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Why Kids Not Wrestling

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I find it interesting that the dad made a comment on the amount of time it takes to be competitive. I think that amount of time is virtually identical in most sports. Soccer for instance can be very expensive and there are places where kids wanting to make the high school team are highly "encouraged" to be on a specific travel team.

 

As the Ray man said, we need to rethink our competitions. In my parts the weeknight friendly duals are extremely popular and the Saturday events are dying a slow death.

 

Except for talent. A guy like you are me, in our prime, might've had to play soccer or baseball for a year or two before we were actually useful on the field. But then somebody like Pele comes along and blows the whole curve. I've seen it happen in wrestling, too.

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Except for talent. A guy like you are me, in our prime, might've had to play soccer or baseball for a year or two before we were actually useful on the field. But then somebody like Pele comes along and blows the whole curve. I've seen it happen in wrestling, too.

I was in the room here one day… watchin’ the Mexican channel on TV. I don’t know nothin’ about Pele. I’m watchin’ what this guy can do with a ball and his feet. Next thing I know, he jumps in the air and flips into a somersault and kicks the ball in – upside down and backwards… the goddamn goalie never knew what the **** hit him. Pele gets excited and he rips off his jersey and starts running around the stadium waving it around his head. Everybody’s screaming in Spanish. I’m here, sitting alone in my room, and I start crying.

 

That’s right, I start crying. Because another human being, a species that I happen to belong to, could kick a ball, and lift himself, and the rest of us sad-assed human beings, up to a better place to be, if only for a minute…

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Someone has to wrestle the tough kid first...all sports work that way

 

Actually no other sports work that way. If you face a baseball team with an elite pitcher everyone faces the same kid. And usually that kid wants to play on a club team against other club players. There are different circuits that are more clearly defined. Also, you don’t have to wait for 4 hours and pay $100 to get only one at bat against that pitcher. This is true for all team sports.

For individual sports, in track you are in heats with a bunch of dudes and even if you can’t win you can try to set a personal best. I don’t know much about tennis but again I know you don’t wait 4 hours to play for 30 seconds

The wrestling model is totally flawed.

 

Yes, all sports work that way that seed tournaments - which almost all are these days. That being the case, someone has to go against the toughest team or person first. Even in baseball, some team has to play the #1 team first which usually has the best or one of the best starting pitchers.Tennis - seeded tournaments - someone plays #1 first round...Football playoffs - someone plays #1 first round...Volleyball, who gets the #1 team first? The last seed who is 2-32. Not sure what you don't understand about how seeding and bracketing works. 

 

I don't disagree with you that the model of tournaments is not the best - if you read the rest of my post earlier I agreed with you. But the nature of sports is that teams and players are seeded accordingly. That's the way it works. Should there be a wrestle back - yes I already stated that. 

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I was in the room here one day… watchin’ the Mexican channel on TV. I don’t know nothin’ about Pele. I’m watchin’ what this guy can do with a ball and his feet. Next thing I know, he jumps in the air and flips into a somersault and kicks the ball in – upside down and backwards… the goddamn goalie never knew what the **** hit him. Pele gets excited and he rips off his jersey and starts running around the stadium waving it around his head. Everybody’s screaming in Spanish. I’m here, sitting alone in my room, and I start crying.

 

That’s right, I start crying. Because another human being, a species that I happen to belong to, could kick a ball, and lift himself, and the rest of us sad-assed human beings, up to a better place to be, if only for a minute…

 

 

Hope...it's dangerous MadMardigain.  You become institutionalized. 

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But that is true in every other sport. I was a lightweight and never wrestled a short fat kid. Now it's common and they either get decked in seconds or get abused.

 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

Yes, it is true in every other sport, but in nearly every other sport they separate "Rec" and "Club" so the gap is not nearly as wide on a regular basis. Because we really cant/dont separate the two in wrestling the gap is more consistently that wide. 

 

I'm not saying clubs are bad, I'm rather indifferent. I think our issue has a lot to do with tournament structure at the youth level, and there are various problems to it. Its not exactly rookie friendly. Of course a new comer is going to take some lumps and its a hard pill for a kid that young to swallow (also why I'm indifferent to competing at super young ages) But when a kid gets smacked up in match 1 by some NUWAY Diaper nationals stud after waiting in a gym for 3 hours then turns around and gets beat again by  a slightly more experienced "rec" kid cant exactly blame them for being disheartened and wanting to do something they find to be more fun.  

