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#41 spladle

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 02:35 PM

Nobody would bat an eye at the conversation if it weren't for the fact that they know you're trying to illicit a reaction from that crowd.

And as for Slay, something was... different... about him that year. I can't quite pinpoint it, but I think it may have helped him beat Saitiev in Sydney...

Rather than implying that he was on roids in 2000, have some balls and come right out and say it. Didn't he test negative anyway?

Edited by spladle, 14 May 2018 - 02:35 PM.


#42 boconnell

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 03:52 PM

Saitiev was pretty arrogant and I think he expected to roll over Slay and pretty much anybody else.  Especially since Slay was an unknown, I don't think the Russians believed for a second that Slay was going to be in a close match, let alone win.  Just goes to show what can happen if you overlook somebody at that level.  Kind of interesting too how the US had 3 big upsets over defending world champions from Russia in those Olympics.  

It doesn't matter if the Russians believed it would be a match before hand.  They fully believed it would be close in OT when the match was decided.  This was not a case of some guy taking the Paris Grand Prix lightly.  This is a guy in the Olympics against a rival nation.  There is no way Russian Olympians are not up for matches against the USA.  They love to beat us and show their superiority.  

 

This isn't a guy taking Olympic matches lightly.  This is a guy losing to an unknown who he wasn't prepared for.  



#43 lu1979

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 12:56 AM

Here are three very bad choices for this list IMHO:

 

Brandon Slay- first, he beat the GOAT freestyle wrestler, in a legit way, not based on some obscure penalty point when the guy was almost 40 years old.  He blast doubled him to the mat multiple times.  Second, for whatever reason Slay was an entirely different wrestler that year.  He also beat Joe Williams who would have likely come home with a medal at that point imo. Williams barely lost to Satiev himself in 1998.  Had another super impressive win to make the final at Olympics I believe but cannot recall the details but maybe someone else can recall the credentials of who he beat in the semis. As for his loss to Leipold, man was that screwy.  This was back in the old upper body clinch era, they could give you a two point penalty on a whim for not letting your opponent get the best lock possible on you, and that's what happened here.  Then, they call Slay for grabbing fingers.  Two completely subjective penalties put him in a 3-0 hole.  That may not sound like much, but in an era where takedowns were one point, there was no pushout, and against a true defensive specialist, that was a hell of a whole to come back from.  I honestly felt like the match proved absolutely nothing other than the idiocy of FILA.  If he would have kept going I'd bet that he would have took home more world medals, he was a force at that point.  

 

Kerry McCoy- only took home one world medal, but was always a top contender he just never seemed to put it together at the right time.  I'd guess he's beaten a half dozen or more World Medalists.  Hell he kept two off the team right here in the USA including Stephen Neal, and in 1996 he was a hair behind Kurt Angle to make the team at 220. 

 

Jamill Kelly- Just a completely different wrestler in international freestyle than he was in college. Made the team twice over some VERY stiff domestic competition including Lincoln Mac and Bill Zadick in his prime. 

 

If the category is the more positive, "who came out of nowhere" as opposed to "worst", I'd say:

 

1. Eggum (a country Mile behind Cael and I don't think he was ever even our #2 guy other than this year).

2. M. Zadick (always a stud domestically but his style did not result in many high level wins other than the improbable run where he knocked off Batirov, amazing)

3. Gilman (within a point of elimination at the last chance qualifier to world finals, amazing)

4. Tolly Thompson (never beat Kerry McCoy outside of one time in college that I recall but wins a World Medal in his one shot whereas Kerry tended to fall a bit short most years). 

Slay didn't wrestle Joe Williams at the Olympic Team trials. Williams lost to Brian Dolph in the challenge tourney finals and Slay beat Dolph in the best of 3 finals.  Dolph was Slay's assistant coach at Penn and they had trained together a lot.  I do believe that Slay beat Williams at Nationals that year and that is why he was sitting in the finals.



#44 Lurker

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 01:23 AM

The Dolph trap arm...

#45 steamboat_charlie

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 01:27 AM

Rather than implying that he was on roids in 2000, have some balls and come right out and say it. Didn't he test negative anyway?

 

Yes, because it really takes balls for me to type: "Brandon Slay was using PEDs in 2000"

 

Lighten up, I was just making a joke.  


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#46 KTG119

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:01 AM

Slay didn't wrestle Joe Williams at the Olympic Team trials. Williams lost to Brian Dolph in the challenge tourney finals and Slay beat Dolph in the best of 3 finals.  Dolph was Slay's assistant coach at Penn and they had trained together a lot.  I do believe that Slay beat Williams at Nationals that year and that is why he was sitting in the finals.

vague recall of Slay hitting a big double leg on Williams at Nationals, ran him off the mat iirc



#47 jchapman

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:40 AM

vague recall of Slay hitting a big double leg on Williams at Nationals, ran him off the mat iirc

You are correct. I was there in Vegas and saw it for myself. Very impressive.

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#48 GranbyTroll

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 05:10 AM

So if Slay beat Williams, and Williams had a close one with Saitiev, then the Russians would have at least known that Slay was legit. 


Iowa fans are still arrogant; it's just that their team isn't as good.


#49 GranbyTroll

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 05:12 AM

Nobody would bat an eye at the conversation if it weren't for the fact that they know you're trying to illicit a reaction from that crowd.  

 

 

If by "illicit a reaction from that crowd" you meant "share the research that Granby did with the community to have a conversation about the greats of our sport" then you're spot on! 


Iowa fans are still arrogant; it's just that their team isn't as good.


