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Why Kids Not Wrestling


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#41 iGranby

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 03:30 AM

Why do we as a sport expect athletes to commit to wrestling at such a young age?  Why can't we take the same approach, recreational baseball, basketball, etc take?  

 

I have no clue honestly. I agree with you, and I personally think that year-round wrestling shouldnt even be considered until HS. Even then, I am very against telling kids on your HS team to stick to one sport, especially if $$ is an issue in your athletic dept. 

 

I will say that the idea of totally separating "rec" wrestling and "club" wrestling is not so simple in wrestling because of the way open tournaments work. You can kind of mitigate the chances of running into a youth kid who's "too" good but having a rec league and facilitating duals only within the leaue (no clubs or individuals...etc) Even then, you get kids who do both rec and club (which I am also against at that age).

 

Unfortunately it's a complicated system - youth wrestling that is. A lot of it comes from a mix of the "old school" mentality our sport carries, and the complexity it has always had.

 

Numbers is an issues as well. In rec soccer for example, one city or suburb can facilitate lets say 6 teams - in wrestling if we tried that youd probably have 6 teams of 5-10 kids. Hence why your suburb has one "feeder" program/team that feeds into your HS. Which is a reason why open tournaments are necessary - you want all of those kids in your program to get matches, right? Not all will fit in your weekly league dual.  


Edited by iGranby, 14 May 2018 - 03:40 AM.


#42 Tofurky

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 03:36 AM

The year round club wrestler that gets his jollies pounding Rec kids is actually killing the sport. These type of kids are around in most sports but in team sport having one or two kids like that isn’t the same as an individual sport. And those club kids in team sports tend to play on club teams against other club teams so the normal kids can play against other multi sport kids. In wrestling, at least in PA and NJ, there is no middle class. There are beginner tourneys and then opens. In the open tourneys that 3 sport kid who is a good athlete but doesn’t wrestle in a club 4 nights a week gets hammered. And of course they are all money makers. There is no bigger disgrace than the NJ USA wrestling kids states where kids are paying close to $100 (for USA card and the tourney fee) to enter a single elimination tourney where, until you have placed in the states you are likely to run into a state place winner your first match

. Little Johnny’s parents pay the $100, go have him weigh in Friday night (kills an hour or more) and then sit around 4 hours on Sunday til he finally wrestles. Gets pinned in a minute, no wrestleback. Signs up for lacrosse the next day and who can blame him?

 

Something similar to this happened to my nephew. He is a standout football player for his age in his area and I convinced my sister that wrestling would help him improve even more, especially since he is already playing one side of the ball (defense). For as athletic as he is, he tried wrestling and in his first two tournaments went up against some real age group hammers from a nationally recognized club. By Thanksgiving he was back to playing basketball with his friends and told me that he won't ever go back to wrestling.

 

I tried to convince him to stick it out, but he even asked me how he was going to make up that much time and technique to be competitive, at a club even he knew wasn't on the level of this other one I previously mentioned. It wasn't worth it to him, or my sister, and he said he'd rather spend more time becoming better at football or spending time playing pick up basketball with his friends. I felt bad for him and I didn't want him to hate the sport, but his experience was more than I could do to change his mind.



#43 paboom

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 03:56 AM

Look, when you have the military and large city police departments complaining that there are fewer and fewer quality recruits because of obesity, criminal records and a general lack of physical fitness (kids who can't do a push up but aren't obese) it's going to trickle down to tougher sports like wrestling.

Kids always got their butts kicked by the tougher kids, club kids are not a factor.



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#44 iGranby

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 03:59 AM

Look, when you have the military and large city police departments complaining that there are fewer and fewer quality recruits because of obesity, criminal records and a general lack of physical fitness (kids who can't do a push up but aren't obese) it's going to trickle down to tougher sports like wrestling.

Kids always got their butts kicked by the tougher kids, club kids are not a factor.



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I dont disagree necessarily. But to say that elite club kids dont play an additional role in everything is a bit silly - the bad kid is always the floor, and that does not move. Kid are getting better and better at younger ages, and more kids are getting better at those younger ages, the ceiling gets higher, and harder to reach.  


Edited by iGranby, 14 May 2018 - 04:00 AM.