Edited by iGranby

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Yes, it is true in every other sport, but in nearly every other sport they separate "Rec" and "Club" so the gap is not nearly as wide on a regular basis. Because we really cant/dont separate the two in wrestling the gap is more consistently that wide. 

 

I'm not saying clubs are bad, I'm rather indifferent. I think our issue has a lot to do with tournament structure at the youth level, and there are various problems to it. Its not exactly rookie friendly. Of course a new comer is going to take some lumps and its a hard pill for a kid that young to swallow (also why I'm indifferent to competing at super young ages) But when a kid gets smacked up in match 1 by some NUWAY Diaper nationals stud after waiting in a gym for 3 hours then turns around and gets beat again by  a slightly more experienced "rec" kid cant exactly blame them for being disheartened and wanting to do something they find to be more fun.  

 

I think you are on to something with the "not rookie friendly" thing.  I remember my son, who I wanted badly to experience winning, getting pounded time after time at tournaments when he was younger.  He put in his time at the club and was trying his hardest, but he was big for his age and matured a lot later.  That led to a lot of frustration on his part, and I know I didn't help when he was sensing my frustration too.  Watching him sit by himself dejectedly after giving it his all and losing again and again was tough.  I really questioned if I was doing the right thing, and my family questioned it as well.

 

I was able to win early on, so for me wrestling was enjoyable for that reason. For kids who take longer to experience winning, it can be pure drudgery and humiliation. I learned to coach kids to think realistically and incrementally about their progress and not get too frustrated.  It's a process; survive, compete, win.  That can take time, sometimes a LOT of time.  In the meantime, while they are getting pounded, you have to stay positive.  Find something good in every match, even if it amounts to telling them how brave they were to step out on the mat with a national champion stud who pinned them in 10 seconds.

 

Not every kid has the heart of a warrior to persevere on his own ambition and resolve.  We, as parents and coaches, need to make sure we are doing the right things so young wrestlers understand their experiences and can put things into the right context, especially during that "rookie" phase.

 

I am now pretty much getting toward the "old coot" phase of my life, so take what I have to offer if it fits and leave the rest.

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I think you are on to something with the "not rookie friendly" thing.  I remember my son, who I wanted badly to experience winning, getting pounded time after time at tournaments when he was younger.  He put in his time at the club and was trying his hardest, but he was big for his age and matured a lot later.  That led to a lot of frustration on his part, and I know I didn't help when he was sensing my frustration too.  Watching him sit by himself dejectedly after giving it his all and losing again and again was tough.  I really questioned if I was doing the right thing, and my family questioned it as well.

 

I was able to win early on, so for me wrestling was enjoyable for that reason. For kids who take longer to experience winning, it can be pure drudgery and humiliation. I learned to coach kids to think realistically and incrementally about their progress and not get too frustrated.  It's a process; survive, compete, win.  That can take time, sometimes a LOT of time.  In the meantime, while they are getting pounded, you have to stay positive.  Find something good in every match, even if it amounts to telling them how brave they were to step out on the mat with a national champion stud who pinned them in 10 seconds.

 

Not every kid has the heart of a warrior to persevere on his own ambition and resolve.  We, as parents and coaches, need to make sure we are doing the right things so young wrestlers understand their experiences and can put things into the right context, especially during that "rookie" phase.

 

I am now pretty much getting toward the "old coot" phase of my life, so take what I have to offer if it fits and leave the rest.

how long did  you coach?

you sound like a great coach.

 

but not enough people think like you and I anymore.

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Singlets.  Its all about singlets.  Get rid of the singlet and the sport will take off like nothing we've ever seen before. 

they told me to get rid of the morning workouts before school.

 

excuses. 