#50 TripNSweep

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 05:43 AM

So if Slay beat Williams, and Williams had a close one with Saitiev, then the Russians would have at least known that Slay was legit. 

 

Or that the Russians know how our trials works and we don't just pick our guy and send him.  We've left guys home who could have won world/Olympic medals because they happened to run into somebody at the trials who was a bad matchup for them, or just got hot at the right time.  McCoy beat Neal, but Neal was a world champion already and the best McCoy ever did was a silver in 2003.  Hazewinkel beat Simmons who was 5th at worlds the year before and had beaten defending Olympic champ Cejudo.  I think Simmons would have done better.  Les Gutches lost to Charles Burton who still nearly medaled anyway.  The Russians know how unpredictable our system at the time was, and how it means whoever did well at one high stakes event got the Olympic team spot.  I really don't think Saitiev took Slay as a threat but realized that he was in trouble pretty soon and had to wrestle from a position of being behind that he wasn't used to being in very often.  


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#51 mspart

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 05:45 AM

Slay had an incredible tourney, even losing the finals, it was incredible.  To be even with Saitiev at the end of regulation must have been a motivator.  He knew he could do it, kept pounding Saitiev on the head just like the rest of the match and then took his shot.  Beautiful!  

 

He had a dream year that year. 

 

mspart



#52 mspart

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 05:47 AM

Or that the Russians know how our trials works and we don't just pick our guy and send him.  We've left guys home who could have won world/Olympic medals because they happened to run into somebody at the trials who was a bad matchup for them, or just got hot at the right time.  McCoy beat Neal, but Neal was a world champion already and the best McCoy ever did was a silver in 2003.  Hazewinkel beat Simmons who was 5th at worlds the year before and had beaten defending Olympic champ Cejudo.  I think Simmons would have done better.  Les Gutches lost to Charles Burton who still nearly medaled anyway.  The Russians know how unpredictable our system at the time was, and how it means whoever did well at one high stakes event got the Olympic team spot.  I really don't think Saitiev took Slay as a threat but realized that he was in trouble pretty soon and had to wrestle from a position of being behind that he wasn't used to being in very often.  

 

Burton beat Gutches because Gutches had a back issue that was killing him.  A healthy Gutches would have been at the Olympics that year.

 

mspart

 

PS - Yes, I'm a homer from the Pacific Northwest. 


Edited by mspart, 15 May 2018 - 05:50 AM.


#53 mspart

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 06:16 AM

You are correct. I was there in Vegas and saw it for myself. Very impressive.

 

I was there too and it was a serious freight train double. 

 

mspart



#54 TripNSweep

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 03:45 AM

Burton beat Gutches because Gutches had a back issue that was killing him.  A healthy Gutches would have been at the Olympics that year.

 

mspart

 

PS - Yes, I'm a homer from the Pacific Northwest. 

 

Gutches won the Open that year though.  Burton had a great tournament too. I think he beat Van Arsdale and Sanderson.  


Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls. Contrary to what you've just seen, war is neither glamorous nor fun. There are no winners, only losers. There are no good wars, with the following exceptions: The American Revolution, World War II, and the Star Wars Trilogy. If you'd like to learn more about war, there's lots of books in your local library, many of them with cool, gory pictures.

#55 KTG119

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 04:03 AM

I recall when seeing Slay's draw at the Games...well thanks for playing man but you're toast. 

 

In my book a bigger upset than Rulon beating Karelin.  



#56 GranbyTroll

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 04:26 AM

Karelin was at the end of his career, but Satiev went on to win two more Olympics. Slay was definitely the bigger upset of the two. That's why I ranked Slay ahead of Gilman, who has yet to beat anyone of note.


Iowa fans are still arrogant; it's just that their team isn't as good.


#57 steamboat_charlie

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 04:28 AM

If by "illicit a reaction from that crowd" you meant "share the research that Granby did with the community to have a conversation about the greats of our sport" then you're spot on! 

 

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#58 TripNSweep

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 12:29 PM

I recall when seeing Slay's draw at the Games...well thanks for playing man but you're toast. 

 

In my book a bigger upset than Rulon beating Karelin.  

 

Two of the big 3 upsets over defending world champions from Russia were in Greco that year. 


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Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls. Contrary to what you've just seen, war is neither glamorous nor fun. There are no winners, only losers. There are no good wars, with the following exceptions: The American Revolution, World War II, and the Star Wars Trilogy. If you'd like to learn more about war, there's lots of books in your local library, many of them with cool, gory pictures.

#59 boconnell

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 04:12 PM

Or that the Russians know how our trials works and we don't just pick our guy and send him.  We've left guys home who could have won world/Olympic medals because they happened to run into somebody at the trials who was a bad matchup for them, or just got hot at the right time.  McCoy beat Neal, but Neal was a world champion already and the best McCoy ever did was a silver in 2003.  Hazewinkel beat Simmons who was 5th at worlds the year before and had beaten defending Olympic champ Cejudo.  I think Simmons would have done better.  Les Gutches lost to Charles Burton who still nearly medaled anyway.  The Russians know how unpredictable our system at the time was, and how it means whoever did well at one high stakes event got the Olympic team spot.  I really don't think Saitiev took Slay as a threat but realized that he was in trouble pretty soon and had to wrestle from a position of being behind that he wasn't used to being in very often.  

Simmons was a 0X medalist.  I think he only made 1 world team.  He never medaled in a world age level event.  There are plenty of examples where the "wrong" guy went, but that isn't one of them.  Simmons couldn't score off his own offense (or even try his own offense for that matter), so there was no way he was going to string enough wins together at a world tournament by counter choking guys.  Hazewinkel and him were on very similar levels.  






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