#45 BobDole

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 04:28 AM

The year round club wrestler that gets his jollies pounding Rec kids is actually killing the sport. These type of kids are around in most sports but in team sport having one or two kids like that isn’t the same as an individual sport. And those club kids in team sports tend to play on club teams against other club teams so the normal kids can play against other multi sport kids. In wrestling, at least in PA and NJ, there is no middle class. There are beginner tourneys and then opens. In the open tourneys that 3 sport kid who is a good athlete but doesn’t wrestle in a club 4 nights a week gets hammered. And of course they are all money makers. There is no bigger disgrace than the NJ USA wrestling kids states where kids are paying close to $100 (for USA card and the tourney fee) to enter a single elimination tourney where, until you have placed in the states you are likely to run into a state place winner your first match

. Little Johnny’s parents pay the $100, go have him weigh in Friday night (kills an hour or more) and then sit around 4 hours on Sunday til he finally wrestles. Gets pinned in a minute, no wrestleback. Signs up for lacrosse the next day and who can blame him?

Why are the NJ USA events a one and done deal? That is stupid.



#46 gimpeltf

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 05:27 AM

Why are the NJ USA events a one and done deal? That is stupid.

 

Kids Folkstyle States are full double with no fee.

 

Qualifiers are single elim. They are $70 pre or $80 walkin IF you include the USA Card.



#47 BobDole

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 05:34 AM

Kids Folkstyle States are full double with no fee.

 

Qualifiers are single elim. They are $70 pre or $80 walkin IF you include the USA Card.

That's dumb.....



#48 GockeS

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 06:08 AM

how about just take him to some club practices.

dont enter a tournament.

after a few years they will be able to compete a little better.


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#49 paboom

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 07:44 AM

I dont disagree necessarily. But to say that elite club kids dont play an additional role in everything is a bit silly - the bad kid is always the floor, and that does not move. Kid are getting better and better at younger ages, and more kids are getting better at those younger ages, the ceiling gets higher, and harder to reach.

But that is true in every other sport. I was a lightweight and never wrestled a short fat kid. Now it's common and they either get decked in seconds or get abused.

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Edited by paboom, 14 May 2018 - 07:46 AM.


#50 gowrestle

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 08:45 AM

Why isn't it a good idea? Is it because the assumption is that said wrestler was wrestling 10 months a year for 14 years? What if I said, he wrestled three months out of the year for the first 10 years practicing 2-3X a week, and the last fours as a high school athlete just during wrestling season?


Good question. What matters most is how it is handled.

#51 TobusRex

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 09:35 AM

I find it interesting that the dad made a comment on the amount of time it takes to be competitive. I think that amount of time is virtually identical in most sports. Soccer for instance can be very expensive and there are places where kids wanting to make the high school team are highly "encouraged" to be on a specific travel team.

 

As the Ray man said, we need to rethink our competitions. In my parts the weeknight friendly duals are extremely popular and the Saturday events are dying a slow death.

 

Except for talent. A guy like you are me, in our prime, might've had to play soccer or baseball for a year or two before we were actually useful on the field. But then somebody like Pele comes along and blows the whole curve. I've seen it happen in wrestling, too.



#52 MadMardigain

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 09:58 AM

Except for talent. A guy like you are me, in our prime, might've had to play soccer or baseball for a year or two before we were actually useful on the field. But then somebody like Pele comes along and blows the whole curve. I've seen it happen in wrestling, too.


I was in the room here one day… watchin’ the Mexican channel on TV. I don’t know nothin’ about Pele. I’m watchin’ what this guy can do with a ball and his feet. Next thing I know, he jumps in the air and flips into a somersault and kicks the ball in – upside down and backwards… the goddamn goalie never knew what the **** hit him. Pele gets excited and he rips off his jersey and starts running around the stadium waving it around his head. Everybody’s screaming in Spanish. I’m here, sitting alone in my room, and I start crying.

That’s right, I start crying. Because another human being, a species that I happen to belong to, could kick a ball, and lift himself, and the rest of us sad-assed human beings, up to a better place to be, if only for a minute…
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#53 Idaho

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 10:33 AM

Someone has to wrestle the tough kid first...all sports work that way

 

Actually no other sports work that way. If you face a baseball team with an elite pitcher everyone faces the same kid. And usually that kid wants to play on a club team against other club players. There are different circuits that are more clearly defined. Also, you don’t have to wait for 4 hours and pay $100 to get only one at bat against that pitcher. This is true for all team sports.