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I think you are on to something with the "not rookie friendly" thing.  I remember my son, who I wanted badly to experience winning, getting pounded time after time at tournaments when he was younger.  He put in his time at the club and was trying his hardest, but he was big for his age and matured a lot later.  That led to a lot of frustration on his part, and I know I didn't help when he was sensing my frustration too.  Watching him sit by himself dejectedly after giving it his all and losing again and again was tough.  I really questioned if I was doing the right thing, and my family questioned it as well.

 

I was able to win early on, so for me wrestling was enjoyable for that reason. For kids who take longer to experience winning, it can be pure drudgery and humiliation. I learned to coach kids to think realistically and incrementally about their progress and not get too frustrated.  It's a process; survive, compete, win.  That can take time, sometimes a LOT of time.  In the meantime, while they are getting pounded, you have to stay positive.  Find something good in every match, even if it amounts to telling them how brave they were to step out on the mat with a national champion stud who pinned them in 10 seconds.

 

Not every kid has the heart of a warrior to persevere on his own ambition and resolve.  We, as parents and coaches, need to make sure we are doing the right things so young wrestlers understand their experiences and can put things into the right context, especially during that "rookie" phase.

 

I am now pretty much getting toward the "old coot" phase of my life, so take what I have to offer if it fits and leave the rest.

 

Much respect for the kids that hung around even when it was apparent wrestling wasn't their thing. I'd have definitely quit and moved on if I wasn't successful.

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The youth dual meet system in NJ also is killing the depth of the sport. Most kids participate in a K-6 league or a K-8 league or both. Age isn’t a factor. So you get a decent 80 pounder who is 10 years old wrestling 12 and 13 year olds and getting pinned in 20 seconds. It’s just stupid. These leagues all have postseason tourneys that again don’t take age into account at all. It is just asinine. For your average, decent athlete seasonal wrestler there are very few reasonable places to wrestle. In the leagues you get significantly older kids and then in the tourneys it’s all club kids because the seasonal kids are wrestling during the week and those parents aren’t sitting in a gym for 10 hours on the weekend

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The youth dual meet system in NJ also is killing the depth of the sport. Most kids participate in a K-6 league or a K-8 league or both. Age isn’t a factor. So you get a decent 80 pounder who is 10 years old wrestling 12 and 13 year olds and getting pinned in 20 seconds. It’s just stupid. These leagues all have postseason tourneys that again don’t take age into account at all. It is just asinine. For your average, decent athlete seasonal wrestler there are very few reasonable places to wrestle. In the leagues you get significantly older kids and then in the tourneys it’s all club kids because the seasonal kids are wrestling during the week and those parents aren’t sitting in a gym for 10 hours on the weekend

 

 

Now that is pretty stupid...every sport I know of is age related unless a kid is good enough and elects to play up an age group. 

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I think you are on to something with the "not rookie friendly" thing.  I remember my son, who I wanted badly to experience winning, getting pounded time after time at tournaments when he was younger.  He put in his time at the club and was trying his hardest, but he was big for his age and matured a lot later.  That led to a lot of frustration on his part, and I know I didn't help when he was sensing my frustration too.  Watching him sit by himself dejectedly after giving it his all and losing again and again was tough.  I really questioned if I was doing the right thing, and my family questioned it as well.

 

I was able to win early on, so for me wrestling was enjoyable for that reason. For kids who take longer to experience winning, it can be pure drudgery and humiliation. I learned to coach kids to think realistically and incrementally about their progress and not get too frustrated.  It's a process; survive, compete, win.  That can take time, sometimes a LOT of time.  In the meantime, while they are getting pounded, you have to stay positive.  Find something good in every match, even if it amounts to telling them how brave they were to step out on the mat with a national champion stud who pinned them in 10 seconds.

 

Not every kid has the heart of a warrior to persevere on his own ambition and resolve.  We, as parents and coaches, need to make sure we are doing the right things so young wrestlers understand their experiences and can put things into the right context, especially during that "rookie" phase.

 

I am now pretty much getting toward the "old coot" phase of my life, so take what I have to offer if it fits and leave the rest.

 

I think your post pretty well describes how difficult it can be to "get in to" the sport if you dont win, or are not naturally gifted right out of the gate as well as how to deal with those situations as a coach or parent.  

