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WillieBoy

Snyder vs Cael

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Yep, I started this one. Mainly for interest during down time.

 

Cael retired early and a lot of us were disappointed.

 

Looking at reality it was not that much of a surprise.

 

In Elementary School he wrote out his goal in life - Win an Olympic Gold Medal. He did so. Then... he retired and went into coaching.

 

John Smith and others kept on competing. Dan Gable got to the top twice and went into coaching. Everyone is different. I have no doubt Dan Gable would have won at least a few more World titles though I don't think he would have held up as long as John Smith did. Gable was too much the grinder and punished his body even as he punished his opponents.

 

Cael met his goal and moved on. The comeback was at a weight he took - in my view for one reason only. His protege was at his preferred weight and he did not want to knock him off the team. I think he could have done so. Instead he goes up a weight and places Fifth. This was mainly due to a challenge he had with his team at Penn State. Sure pointed to what he might have done had he kept competing internationally - in a style he apparently did not really enjoy.

 

I'm sure refereeing had something to do with it. Watching what the Ref's allowed against him in the US was brutal. Everything but hitting him with coach's chairs. Internationally wasn't really any better as it felt like "get the American" was their motto.

 

So I sit back and enjoy watching him make a Gable/OSU style run at National Titles. Watch him get the kids performing on the mat like Champions. I think it is good for the sport on all fronts. Sure does give a measuring stick for every other program to compare success - just like OSU and Dan Gable did. Would it be better if we had 3-5 honest challengers for the title every year? Probably. But to do so a few coaches will have to seriously raise the level of their programs and quit being satisfied wrestling for third place.

 

Kyle Snyder is amazing on the mat. A good ambassador for the Sport and USA Wrestling. He and Jordan Burroughs are good for wrestling on all fronts. Hope they make the goals they have set whether they can beat Cael in fantasy matches or not.

The driving issue in Gable's time that stopped people from competing for a long time was financial.  The ridiculous "amateur" rules that applied to all sports at that time stopped you from making a living in any way related to your sport.  You could not have a paid assistant coaching position or even get paid for clinics ( although I think was ignored a lot).  It made it very difficult to continue for too many years after college.  By the time Smith had started in 87 those rules were loosening up and they were gone by the mid 90s.  

Edited by lu1979

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And let's not forget there is a common opponent between Cael and Snyder...Albert Saritov from Russia.  Cael didn't score a point on him and Snyder beat him 7-0.

Since you are good at history don't forget one other common opponent. Mr Gatsalov. Cael wrestled him better than Kyle. Case closed Cael is better:-)

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The driving issue in Gable's time that stopped people from competing for a long time was financial.  The ridiculous "amateur" rules that applied to all sports at that time stopped you from making a living in any way related to your sport.  You could not have a paid assistant coaching position or even get paid for clinics ( although I think was ignored a lot).  It made it very difficult to continue for too many years after college.  By the time Smith had started in 87 those rules were loosening up and they were gone by the mid 90s.

 

Exactly. It’s always been fashionable on this forum to act like gable was some sort of also ran amongst the greats because he won only twice. That totally misses the point. In that era you weren’t even allowed to make money coaching I don’t think. Six years is a pretty long vow of poverty when you’ve already won one gold. The expectation for everyone was one Olympic cycle in that era from what I can tell. Almost nobody went beyond that. The guy gable beat 22 to 0 in the 72 trials won in 73, And shortly after the Olympics gable crushed the Russian who won at 149.5 from 74 through 76. So it seems pretty likely that he could’ve won through 1976. Before anyone says he’ll us to Lee kemp, That’s up a weight against an all-time great and it looks like the match could’ve gone the other way from what I saw. JB lost to nick marable once, John smith to Gil Sanchez etc. Very few have ever put together back to back seasons as good as Gable did in 1971 and 1972.

 

Based on what lewboo says it sounds like he might have been our best guy through about 1992. Similarly, I think Cael might have been our best guy at 189 from 2001 to 2016, If he chose to be. Totally speculation of course. Does anyone have any insight into whether he still hits the mat against David Taylor? There would never be a dull moment in that match up!

 

I don’t think the comparison between Cael and Kyle Snyder is that far fetched. I think what the above poster meant to say was that he went down a weight for Varner. I remember at the start of his comeback he competed at 97 kg and he looked every bit big enough for it. I think in hindsight, with his heart only being half in it, he probably would’ve done a lot better there. Nothing “fun” about sucking 30 pounds to make weight at the age of 32 years old. I have no idea how hard he’s training or lifting but honestly if he still battling in the room and he wanted to bulk up to the weight he’d give him a battle imo (Kyle definitely wins due to youth and size and well being Kyle). . If he’s not lacing them up anymore it would be a blowout of course.

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 The expectation for everyone was one Olympic cycle in that era from what I can tell. Almost nobody went beyond that. 

Looking at Gable's 72 'teammates, Sanders and Wells had wrestled on the 68 team, and the Peterson bros wrestled in 76. So it wasn't unheard of.   

Edited by KTG119

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Based on what lewboo says it sounds like he might have been our best guy through about 1992. 

and no way was Gable going to be our guy in '92. 5 years shy of hip replacement? nah....even in '88....I think Nate Carr hurts Dan Gable at that point. 

