Only 5 of 31 lineups full at European Greco finals..sign of things to come?

[maligned 409]

With the 10-weight system, only 5 of 31 nations have full lineups at the prestigious European Championships in Greco. Many consistent medal-winning Greco nations only sent 6 to 9 guys (Armenia, Belarus, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Germany, Hungary, Lithuania, Poland, Serbia, Sweden). Will we see the same trend on the World level in all styles?

[2td3nf 458]

Were the rosters full for those countries when they had 8 weight classes?

 

Maybe it's a money thing or they're just sending only guys that have a shot? Just a guess.

[wfan24 172]

I suspect its latter. On another note, I can't wait for the freestyle matches. What I noticed on the telecast was that the arena was not full, and this is in Dagestan. I guess Greco is not that popular even there. I saw an interview with Karelin too which pointed to that problem as well, popularity of Greco in Russia. Overall, its hard for me to watch Greco, many patches are mostly pushing and occasionally a turn when in par-terre...

[olddirty 259]

Its a high cost.  You are required to pay a lot to go, flying way out to Dagestan, stay 3 days before your competition through the conclusions, and send extra required referees for the increased amount of competitors.  Keeping guys home who have zero chance at winning saves big time.  Sending 2 extra guys can cost you 6k. 

[de4856 342]

Well hopefully the arena gets packed when Men Freestyle starts.

[wfan24 172]

I suspect it will. Greco is a tough sport but is unbearable to watch, especially with 2 athletes with about the same skills/strength. I don't expect Greco to stay in the Olympics much longer unfortunately, also considering lack of women's categories.

[GockeS 245]

how many guys are willing to cut or gain to the WORLD weights, when they have to return every 4 years to the OLYMPIC weights

[maligned 409]

I wasn't trying to make a knock on Greco. I was just trying to note that there were some less-than-full lineups and I wondered if the 10 weight classes were causing it.

 

On further inspection, for comparison's sake, it's most fair to look back at the same event in the same year in the last Olympic cycle: the 2014 European Championships.

 

The 15 top participation nations in Greco this year filled 84% of weights compared to 89% by the same group of nations in 2014, and there were only 5 full teams compared to 9 in 2014. But that very well could be the Dagestan effect, rather than the 10-weight effect. There were only 50 wrestlers from 16 other nations this year in Greco compared to 74 wrestlers from 21 additional nations in 2014. 

[Gantry 1,357]

how many guys are willing to cut or gain to the WORLD weights, when they have to return every 4 years to the OLYMPIC weights

 

Um, lots...

[Coach_J 1,829]

Shocked to see only 8 guys at 55 kilos.  Not even half a tournament.

[LJB 737]

i chuckle everytime i hear some one say greco is unbearable to watch... 

 

those same people think playing the edge, backing straight out of bounds, and laying on some one for a minute to be entertaining... i can only assume they think sitcoms and american idol are quality programming as well...

 

anyway... the ostriches should watch vlasov and nemes final from today at 77... it is possibly the clearest example of the war greco is i have seen recently... shows how important  real par terre offense and defense is... how important mat awareness is... how important technique is... how important the entire match is...a true thing of beauty... 

[GockeS 245]

Um, lots...

im just thinking about the number of guys taken out by weight changes a few years ago... the cut or gain was too much

i point to cary kolat and lincoln mcilravy 

would they have competed if the 10 weights were cut, but then brought back a few years later for worlds but not olympics?

[Abdullahgadzhi Khuzin 1,383]

With the 10-weight system, only 5 of 31 nations have full lineups at the prestigious European Championships in Greco. Many consistent medal-winning Greco nations only sent 6 to 9 guys (Armenia, Belarus, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Germany, Hungary, Lithuania, Poland, Serbia, Sweden). Will we see the same trend on the World level in all styles?

in World i think top countries send 10 of 10 wrestlers. Many countries don't have good wrestlers in every weight classes

[Abdullahgadzhi Khuzin 1,383]

Shocked to see only 8 guys at 55 kilos.  Not even half a tournament.

we saw this in Paris GP in every weight classes. 55 kilos...there not many wrestlers, usually in this weight, many wrestlers from Asia. In pan-ams 55 kilos greco...will they have 8 wrestlers???

[Abdullahgadzhi Khuzin 1,383]

I wasn't trying to make a knock on Greco. I was just trying to note that there were some less-than-full lineups and I wondered if the 10 weight classes were causing it.

 

On further inspection, for comparison's sake, it's most fair to look back at the same event in the same year in the last Olympic cycle: the 2014 European Championships.

 

The 15 top participation nations in Greco this year filled 84% of weights compared to 89% by the same group of nations in 2014, and there were only 5 full teams compared to 9 in 2014. But that very well could be the Dagestan effect, rather than the 10-weight effect. There were only 50 wrestlers from 16 other nations this year in Greco compared to 74 wrestlers from 21 additional nations in 2014. 

i think there plays the role of politics. For example, the United Kingdom refused to participate. Ukraine could refuse, but they changed their choice. I think the European wrestler would not want to die in Dagestan! VERY dangerous place like in Compton Cali LOL joke 

[Tofurky 501]

i chuckle everytime i hear some one say greco is unbearable to watch... 

