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Fix and Lee have a world Silver medalist (Gilman) and a world team member (Ramos).  That is more than either Steveson or Zahid has to deal with.  

 

Hard disagree. Let's try a little nuance... not all medals are created equal.  Both Gwiazdowski and Dake have had more meaningful international (and domestic) wins than Gilman has ever had.  And let's not pretend Ramos is superior to Dake because he's made a world team... that's laughable.  

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Fix and Lee have a world Silver medalist (Gilman) and a world team member (Ramos).  That is more than either Steveson or Zahid has to deal with.  

Fix already beat Ramos and I think he will beat Gilman in June. I believe Fix and Lee are ready to compete with the worlds best at 57 kg.  I don't think Zahid is ready to beat the best US guys at 79 or 86 kg or the best guys internationally.  Gable would have to beat Gwiz and 2 of the best hvywts in recent history to win world or Olympic Gold.  

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Hard disagree. Let's try a little nuance... not all medals are created equal. Both Gwiazdowski and Dake have had more meaningful international (and domestic) wins than Gilman has ever had. And let's not pretend Ramos is superior to Dake because he's made a world team... that's laughable.

Agree with this 100 percent.

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Hard disagree. Let's try a little nuance... not all medals are created equal.  Both Gwiazdowski and Dake have had more meaningful international (and domestic) wins than Gilman has ever had.  And let's not pretend Ramos is superior to Dake because he's made a world team... that's laughable.  

What has Gwiz done to put him firmly ahead of Gilman?  What has any of the other heavies done to put them ahead of Ramos.  USA heavy is a very unproven group outside of Gwiz's one bronze.  And you can guess that Dake is better but he's never made a team.  Sure he was behind JB for most of those years (and behind bronze medalist Cox in the other year), but you can't just coat tail him to JB's medals because he gets 2nd in the USA.  

 

Maybe Gwiz/Coon and Dake/Dieringer is better than Gilman/Ramos, but not by much.  And to act like the difference between Fix/Lee and Steveson/Zahid is domestic competition is absurd (and that's the post I replied to).  Fix/Lee are simply a far higher level than the other two.

Edited by boconnell

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What has Gwiz done to put him firmly ahead of Gilman? What has any of the other heavies done to put them ahead of Ramos. USA heavy is a very unproven group outside of Gwiz's one bronze. And you can guess that Dake is better but he's never made a team. Sure he was behind JB for most of those years (and behind bronze medalist Cox in the other year), but you can't just coat tail him to JB's medals because he gets 2nd in the USA.

 

Maybe Gwiz/Coon and Dake/Dieringer is better than Gilman/Ramos, but not by much. And to act like the difference between Fix/Lee and Steveson/Zahid is domestic competition is absurd (and that's the post I replied to). Fix/Lee are simply a far higher level than the other two.

Dake has beaten world champions and medalists.

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Of course he has only lost to great people, but that said he has still beenmour world team rep 0 times so to act as if he has yet to be "dethroned" is just silly as he has never had a throne to begin with.

Only person in the last year to even sniff at Ringer was Dake in the 5-5 OPEN decision, and then Zahid just mauled him, in the first senior level event he has competed in at this new weight.

 

So to ridicule people for saying "wow wonder if Zahid will give Dake problems" by listening off all the people who he has beaten is silly.

 

Both Zahid and Dake have been our Senior rep at the world championships an equal number of times to this point.

Yup.

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I thought Zahid was a year away. I was wrong. He is where I thought he'd be next year. I won't make a definitive pick, but Zahid getting caught in body locks would surprise me. I see Dake going back to defense and a close win strategy. He has the ability to defend against those crisp shot of Zahids. But Zahid seems to have gotten very technical. Positional. Which works a high percentage of the time. Oh, and he can scramble with the best of them.

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Gable>fix and lee

You can't honestly think that.  Gable has lost 11-0 to coon and to Bradley and Toney Nelson.  None of those guys have ever made a world team and Nelson and Bradley never will.  Steveson is a near lock to be great one day but he probably doesn't crack the top 25 in the world right now.  

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You can't honestly think that.  Gable has lost 11-0 to coon and to Bradley and Toney Nelson.  None of those guys have ever made a world team and Nelson and Bradley never will.  Steveson is a near lock to be great one day but he probably doesn't crack the top 25 in the world right now.  