 

Its going to be hard no matter what, and some kids aren't "for" the sport and what it takes, or require more molding, coaching, what have you to prepare them for the challenges and hurdles they will face in the sport and in life.

 

I do think ways can be found to help make entry level participants have a slightly more even ground in our sport, but its never going to be easy and wins should not be handed out to anyone. I don't believe in participation trophies, at least not for simply showing up to an event. Kiddos need to learn that success = reward. But I do also believe in the idea that little kids should learn they are rewarded for putting in effort, and finishing what they start and for committing to something. So give them a certificate or something for being a part of the team for the whole season. I think that took me a long way, and I've seen it mold a lot of kids who wouldnt have made it otherwise (at least I dont think.)

 

I rambled off there a bit, sorry lol. 

 

I agree with you at the end of the day.  

Edited by iGranby

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Not sure if this was mentioned, but one reason why kids aren't wrestling might be because parents don't see a viable path to a D1 college scholarship in the future - partly because of program cuts and partly because of the total # of scholarships available for wrestlers. Maybe this is all delusional thinking on the part of parents, and isn't really something that wrestling can solve in the near-term anyway, but it might be why participation suffers.

 

One of my girl friends, a single mom, got her son into baseball where he plays on a local team and "travel team" (with complex schemes to get him playing for little league all-star teams from places like New Mexico and Arizona) with the specific goal of one day landing a college scholarship. It's where they think he has the best opportunity for a full-ride to college. The same might apply to parents who get their kids playing sports like men's soccer, track and swimming where it is seen as a more viable path than say, basketball or football. Even sports like tennis and golf, which offer fewer scholarships per program, might be seen as attractive options because there so many athletic scholarships available due to the large number of D1 programs out there.

 

It makes me wonder what the odds are of a kid getting an athletic scholarship for wrestling vs. other sports. Other sports may have more scholarships in total, but I get the feeling that wrestling might be attractive because it's probably a smaller pool of athletes comparatively. 

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Not sure if this was mentioned, but one reason why kids aren't wrestling might be because parents don't see a viable path to a D1 college scholarship in the future - partly because of program cuts and partly because of the total # of scholarships available for wrestlers. Maybe this is all delusional thinking on the part of parents, and isn't really something that wrestling can solve in the near-term anyway, but it might be why participation suffers.

 

One of my girl friends, a single mom, got her son into baseball where he plays on a local team and "travel team" (with complex schemes to get him playing for little league all-star teams from places like New Mexico and Arizona) with the specific goal of one day landing a college scholarship. It's where they think he has the best opportunity for a full-ride to college. The same might apply to parents who get their kids playing sports like men's soccer, track and swimming where it is seen as a more viable path than say, basketball or football. Even sports like tennis and golf, which offer fewer scholarships per program, might be seen as attractive options because there so many athletic scholarships available due to the large number of D1 programs out there.

 

It makes me wonder what the odds are of a kid getting an athletic scholarship for wrestling vs. other sports. Other sports may have more scholarships in total, but I get the feeling that wrestling might be attractive because it's probably a smaller pool of athletes comparatively. 

Baseball is kind of similar to wrestling in that D1 has 11.7 scholarships, with the average D1 roster about 35 players.  The odds are not good that you get a "full" ride in baseball.  There are more than 11 pitchers on a team, yet alone total players.

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INTEREST KILLERS FOR WRESTLING:

Length of Tournaments (all day, sometimes 2 days nearly every weekend from Nov/Dec to Mar)

Year Round Wrestling (kids can't be kids/no time off, constant training/camps/tournaments, one sport specialization)

Diminished Emphasis on Dual Meet Rivalries (ergo, more tournaments/quads/tri's)

Hard to Understand/Follow the Rules (constantly changing, way to technical)

Too Much Wrestling (40,50,60 matches a season)

Negative Perception of Weight Cutting

Too Hard/demanding/tough

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Baseball is kind of similar to wrestling in that D1 has 11.7 scholarships, with the average D1 roster about 35 players.  The odds are not good that you get a "full" ride in baseball.  There are more than 11 pitchers on a team, yet alone total players.

 

Definitely. I think the maximum scholarship allocation for baseball is closer to 25ish with a minimum 1/4 scholarship per player which is still very tough. It probably helps a little that there are about 4x the number of D1 baseball programs than wrestling though. 