 

those same people think playing the edge, backing straight out of bounds, and laying on some one for a minute to be entertaining... i can only assume they think sitcoms and american idol are quality programming as well...

 

anyway... the ostriches should watch vlasov and nemes final from today at 77... it is possibly the clearest example of the war greco is i have seen recently... shows how important  real par terre offense and defense is... how important mat awareness is... how important technique is... how important the entire match is...a true thing of beauty... 

 

https://twitter.com/wrestling/media - scroll through some of the videos here. Greco Roman is a beautiful form of sport when performed at the highest level.

[maligned 409]

i think there plays the role of politics. For example, the United Kingdom refused to participate. Ukraine could refuse, but they changed their choice. I think the European wrestler would not want to die in Dagestan! VERY dangerous place like in Compton Cali LOL joke 

 

I think it's more about the cost for many of the countries that didn't send people or didn't send as many people. It's much quicker and cheaper for many countries to fly to most places in Europe than Dagestan. There are only about 15% less nations than normal so I'm not sure there's a big political effect except for the UK.

 

About your earlier point that "top teams will fill 10 of 10 weights"...I don't know if you saw my original post, but only 5 teams filled all weights. Armenia and Hungary, for example, are always two of the top 5 or 7 teams in Greco but they don't have full teams at the european championships. I wonder if we will see the same thing for some top teams in freestyle at the world championships. Some teams with less budget like Bulgaria or Belarus who often win medals might only send 8 people, for example.

[Workers` Wrestling 10]

i think there plays the role of politics. For example, the United Kingdom refused to participate. Ukraine could refuse, but they changed their choice. I think the European wrestler would not want to die in Dagestan! VERY dangerous place like in Compton Cali LOL joke 

 

Do you UK wrestlers participate at all (regardless of politics)?

[maligned 409]

Do you UK wrestlers participate at all (regardless of politics)?

 

Between the 4 nations of Wales, Scotland, England, and Northern Ireland, the UK had 10 participants in the 6 men's weights and 2 participants in the 6 women's weights at the Commonwealth Games last month in Australia. That event is a pseudo Olympics for many of the nations participating (a really big deal), so that's probably about the max participation you'd expect from them.

[Workers` Wrestling 10]

That`s interesting. I always wondered about UK`s neglect of wrestling considering its prominence in judo.

[GranbyTroll 388]

i chuckle everytime i hear some one say greco is unbearable to watch... 

 

[snip]

 

anyway... the ostriches should watch vlasov and nemes final from today at 77... it is possibly the clearest example of the war greco is i have seen recently... shows how important  real par terre offense and defense is... how important mat awareness is... how important technique is... how important the entire match is...a true thing of beauty... 

 

Vlasov is an especially bad example for Greco being "watchable." The only points that Vlasov scored that didn't come from forced par terre were a step out in the semis, and a step out in the quarters. And to top it off, Vlasov got to put his opponent in forced par terre in all of his four matches, but only got put down once, in the finals. 

 

R16 (10-0): 1 passivity, 4 feet to back, 2 correct throw, 2 foul, 1 lost challenge

Quarters (4-0): 1 passivity, 2 exposure, 1 step out

Semis (4-0): 1 passivity, 2 correct throw, 1 step out

Finals (5-1): 1 passivity, 4 feet to back, opponent scored 1 passivity

 

Bolded are the only points scored in all four of Vlasov's matches that did not result from the referee awarding Vlasov forced par terre. 

[LJB 737]

the number of points scored is not an indicator of the quality of wrestling... just look at colon v garret... lots of points... sloppy wrestling...

 

par terre is important... vlasov's par terre game is legit... both defense and offense... his matches are never dull... to be fair, i only watched the finals, so, it would be silly of me to comment on his other matches, but, that finals match was beautiful... action at all times... both got their chance at par terre, but, only one did the damn thing...

[GranbyTroll 388]

the number of points scored is not an indicator of the quality of wrestling

 

That's a straw man argument. I never said that Vlasov matches lack in points scored. What I did say is that Vlasov (barring 2 step outs) exclusively scored when the referee put his opponent into forced par terre. The guy is an Olympic champion and yet he went four straight matches without earning more than a step out on his feet. And to make it even worse, in 2/3 of his matches that went the distance, the officals didn't even give his opponents a chance on top. 

 

Greco right now is like every match is a Ramos match. 

 

EDIT: phrasing

Edited May 3, 2018 by GranbyTroll

[LJB 737]

i am not sure you understand what a strawman argument really is...

[GranbyTroll 388]

I wrote a post about how the lack of scoring on the feet makes Greco unwatchable. You responded with

the number of points scored is not an indicator of the quality of wrestling...

then brought up Colon vs Garret. I never mentioned the number of points scored in bouts as a factor that made Greco unwatchable.

 

I never went to law school or anything like that, but I believe a straw man argument is when you argue against a position that your opponent never took. Creating a position to argue against that can't respond back to you is akin to erecting a straw man to argue against.

Edited May 3, 2018 by GranbyTroll