Maybe he means at the same age?  Isn't Gable only 17 still? You'd also expect it to be tougher for a heavyweight to adapt to the senior level given how hard it is to grow into the weight.  If you had to predict which of those three would end up with the most world/olympic gold medals, Steveson is probably the best bet.  I think he will be the U.S. rep as soon as next year, but definitely by 2020.  

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You can't honestly think that. Gable has lost 11-0 to coon and to Bradley and Toney Nelson. None of those guys have ever made a world team and Nelson and Bradley never will. Steveson is a near lock to be great one day but he probably doesn't crack the top 25 in the world right now.

I’m not defending his point but it is important to note that Gable is at hvwt. That is the hardest weight class for a young person by far

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I’m not defending his point but it is important to note that Gable is at hvwt. That is the hardest weight class for a young person by far

Super important point. 

the lightest weights depend a lot on quickness, flexibility, agility, etc.... which are more "youth based" traits..  

while the heaviest are more power and technique based which are often developed over time. 

 

Not saying the light weights are "technique free" or the heavies are "super slow" but you get the point. 

Takes awhile to gain the "man strength" of some of the most powerful 285 pound  men on the planet. 

 

And lets not forget the broad scope of competitors 214 to 285 I mean whew, you got to grow into the top end of that. 

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Super important point.

the lightest weights depend a lot on quickness, flexibility, agility, etc.... which are more "youth based" traits..

while the heaviest are more power and technique based which are often developed over time.

 

Not saying the light weights are "technique free" or the heavies are "super slow" but you get the point.

Takes awhile to gain the "man strength" of some of the most powerful 285 pound men on the planet.

 

And lets not forget the broad scope of competitors 214 to 285 I mean whew, you got to grow into the top end of that.

Kyle Snyder laughed at this comment. The upper weights tend to suck compared to the middle weights and lightweights.

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I 100% agree that Heavyweight is the hardest for a young guy.  I also agree that Steveson's ceiling is probably the highest of the young guys.  

 

But he's nowhere close to Fix or Lee right now.  And there's no guarantee he gets there.  And because JR heavy is so far from SR heavy, I think the JR results at that weight mean the least as predictors (at least among the adult sized weight classes/everything but 50 KG).  Such a large portion of SR heavy results comes down to physical strength that nobody has at 17-18, that it is hard to forecast who will have it at 25.  Plus Steveson's sky high ceiling is slightly tempered by his lack of height and length.  He will get far stronger and will put on weight, but he will always have a severe disadvantage against true monsters like Coon (or Coon sized guys from other countries with more skill).  

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Maybe he means at the same age? Isn't Gable only 17 still? You'd also expect it to be tougher for a heavyweight to adapt to the senior level given how hard it is to grow into the weight. If you had to predict which of those three would end up with the most world/olympic gold medals, Steveson is probably the best bet. I think he will be the U.S. rep as soon as next year, but definitely by 2020.

Yes, Gable is still 17 (nearly 18 though) and Fix is 20. Gable’s recent success certainly puts him a bit ahead of the curve, on an age-equivalent basis.

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Super important point. 

the lightest weights depend a lot on quickness, flexibility, agility, etc.... which are more "youth based" traits..  

while the heaviest are more power and technique based which are often developed over time. 

 

Not saying the light weights are "technique free" or the heavies are "super slow" but you get the point. 

Takes awhile to gain the "man strength" of some of the most powerful 285 pound  men on the planet. 

 

And lets not forget the broad scope of competitors 214 to 285 I mean whew, you got to grow into the top end of that. 

There is no way the heavier weights have more technique than the lighter ones.  The lighter weights have a far greater variety of technique while the heavier ones punish sloppy technique more because of body size.  Both require plenty of technique but the upper weights definitely don't have more.  

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There is no way the heavier weights have more technique than the lighter ones.  The lighter weights have a far greater variety of technique while the heavier ones punish sloppy technique more because of body size.  Both require plenty of technique but the upper weights definitely don't have more.  

I think this is veering into "moves" vs "Technique"

Maybe weight specific technique would have been a better way to word it. 

I don't think they know more moves, or are hitting inside trips or ducks.... 

I just think being able to continually score on a mountain of a human is a skill few heavies possess, its something you develop over time. 

Overall ,I think Lighter weight "technique" is the same from HS to the Pro's, you're just good at it or you aren't, the physical body in front of you isn't changing that much.