 

 

EDIT: I looked up the scholarship #s and it looks like the average scholarship amounts are about the same for D1 wrestling and baseball (~$13K) but the odds of landing a scholarship are a bit higher for baseball than wrestling because the chances of competing in D1 are a better for baseball, plus there's like 4.6x the number of athletic scholarships available:

2,448 (1.0%] of 244,804 US high school wrestlers competing in D1 for 752.4 wrestling scholarships vs. 10,328 (2.1%) of 491,790 US high school baseball players competing in D1 for 3,474.9 baseball scholarships in 2016-17. 

 

From http://www.scholarshipstats.com/ - pretty interesting site. Check out the scholarship #s for Ice Hockey btw, that looks like the way to go...

Edited by pamela

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Definitely. I think the maximum scholarship allocation for baseball is closer to 25ish with a minimum 1/4 scholarship per player which is still very tough. It probably helps a little that there are about 4x the number of D1 baseball programs than wrestling though. 

 

 

EDIT: I looked up the scholarship #s and it looks like the average scholarship amounts are about the same for D1 wrestling and baseball (~$13K) but the odds of landing a scholarship are a bit higher for baseball than wrestling because the chances of competing in D1 are a better for baseball, plus there's like 4.6x the number of athletic scholarships available:

 

2,448 (1.0%] of 244,804 US high school wrestlers competing in D1 for 752.4 wrestling scholarships vs. 10,328 (2.1%) of 491,790 US high school baseball players competing in D1 for 3,474.9 baseball scholarships in 2016-17. 

 

From http://www.scholarshipstats.com/ - pretty interesting site. Check out the scholarship #s for Ice Hockey btw, that looks like the way to go...

If I am reading this correctly, these numbers assume 76 D1 wrestling programs all offering the limit 9.9 scholarships. This can't be correct as we all know many programs are less than fully funded. I would guess the actual number closer to 500, but definitely not 752.4.

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If I am reading this correctly, these numbers assume 76 D1 wrestling programs all offering the limit 9.9 scholarships. This can't be correct as we all know many programs are less than fully funded. I would guess the actual number closer to 500, but definitely not 752.4.

You're reading it correctly.

 

However, the Air Force Academy, USNA and West Point have every wrestler on 100% "scholarship". Each of those rosters are above 45 wrestlers.

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Subject: Interesting Wrestling Article...not sure it belongs in this thread but I was intrigued with the contrasts, lessons, perceptions, messaging, etc., of there vs. here.

 

 

A Wrestling Culture That Helps Keep Boys Away From Fighting

Simple question. Once upon a time Italians and Irish used to dominate boxing.

 

Why not now and do you think it pertains to wrestling today?

 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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You're reading it correctly.

 

However, the Air Force Academy, USNA and West Point have every wrestler on 100% "scholarship". Each of those rosters are above 45 wrestlers.

I'm confused, are you suggesting these numbers are inflated due to roughly 135 athletes who are attending D1 service academies? I don't think this is the case. Your (correct) statement and the points in the prior discussion seem unrelated.

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Definitely. I think the maximum scholarship allocation for baseball is closer to 25ish with a minimum 1/4 scholarship per player which is still very tough. It probably helps a little that there are about 4x the number of D1 baseball programs than wrestling though. 

 

 

EDIT: I looked up the scholarship #s and it looks like the average scholarship amounts are about the same for D1 wrestling and baseball (~$13K) but the odds of landing a scholarship are a bit higher for baseball than wrestling because the chances of competing in D1 are a better for baseball, plus there's like 4.6x the number of athletic scholarships available:

2,448 (1.0%] of 244,804 US high school wrestlers competing in D1 for 752.4 wrestling scholarships vs. 10,328 (2.1%) of 491,790 US high school baseball players competing in D1 for 3,474.9 baseball scholarships in 2016-17. 

 

From http://www.scholarshipstats.com/ - pretty interesting site. Check out the scholarship #s for Ice Hockey btw, that looks like the way to go...

 

The number of scholarships for NCAA D1 baseball is 11.7 for a 35 man roster.

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