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Why Kids Not Wrestling


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#61 TobusRex

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:11 PM

Singlets.  Its all about singlets.  Get rid of the singlet and the sport will take off like nothing we've ever seen before. 

 

No way, man. We'd be NAKED without the singlets!


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#62 JerseyJoey

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 11:19 AM

The youth dual meet system in NJ also is killing the depth of the sport. Most kids participate in a K-6 league or a K-8 league or both. Age isn’t a factor. So you get a decent 80 pounder who is 10 years old wrestling 12 and 13 year olds and getting pinned in 20 seconds. It’s just stupid. These leagues all have postseason tourneys that again don’t take age into account at all. It is just asinine. For your average, decent athlete seasonal wrestler there are very few reasonable places to wrestle. In the leagues you get significantly older kids and then in the tourneys it’s all club kids because the seasonal kids are wrestling during the week and those parents aren’t sitting in a gym for 10 hours on the weekend
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#63 Idaho

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 01:10 PM

The youth dual meet system in NJ also is killing the depth of the sport. Most kids participate in a K-6 league or a K-8 league or both. Age isn’t a factor. So you get a decent 80 pounder who is 10 years old wrestling 12 and 13 year olds and getting pinned in 20 seconds. It’s just stupid. These leagues all have postseason tourneys that again don’t take age into account at all. It is just asinine. For your average, decent athlete seasonal wrestler there are very few reasonable places to wrestle. In the leagues you get significantly older kids and then in the tourneys it’s all club kids because the seasonal kids are wrestling during the week and those parents aren’t sitting in a gym for 10 hours on the weekend

 

 

Now that is pretty stupid...every sport I know of is age related unless a kid is good enough and elects to play up an age group. 



#64 iGranby

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 11:32 PM

I think you are on to something with the "not rookie friendly" thing.  I remember my son, who I wanted badly to experience winning, getting pounded time after time at tournaments when he was younger.  He put in his time at the club and was trying his hardest, but he was big for his age and matured a lot later.  That led to a lot of frustration on his part, and I know I didn't help when he was sensing my frustration too.  Watching him sit by himself dejectedly after giving it his all and losing again and again was tough.  I really questioned if I was doing the right thing, and my family questioned it as well.

 

I was able to win early on, so for me wrestling was enjoyable for that reason. For kids who take longer to experience winning, it can be pure drudgery and humiliation. I learned to coach kids to think realistically and incrementally about their progress and not get too frustrated.  It's a process; survive, compete, win.  That can take time, sometimes a LOT of time.  In the meantime, while they are getting pounded, you have to stay positive.  Find something good in every match, even if it amounts to telling them how brave they were to step out on the mat with a national champion stud who pinned them in 10 seconds.

 

Not every kid has the heart of a warrior to persevere on his own ambition and resolve.  We, as parents and coaches, need to make sure we are doing the right things so young wrestlers understand their experiences and can put things into the right context, especially during that "rookie" phase.

 

I am now pretty much getting toward the "old coot" phase of my life, so take what I have to offer if it fits and leave the rest.

 

I think your post pretty well describes how difficult it can be to "get in to" the sport if you dont win, or are not naturally gifted right out of the gate as well as how to deal with those situations as a coach or parent.  

 

Its going to be hard no matter what, and some kids aren't "for" the sport and what it takes, or require more molding, coaching, what have you to prepare them for the challenges and hurdles they will face in the sport and in life.

 

I do think ways can be found to help make entry level participants have a slightly more even ground in our sport, but its never going to be easy and wins should not be handed out to anyone. I don't believe in participation trophies, at least not for simply showing up to an event. Kiddos need to learn that success = reward. But I do also believe in the idea that little kids should learn they are rewarded for putting in effort, and finishing what they start and for committing to something. So give them a certificate or something for being a part of the team for the whole season. I think that took me a long way, and I've seen it mold a lot of kids who wouldnt have made it otherwise (at least I dont think.)

 

I rambled off there a bit, sorry lol. 

 

I agree with you at the end of the day.  


Edited by iGranby, 16 May 2018 - 11:44 PM.


#65 pamela

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 07:40 AM

Not sure if this was mentioned, but one reason why kids aren't wrestling might be because parents don't see a viable path to a D1 college scholarship in the future - partly because of program cuts and partly because of the total # of scholarships available for wrestlers. Maybe this is all delusional thinking on the part of parents, and isn't really something that wrestling can solve in the near-term anyway, but it might be why participation suffers.

 

One of my girl friends, a single mom, got her son into baseball where he plays on a local team and "travel team" (with complex schemes to get him playing for little league all-star teams from places like New Mexico and Arizona) with the specific goal of one day landing a college scholarship. It's where they think he has the best opportunity for a full-ride to college. The same might apply to parents who get their kids playing sports like men's soccer, track and swimming where it is seen as a more viable path than say, basketball or football. Even sports like tennis and golf, which offer fewer scholarships per program, might be seen as attractive options because there so many athletic scholarships available due to the large number of D1 programs out there.