For individual sports, in track you are in heats with a bunch of dudes and even if you can’t win you can try to set a personal best. I don’t know much about tennis but again I know you don’t wait 4 hours to play for 30 seconds

The wrestling model is totally flawed.

 

Yes, all sports work that way that seed tournaments - which almost all are these days. That being the case, someone has to go against the toughest team or person first. Even in baseball, some team has to play the #1 team first which usually has the best or one of the best starting pitchers.Tennis - seeded tournaments - someone plays #1 first round...Football playoffs - someone plays #1 first round...Volleyball, who gets the #1 team first? The last seed who is 2-32. Not sure what you don't understand about how seeding and bracketing works. 

 

I don't disagree with you that the model of tournaments is not the best - if you read the rest of my post earlier I agreed with you. But the nature of sports is that teams and players are seeded accordingly. That's the way it works. Should there be a wrestle back - yes I already stated that. 



#54 Idaho

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 10:34 AM

I was in the room here one day… watchin’ the Mexican channel on TV. I don’t know nothin’ about Pele. I’m watchin’ what this guy can do with a ball and his feet. Next thing I know, he jumps in the air and flips into a somersault and kicks the ball in – upside down and backwards… the goddamn goalie never knew what the **** hit him. Pele gets excited and he rips off his jersey and starts running around the stadium waving it around his head. Everybody’s screaming in Spanish. I’m here, sitting alone in my room, and I start crying.

That’s right, I start crying. Because another human being, a species that I happen to belong to, could kick a ball, and lift himself, and the rest of us sad-assed human beings, up to a better place to be, if only for a minute…

 

 

Hope...it's dangerous MadMardigain.  You become institutionalized. 



#55 iGranby

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 11:52 PM

But that is true in every other sport. I was a lightweight and never wrestled a short fat kid. Now it's common and they either get decked in seconds or get abused.

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Yes, it is true in every other sport, but in nearly every other sport they separate "Rec" and "Club" so the gap is not nearly as wide on a regular basis. Because we really cant/dont separate the two in wrestling the gap is more consistently that wide. 

 

I'm not saying clubs are bad, I'm rather indifferent. I think our issue has a lot to do with tournament structure at the youth level, and there are various problems to it. Its not exactly rookie friendly. Of course a new comer is going to take some lumps and its a hard pill for a kid that young to swallow (also why I'm indifferent to competing at super young ages) But when a kid gets smacked up in match 1 by some NUWAY Diaper nationals stud after waiting in a gym for 3 hours then turns around and gets beat again by  a slightly more experienced "rec" kid cant exactly blame them for being disheartened and wanting to do something they find to be more fun.  


Edited by iGranby, 14 May 2018 - 11:53 PM.


#56 ClawRide

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 05:44 AM

Yes, it is true in every other sport, but in nearly every other sport they separate "Rec" and "Club" so the gap is not nearly as wide on a regular basis. Because we really cant/dont separate the two in wrestling the gap is more consistently that wide. 

 

I'm not saying clubs are bad, I'm rather indifferent. I think our issue has a lot to do with tournament structure at the youth level, and there are various problems to it. Its not exactly rookie friendly. Of course a new comer is going to take some lumps and its a hard pill for a kid that young to swallow (also why I'm indifferent to competing at super young ages) But when a kid gets smacked up in match 1 by some NUWAY Diaper nationals stud after waiting in a gym for 3 hours then turns around and gets beat again by  a slightly more experienced "rec" kid cant exactly blame them for being disheartened and wanting to do something they find to be more fun.  

 

I think you are on to something with the "not rookie friendly" thing.  I remember my son, who I wanted badly to experience winning, getting pounded time after time at tournaments when he was younger.  He put in his time at the club and was trying his hardest, but he was big for his age and matured a lot later.  That led to a lot of frustration on his part, and I know I didn't help when he was sensing my frustration too.  Watching him sit by himself dejectedly after giving it his all and losing again and again was tough.  I really questioned if I was doing the right thing, and my family questioned it as well.

