially be artificially extending the sentence another 6 months until the Farrell or Schultz.  That is beyond the spirit of the suspension in my opinion.  He is of such caliber he should be included in the WTT.  I don't think he will win it.  But he should not be excluded artificially. 

 

The way to fix this properly is to bring back the additional WTT/OTT qualification tourneys.  Heck, Lewboo went to one and won 2 before losing, way past his prime.  I loved it and thought he did awesome.  Why not JO who is still in his prime? 

 

mspart

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I don't know enough details about the guys you mention to comment about any of them specifically, but do agree with the point that USAW can only go so far to accommodate those with extenuating circumstances (even when trying to ensure the best guys are on the team).  The difference in JO's case is that they are not being asked to hold any special events on different dates (or anything like that) for him.  All they have to do is invite him to an event already scheduled.

 

Completely disagree on paragraph 2, but I know many share your opinion.  Putting JO aside, I think that we (the Sporting World) have gone SO far to keep PEDs out of sports that we are creating irrational and unjust situations.  I can cite some NFL examples but I don't want to go down a rabbit trail.  The situation reminds me of a book I read years ago called "The Death of Common Sense" that details how over regulation creates situations that, while well intentioned, cause situations that fly in the face of rationale thought (it was not a sports book --- was based more about laws and industry).   JO's case seems to fall right into that trap.

 

Any way, I really look forward him to wrestling the Russian.  And if he wins, it will make USAW's decision look that much more foolish in some people's eyes. 

If the suspension was so unjust and beyond common sense he should have appealed it an made sure that he'd be able to participate this year. The USADA has procedures in place for a reason. 

 

JO's suspension was for one year.  Unfortunately that covered the US Nationals.  Now, the US Nationals could have been scheduled a week or two later and JO would have been able to participate.  He barely missed it.  But that does not preclude that he could make the trials in another way.  In past years there were numerous tounaments that were OTT or WTT qualifiers.  Not this year. 

 

My opinion:  JO served his 1 year.  To not allow him into the WTT's would essentially be artificially extending the sentence another 6 months until the Farrell or Schultz.  That is beyond the spirit of the suspension in my opinion.  He is of such caliber he should be included in the WTT.  I don't think he will win it.  But he should not be excluded artificially. 

 

The way to fix this properly is to bring back the additional WTT/OTT qualification tourneys.  Heck, Lewboo went to one and won 2 before losing, way past his prime.  I loved it and thought he did awesome.  Why not JO who is still in his prime? 

 

mspart

False, he can wrestle in international and domestic events as of this week. If he was invited he could even go to Pan Am's this weekend. His suspension is for 365 days, which is a year. If you get popped at the US Open it is very reasonable to assume you could miss two world championships.

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If the suspension was so unjust and beyond common sense he should have appealed it an made sure that he'd be able to participate this year. The USADA has procedures in place for a reason. 

 

False, he can wrestle in international and domestic events as of this week. If he was invited he could even go to Pan Am's this weekend. His suspension is for 365 days, which is a year. If you get popped at the US Open it is very reasonable to assume you could miss two world championships.

 

Just for argument's sake, Bob: It seems what bothers most people is that JO (and a lot of fans) assumed that there would be a post-US Open qualifier in 2018, much like there had been in the past. Gilman famously almost lost in the 2017 Last Chance finals before winning a world medal, Dake beat a high schooler to qualify through Northeast Regionals in 2013 (when Burroughs almost sat out with an injury), etc. 

 

At the time of his suspension, JO wouldn't have appealed because he probably made the (reasonable) assumption that he could find another path to the WTT after his one year suspension ended. 

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Just for argument's sake, Bob: It seems what bothers most people is that JO (and a lot of fans) assumed that there would be a post-US Open qualifier in 2018, much like there had been in the past. Gilman famously almost lost in the 2017 Last Chance finals before winning a world medal, Dake beat a high schooler to qualify through Northeast Regionals in 2013 (when Burroughs almost sat out with an injury), etc. 

 

At the time of his suspension, JO wouldn't have appealed because he probably made the (reasonable) assumption that he could find another path to the WTT after his one year suspension ended. 

It still opens a can of worms for others to plead their case for things that I would say are better circumstances...

-Guys can say they are injured and would have been able to wrestle at the last chance

-College guys could say they had a big test or finals the week of the US Open and would have been able to wrestle at the last chance

-Guys could have claimed to have been sick at the US Open and thus would have been healthy at the last chance

 

They could have also changed the qualifiers in that the US Open was two or three weeks ago and the last chance was last weekend. Counting on the last chance qualifier as your only hope is a tough one for me to justify a special spot at the World Team Trials.

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It still opens a can of worms for others to plead their case for things that I would say are better circumstances...

-Guys can say they are injured and would have been able to wrestle at the last chance

-College guys could say they had a big test or finals the week of the US Open and would have been able to wrestle at the last chance

-Guys could have claimed to have been sick at the US Open and thus would have been healthy at the last chance

 

They could have also changed the qualifiers in that the US Open was two or three weeks ago and the last chance was last weekend. Counting on the last chance qualifier as your only hope is a tough one for me to justify a special spot at the World Team Trials.

 

Well, they have had last chance qualifiers since I can remember.  This is the first time without that I know of in the last 20 years or so.  It is not unreasonable for JO to think that they would have had them this year.  I'm not saying this was his calculus, but you are clearly not looking at past history here.

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clearly, JO should not have broken the rules of the sport he CHOOSES to participate in... 

 

no one has the "right" to participate... they earn it...

 

these are lesson that should be learned at about 9 years old... clearly there has been plenty of suspect parenting in the past...

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I agree with your statements.  However, he is off suspension now.  At the time, I'm guessing he figured he could make a last chance tourney and win it and get into the WTT's.  If that is the case, it is unfortunate for him that this is the first year without such tourneys in recent memory (at least my memory). 

 

mspart

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I am not a fan of JO, never followed him.  I don't think he would make the team anyway.  But I think the process for him to continue competing stinks in not allowing him a chance to make the WTT's (which are after his suspension) when in the past this has always been the case.  USAW should give him an outright invitation based on his past success at WTT's.  Runner up 3 years is pretty elite.

 

mspart

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