 

It makes me wonder what the odds are of a kid getting an athletic scholarship for wrestling vs. other sports. Other sports may have more scholarships in total, but I get the feeling that wrestling might be attractive because it's probably a smaller pool of athletes comparatively. 



#66 jchapman

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 08:19 AM

Not sure if this was mentioned, but one reason why kids aren't wrestling might be because parents don't see a viable path to a D1 college scholarship in the future - partly because of program cuts and partly because of the total # of scholarships available for wrestlers. Maybe this is all delusional thinking on the part of parents, and isn't really something that wrestling can solve in the near-term anyway, but it might be why participation suffers.

 

One of my girl friends, a single mom, got her son into baseball where he plays on a local team and "travel team" (with complex schemes to get him playing for little league all-star teams from places like New Mexico and Arizona) with the specific goal of one day landing a college scholarship. It's where they think he has the best opportunity for a full-ride to college. The same might apply to parents who get their kids playing sports like men's soccer, track and swimming where it is seen as a more viable path than say, basketball or football. Even sports like tennis and golf, which offer fewer scholarships per program, might be seen as attractive options because there so many athletic scholarships available due to the large number of D1 programs out there.

 

It makes me wonder what the odds are of a kid getting an athletic scholarship for wrestling vs. other sports. Other sports may have more scholarships in total, but I get the feeling that wrestling might be attractive because it's probably a smaller pool of athletes comparatively. 

Baseball is kind of similar to wrestling in that D1 has 11.7 scholarships, with the average D1 roster about 35 players.  The odds are not good that you get a "full" ride in baseball.  There are more than 11 pitchers on a team, yet alone total players.


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#67 patmilkovich

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 09:06 AM

INTEREST KILLERS FOR WRESTLING:

Length of Tournaments (all day, sometimes 2 days nearly every weekend from Nov/Dec to Mar)

Year Round Wrestling (kids can't be kids/no time off, constant training/camps/tournaments, one sport specialization)

Diminished Emphasis on Dual Meet Rivalries (ergo, more tournaments/quads/tri's)

Hard to Understand/Follow the Rules (constantly changing, way to technical)

Too Much Wrestling (40,50,60 matches a season)

Negative Perception of Weight Cutting

Too Hard/demanding/tough



#68 pamela

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 11:49 AM

Baseball is kind of similar to wrestling in that D1 has 11.7 scholarships, with the average D1 roster about 35 players.  The odds are not good that you get a "full" ride in baseball.  There are more than 11 pitchers on a team, yet alone total players.

 

Definitely. I think the maximum scholarship allocation for baseball is closer to 25ish with a minimum 1/4 scholarship per player which is still very tough. It probably helps a little that there are about 4x the number of D1 baseball programs than wrestling though. 

 

 

EDIT: I looked up the scholarship #s and it looks like the average scholarship amounts are about the same for D1 wrestling and baseball (~$13K) but the odds of landing a scholarship are a bit higher for baseball than wrestling because the chances of competing in D1 are a better for baseball, plus there's like 4.6x the number of athletic scholarships available:

2,448 (1.0%] of 244,804 US high school wrestlers competing in D1 for 752.4 wrestling scholarships vs. 10,328 (2.1%) of 491,790 US high school baseball players competing in D1 for 3,474.9 baseball scholarships in 2016-17. 

 

From http://www.scholarshipstats.com/ - pretty interesting site. Check out the scholarship #s for Ice Hockey btw, that looks like the way to go...


Edited by pamela, 17 May 2018 - 12:11 PM.


#69 BigTenFanboy

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 12:42 PM

There's also a lot more opportunities in baseball to go pro with their countless minor leagues.
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#70 JHRoseWrestling

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 05:31 PM

Definitely. I think the maximum scholarship allocation for baseball is closer to 25ish with a minimum 1/4 scholarship per player which is still very tough. It probably helps a little that there are about 4x the number of D1 baseball programs than wrestling though. 
 
 
EDIT: I looked up the scholarship #s and it looks like the average scholarship amounts are about the same for D1 wrestling and baseball (~$13K) but the odds of landing a scholarship are a bit higher for baseball than wrestling because the chances of competing in D1 are a better for baseball, plus there's like 4.6x the number of athletic scholarships available:

2,448 (1.0%] of 244,804 US high school wrestlers competing in D1 for 752.4 wrestling scholarships vs. 10,328 (2.1%) of 491,790 US high school baseball players competing in D1 for 3,474.9 baseball scholarships in 2016-17. 

 
From http://www.scholarshipstats.com/ - pretty interesting site. Check out the scholarship #s for Ice Hockey btw, that looks like the way to go...

If I am reading this correctly, these numbers assume 76 D1 wrestling programs all offering the limit 9.9 scholarships. This can't be correct as we all know many programs are less than fully funded. I would guess the actual number closer to 500, but definitely not 752.4.
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#71 patmilkovich

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 12:36 AM

Subject: Interesting Wrestling Article...not sure it belongs in this thread but I was intrigued with the contrasts, lessons, perceptions, messaging, etc., of there vs. here.