 

I was able to win early on, so for me wrestling was enjoyable for that reason. For kids who take longer to experience winning, it can be pure drudgery and humiliation. I learned to coach kids to think realistically and incrementally about their progress and not get too frustrated.  It's a process; survive, compete, win.  That can take time, sometimes a LOT of time.  In the meantime, while they are getting pounded, you have to stay positive.  Find something good in every match, even if it amounts to telling them how brave they were to step out on the mat with a national champion stud who pinned them in 10 seconds.

 

Not every kid has the heart of a warrior to persevere on his own ambition and resolve.  We, as parents and coaches, need to make sure we are doing the right things so young wrestlers understand their experiences and can put things into the right context, especially during that "rookie" phase.

 

I am now pretty much getting toward the "old coot" phase of my life, so take what I have to offer if it fits and leave the rest.


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#57 WRfan1

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 08:23 AM

Singlets.  Its all about singlets.  Get rid of the singlet and the sport will take off like nothing we've ever seen before. 


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#58 GockeS

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 08:43 AM

I think you are on to something with the "not rookie friendly" thing.  I remember my son, who I wanted badly to experience winning, getting pounded time after time at tournaments when he was younger.  He put in his time at the club and was trying his hardest, but he was big for his age and matured a lot later.  That led to a lot of frustration on his part, and I know I didn't help when he was sensing my frustration too.  Watching him sit by himself dejectedly after giving it his all and losing again and again was tough.  I really questioned if I was doing the right thing, and my family questioned it as well.

 

I was able to win early on, so for me wrestling was enjoyable for that reason. For kids who take longer to experience winning, it can be pure drudgery and humiliation. I learned to coach kids to think realistically and incrementally about their progress and not get too frustrated.  It's a process; survive, compete, win.  That can take time, sometimes a LOT of time.  In the meantime, while they are getting pounded, you have to stay positive.  Find something good in every match, even if it amounts to telling them how brave they were to step out on the mat with a national champion stud who pinned them in 10 seconds.

 

Not every kid has the heart of a warrior to persevere on his own ambition and resolve.  We, as parents and coaches, need to make sure we are doing the right things so young wrestlers understand their experiences and can put things into the right context, especially during that "rookie" phase.

 

I am now pretty much getting toward the "old coot" phase of my life, so take what I have to offer if it fits and leave the rest.

how long did  you coach?

you sound like a great coach.

 

but not enough people think like you and I anymore.



#59 GockeS

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 08:44 AM

Singlets.  Its all about singlets.  Get rid of the singlet and the sport will take off like nothing we've ever seen before. 

they told me to get rid of the morning workouts before school.

 

excuses. 



#60 TobusRex

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:11 PM

I think you are on to something with the "not rookie friendly" thing.  I remember my son, who I wanted badly to experience winning, getting pounded time after time at tournaments when he was younger.  He put in his time at the club and was trying his hardest, but he was big for his age and matured a lot later.  That led to a lot of frustration on his part, and I know I didn't help when he was sensing my frustration too.  Watching him sit by himself dejectedly after giving it his all and losing again and again was tough.  I really questioned if I was doing the right thing, and my family questioned it as well.

 

I was able to win early on, so for me wrestling was enjoyable for that reason. For kids who take longer to experience winning, it can be pure drudgery and humiliation. I learned to coach kids to think realistically and incrementally about their progress and not get too frustrated.  It's a process; survive, compete, win.  That can take time, sometimes a LOT of time.  In the meantime, while they are getting pounded, you have to stay positive.  Find something good in every match, even if it amounts to telling them how brave they were to step out on the mat with a national champion stud who pinned them in 10 seconds.

 

Not every kid has the heart of a warrior to persevere on his own ambition and resolve.  We, as parents and coaches, need to make sure we are doing the right things so young wrestlers understand their experiences and can put things into the right context, especially during that "rookie" phase.

 

I am now pretty much getting toward the "old coot" phase of my life, so take what I have to offer if it fits and leave the rest.

 

Much respect for the kids that hung around even when it was apparent wrestling wasn't their thing. I'd have definitely quit and moved on if I wasn't successful.






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