While Heavies at the top of the ladder is a whole new ball game. 

You said it in an earlier post when you said "Juniors is so far from Seniors"... to this point Gable has been able to out-athlete everyone he has faced. 

Coon however said, hey man I am big and have a wealth of knowledge on how to be big. 

So when i referenced "power and technique" I guess I just meant that, everyone has some go-to offense at the lighter weights  and they may get it once and not get it the next time, but at heavy, where points come at a premium, you need to re-learn what works on a 285lb man, because if your technique is sloppy the first time there may not be a second. 

 

 

Edited by spladle08

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I think this is veering into "moves" vs "Technique"

Maybe weight specific technique would have been a better way to word it.

I don't think they know more moves, or are hitting inside trips or ducks....

I just think being able to continually score on a mountain of a human is a skill few heavies possess, its something you develop over time.

Overall ,I think Lighter weight "technique" is the same from HS to the Pro's, you're just good at it or you aren't, the physical body in front of you isn't changing that much.

While Heavies at the top of the ladder is a whole new ball game.

You said it in an earlier post when you said "Juniors is so far from Seniors"... to this point Gable has been able to out-athlete everyone he has faced.

Coon however said, hey man I am big and have a wealth of knowledge on how to be big.

So when i referenced "power and technique" I guess I just meant that, everyone has some go-to offense at the lighter weights and they may get it once and not get it the next time, but at heavy, where points come at a premium, you need to re-learn what works on a 285lb man, because if your technique is sloppy the first time there may not be a second.

 

 

To summarize, heavyweight techniques had better be refined, precise, and patient. Something Snyder learned (relearned) in his loss to Coon.

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To summarize, heavyweight techniques had better be refined, precise, and patient. Something Snyder learned (relearned) in his loss to Coon.

In that sense, a high school and collegiate heavyweight can be successful and among the "elite" when relying purely on strength and power where as the lower weights require you to be more refined, precise, and patient all the time just to be competitive. Synder wrestled Coon like a big man the first time around and lost because of it. The next two times he wrestled like a lightweight (which is something he does regularly and one of the reasons why he's so freaking good) and won because of it. This is why you will see a good 200lber whoop on good 250+lbers and not be surprised, where was you will almost never see a good 120lbs kid whoop on a good 135-140lber. Like you said big guys have to "relearn" technique to get to the upper most echelon. Lightweights have had to learn it much earlier and always have it just to compete.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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In that sense, a high school and collegiate heavyweight can be successful and among the "elite" when relying purely on strength and power where as the lower weights require you to be more refined, precise, and patient all the time just to be competitive. Synder wrestled Coon like a big man the first time around and lost because of it. The next two times he wrestled like a lightweight (which is something he does regularly and one of the reasons why he's so freaking good) and won because of it. This is why you will see a good 200lber whoop on good 250+lbers and not be surprised, where was you will almost never see a good 120lbs kid whoop on a good 135-140lber. Like you said big guys have to "relearn" technique to get to the upper most echelon. Lightweights have had to learn it much earlier and always have it just to compete.

100% correct

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In that sense, a high school and collegiate heavyweight can be successful and among the "elite" when relying purely on strength and power where as the lower weights require you to be more refined, precise, and patient all the time just to be competitive. Synder wrestled Coon like a big man the first time around and lost because of it. The next two times he wrestled like a lightweight (which is something he does regularly and one of the reasons why he's so freaking good) and won because of it. This is why you will see a good 200lber whoop on good 250+lbers and not be surprised, where was you will almost never see a good 120lbs kid whoop on a good 135-140lber. Like you said big guys have to "relearn" technique to get to the upper most echelon. Lightweights have had to learn it much earlier and always have it just to compete.

I was going to comment in depth but you know, you are just too stupid to waste the effort on. I don't like humans in general. Wrestling humans are a bit better. Wrestling fans who don't study the sport become normal humans. I don't like them. Edited by sgallan

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I was going to comment in depth but you know, you are just too stupid to waste the effort on. I don't like humans in general. Wrestling humans are a bit better. Wrestling fans who don't study the sport become normal humans. I don't like them.

Woohoo good one. I'm sure the feeling is mutual when it comes to humans in general.

 

Maybe it's you that is too stupid to come up with a strong enough rebuttal and you just counter that the person arguing with you is too stupid to understand your point of view as a deflection for your own stupidity.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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