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Exactly. It’s always been fashionable on this forum to act like gable was some sort of also ran amongst the greats because he won only twice. That totally misses the point. In that era you weren’t even allowed to make money coaching I don’t think. Six years is a pretty long vow of poverty when you’ve already won one gold. The expectation for everyone was one Olympic cycle in that era from what I can tell. Almost nobody went beyond that. The guy gable beat 22 to 0 in the 72 trials won in 73, And shortly after the Olympics gable crushed the Russian who won at 149.5 from 74 through 76. So it seems pretty likely that he could’ve won through 1976. Before anyone says he’ll us to Lee kemp, That’s up a weight against an all-time great and it looks like the match could’ve gone the other way from what I saw. JB lost to nick marable once, John smith to Gil Sanchez etc. Very few have ever put together back to back seasons as good as Gable did in 1971 and 1972.

I watched a Gable interview where Flo visited his home and asked who was the greatest wrestler he ever coached. His choice was Chris Campbell. This is a guy that made the Olympic team the year of the boycott, took 10 years off, came back after the layoff and won a WC medal at age 38. If the financial incentives and training support that exists for athletes today existed, he might have filled up that 10 year layoff with medals, do ya think? The part-time, short-window guys that won medals doing the soviet block years vastly over- achieved against full time pros from the Soviet bloc and other subsidized countries. Guys like Burroughs and Snyder are great, but I admire some of the old timers equally if not more. Financial sacrifice, absence of medical technology, racial prejudice, inadequate training and coaching resources- a bunch of obstacles.

 

 

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and no way was Gable going to be our guy in '92. 5 years shy of hip replacement? nah....even in '88....I think Nate Carr hurts Dan Gable at that point.

 

Difficult to see gable winning against Carr at that point I agree. I’m just going based on what Randy Lewis wrote... he wrote an article that shortly after he pinned the current Russian world champ budaev in 1991 Gable outscored him 44-3 in a workout. So it would seem that he’d be pretty competitive.

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Exactly. It’s always been fashionable on this forum to act like gable was some sort of also ran amongst the greats because he won only twice. That totally misses the point. In that era you weren’t even allowed to make money coaching I don’t think. Six years is a pretty long vow of poverty when you’ve already won one gold. The expectation for everyone was one Olympic cycle in that era from what I can tell. Almost nobody went beyond that. The guy gable beat 22 to 0 in the 72 trials won in 73, And shortly after the Olympics gable crushed the Russian who won at 149.5 from 74 through 76. So it seems pretty likely that he could’ve won through 1976. Before anyone says he’ll us to Lee kemp, That’s up a weight against an all-time great and it looks like the match could’ve gone the other way from what I saw. JB lost to nick marable once, John smith to Gil Sanchez etc. Very few have ever put together back to back seasons as good as Gable did in 1971 and 1972.

 

Based on what lewboo says it sounds like he might have been our best guy through about 1992. Similarly, I think Cael might have been our best guy at 189 from 2001 to 2016, If he chose to be. Totally speculation of course. Does anyone have any insight into whether he still hits the mat against David Taylor? There would never be a dull moment in that match up!

 

I don’t think the comparison between Cael and Kyle Snyder is that far fetched. I think what the above poster meant to say was that he went down a weight for Varner. I remember at the start of his comeback he competed at 97 kg and he looked every bit big enough for it. I think in hindsight, with his heart only being half in it, he probably would’ve done a lot better there. Nothing “fun” about sucking 30 pounds to make weight at the age of 32 years old. I have no idea how hard he’s training or lifting but honestly if he still battling in the room and he wanted to bulk up to the weight he’d give him a battle imo (Kyle definitely wins due to youth and size and well being Kyle). . If he’s not lacing them up anymore it would be a blowout of course.

Bottom line in I think Cael could have beaten Snyder here and there. Varner did it. And just remember Sigman who knocked off Tervel, Varner and Cael were doing live wrestle offs leading up to the 2011 worlds. They were all three splitting with each other with Cael getting the best of all of them at 185! A bulked up Cael 205 beat Varner every time so why not Snyder? Cael was big enough for 211. Someone needs to ask Varner who was tougher? I know politically he would have to say the right thing and not give us his true opinion.

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Bottom line in I think Cael could have beaten Snyder here and there. Varner did it. And just remember Sigman who knocked off Tervel, Varner and Cael were doing live wrestle offs leading up to the 2011 worlds. They were all three splitting with each other with Cael getting the best of all of them at 185! A bulked up Cael 205 beat Varner every time so why not Snyder? Cael was big enough for 211. Someone needs to ask Varner who was tougher? I know politically he would have to say the right thing and not give us his true opinion.

Carl came back and took 5th at 184lbs losing to Saritov 1/0, 3/0. The Professor didn't score a point in that lopsided loss. It could have been the only time Carl was shutout ( not sure and not looking it up).

 

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Edited by cjc007

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Carl came back and took 5th at 184lbs losing to Saritov 1/0, 3/0. The Professor didn't score a point in that lopsided loss. It could have been the only time Carl was shutout ( not sure and not looking it up).

 

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But in his early 30s cutting to 184 was hard. He never lost to Varner when he weighed 210. He started losing some of the 2 minute goes with Varner in 2011 when he cut 25 lbs. They have archives at PSU of Sigman 260lbs, Varner 215lbs and Cael 185lbs doing live matches. Cael won most of them at 185lbs. If Varner is not there we would have seen Cael at 211. I think he would have beat Varner hence giving him a shot at Snyder even a bit past his prime. I would have loved to have seen a CAel vs Yazdani match! 

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Does Cael still scrap live? If so, does anyone know how competitive he is with the likes of Taylor, Varner, Nickal, etc. Might just be sparring at this point, but I'd like to see him full out against some of the guys in his room. Anyone have any inside info?

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He wrestles mostly with Taylor trying to get him ready. But just sparring. Nothing all out like in 2011 and 2012. He is old now. Weighs about 212 but very fit. Taylor could not hang with him until last year. 

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