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#72 Old_Marine_Wrestler

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 08:23 AM

If I am reading this correctly, these numbers assume 76 D1 wrestling programs all offering the limit 9.9 scholarships. This can't be correct as we all know many programs are less than fully funded. I would guess the actual number closer to 500, but definitely not 752.4.

You're reading it correctly.

 

However, the Air Force Academy, USNA and West Point have every wrestler on 100% "scholarship". Each of those rosters are above 45 wrestlers.


I like NIke but wait a minute, the sport supports so put some money in it


#73 paboom

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 10:34 AM

Subject: Interesting Wrestling Article...not sure it belongs in this thread but I was intrigued with the contrasts, lessons, perceptions, messaging, etc., of there vs. here.




A Wrestling Culture That Helps Keep Boys Away From Fighting

Simple question. Once upon a time Italians and Irish used to dominate boxing.

Why not now and do you think it pertains to wrestling today?

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#74 JHRoseWrestling

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 05:07 PM

You're reading it correctly.
 
However, the Air Force Academy, USNA and West Point have every wrestler on 100% "scholarship". Each of those rosters are above 45 wrestlers.


I'm confused, are you suggesting these numbers are inflated due to roughly 135 athletes who are attending D1 service academies? I don't think this is the case. Your (correct) statement and the points in the prior discussion seem unrelated.

#75 cbg

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Posted 19 May 2018 - 07:22 AM

Definitely. I think the maximum scholarship allocation for baseball is closer to 25ish with a minimum 1/4 scholarship per player which is still very tough. It probably helps a little that there are about 4x the number of D1 baseball programs than wrestling though. 

 

 

EDIT: I looked up the scholarship #s and it looks like the average scholarship amounts are about the same for D1 wrestling and baseball (~$13K) but the odds of landing a scholarship are a bit higher for baseball than wrestling because the chances of competing in D1 are a better for baseball, plus there's like 4.6x the number of athletic scholarships available:

2,448 (1.0%] of 244,804 US high school wrestlers competing in D1 for 752.4 wrestling scholarships vs. 10,328 (2.1%) of 491,790 US high school baseball players competing in D1 for 3,474.9 baseball scholarships in 2016-17. 

 

From http://www.scholarshipstats.com/ - pretty interesting site. Check out the scholarship #s for Ice Hockey btw, that looks like the way to go...

 

The number of scholarships for NCAA D1 baseball is 11.7 for a 35 man roster.



#76 pamela

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 03:09 AM

The number of scholarships for NCAA D1 baseball is 11.7 for a 35 man roster.

Right, but those 11.7 scholarships can only be allocated to a maximum of 26 players on the roster.

EDIT: I looked it up and the limit of players on scholarship for D1 baseball is actually 27, not 26.
http://www.scholarsh...ncaalimits.html

Edited by pamela, 20 May 2018 - 03:13 AM.


#77 cbg

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 05:54 AM

Right, but those 11.7 scholarships can only be allocated to a maximum of 26 players on the roster.

EDIT: I looked it up and the limit of players on scholarship for D1 baseball is actually 27, not 26.
http://www.scholarsh...ncaalimits.html

 

Unless things have changed (I am too lazy to look it up) the minimum amount that any one player may receive is 25%.  The successful teams put 75+% in the pitchers and most position players receive 25% or are walkons.  I personally know one 1st team All-SEC shortstop that was drafted and never received a dime until he was a 5th year senior.



#78 JerseyJoey

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 02:28 PM

Now that is pretty stupid...every sport I know of is age related unless a kid is good enough and elects to play up an age group.


Yes it is stupid and yes it is what we do in NJ. Most kids wrestle in leagues that are not age based. It is very common to see 3rd and 4th graders wrestling 6th graders ( and older) especially in that 60-80 pound range.

#79 AnklePicker

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 02:51 PM

Yes it is stupid and yes it is what we do in NJ. Most kids wrestle in leagues that are not age based. It is very common to see 3rd and 4th graders wrestling 6th graders ( and older) especially in that 60-80 pound range.


What are you talking about? In NJ we have tots, bantams, midgets, juniors and intermediates. Divisions are based on age. On middle school teams you might see 6th graders wrestling 8th graders but generally that’s because their coaches know they can handle it. You don’t see 3rd graders wrestling 6th graders.

#80 TobusRex

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 03:16 PM

Yes it is stupid and yes it is what we do in NJ. Most kids wrestle in leagues that are not age based. It is very common to see 3rd and 4th graders wrestling 6th graders ( and older) especially in that 60-80 pound range.

 

That's always been common. When I wrestled Elementary they threw us all out there, 1st-6th grades, on the same wrestling teams, although most of us were at least 3rd grade. That was in the 70's.






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