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Comparing dynasties


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#1 Peso

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 04:22 PM

There are clearly 3 programs, Oklahoma State, Iowa and Penn State which have separated themselves from the field.  I humbly suggest that Oklahoma, Iowa State, Minnesota and Ohio State, which all have multiple team titles themselves, qualify as our 2nd group.  I began wrestling in Oklahoma just after the Oklahoma State decades of dominance.  I have been lucky enough to have spoken to some of the Oklahoma greats about how dominant OSU was back in their incredible decades of dominance.  Like it or not, that was in a time when you could hold a man down flat on his stomach with a heel trapped forever and collect multiple points for riding.  (you could still get 2 rt points when I began)  The rules were changed to neutralize the Pokes early on in our sport.  They had 28 titles by the time I wrestled there in the 70's, and I would love it if some of you are able to remember those teams, just before my time.  I first followed the Kellers, Fuji, Arneson, Steve Randall, and every OSU team since.   I watched all of Coach Gable's teams.  I thought they were best when JRob was his assistant, but either way, they are the gold standard of what I've seen in 47 years of following the sport.  In my opinion what Cael is doing is on par with those teams from the mid-80's.  Brands, Steiners, Alger, Banachs, Lewis.  I admired what Iowa did, but getting style points was getting old by the time we began incorporating scrambling back in the 90's.  When Cael was at Iowa State, I felt he immediately had the whole team in better position and hand fighting skills, but it seemed like they had less offense than the OSU/Iowa guys did back then.  The marriage of Cael and Penn State has been magical.  They are one of my favorite teams to watch.  The Lions have had their share of superstar teams and individuals the last decade.  We are truly lucky to get to witness this.  I know some are sick of this topic, but any comments comparing these 3 great dynasties would interest me at least.    

 

 


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#2 gowrestle

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 11:49 PM

Accurate post. Unfortunately the fact that only 3 teams are in the discussion and only a few are in the “second group” is troubling for our sport. Statistically it is much easier winning an NCAA title in wrestling than football, basketball, and baseball. Those sports have more teams and many of those programs are fully funded. In reality, when PSU wins the title, they are only competing agains a few teams.

I think the rule changes have been excellent but we still only attract die hard wrestling fans. Not sure where wrestling will be in 10 years from now especially when you consider the declining numbers in high school.

College athletics has evolved into a money enterprise. Programs exist if they can generate revenue and or publicity. Wrestling does neither.
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#3 KTG119

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 12:00 AM

does Ohio St have multiple team titles?



#4 oldcougar

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 12:07 AM

When I started wrestling, Yojiro Uetake was the greatest wrestler in the world.  50 years later I gotta include him in my top 3 of all time. (Feel free to speculate who the other 2 are.)

 

Who couldn't be impressed with Okie State at that time, or Iowa a couple of decades later.  Both inspired programs.  I'm truly over the top about Penn State now because they are so much fun to watch.  Guys like Jason Nolf and Bo Nickal win style points for their creativity.  I guess today's style of wrestling is just more spectator friendly because of improvements in technique and coaching.  I can remember sounding/feeling like an old fogie because I always claimed that wrestlers from my time (read Okie State/Lehigh/Oklahoma/etc.) were every bit as good as those then currently wrestling.  

I no longer make that claim.  Wrestling is the best it's ever been.  Period.  Thank goodness I'm still around to watch it.


Edited by oldcougar, 29 May 2018 - 12:10 AM.

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#5 silver-medal

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 02:18 AM

does Ohio St have multiple team titles?

No.  In fact prior to the arrival of Tom Ryan, Ohio State's program was a testament to underachievement.  Hellickson had some bright moments but also a lot of poor teams.  

 

Iowa had some great teams but when it comes to wrestling with skill and style, there has never been anything quite like PSU.


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#6 paboom

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 04:32 AM

I can only comment on Iowa in the 80's and 90's vs PSU of today and the void in between the two programs (Minnesota and OSU).  tOSU was the under achiever similar to PSU under Fritz and Sunderland.

 

Something I've been thinking about a lot is was it harder under Gable when most wrestlers were 3 sport athletes in HS and there were twice the number of D1 schools that produced quality AA's and even national champions from programs that haven't existed now for over 20 years (LSU, Clemson, etc).  It's always fascinating to me to look at the brackets from the 70's, 80's and even into the 90's to see how much parity there was from an AA and national champion perspective than now.

 

Just from a quick glance at 1979 up to 150lbs, you see programs with national champions and AA's like Syracuse, Cal State Bakersfield, California, PA, LSU, Kentucky, Slippery Rock, F&M, BYU, Portland, Luther, Arizona (not ASU), and Toledo.

 

But you still see the Iowa, OSU, Minn, Mizz, ASU, NC State, North Carolina, Illinois, Oregon State, Lehigh, WVU, Oklahoma, and Wisconsin. 

 

I counted 29 AA's from different schools up to 150.  Were there even 29 AA's from different schools this year counting all 10 weights?

 

Or is it easier for Sanderson with so many athletes D1 ready out of HS, half the teams and all the talent only going to the top programs. 

 

There are far more guys going for 4 titles and 4 AA's now than before.

 

It's more of an arms race now and money is the key.


Edited by paboom, 29 May 2018 - 04:49 AM.

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#7 jammen

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 05:41 AM

I take it this topic is only about the individual tournament at the end of the year where a team champion is decided?  Some may think that there is more to wrestling than just those three days.

For instance, Minny had an 18 year dual streak without a loss versus Penn State.  Minny has 9 National Dual Championships during it's knock-out days.  Here is a comparison with PSU:

...........MN...PSU
1998) ..1..... 3
1999) ..2.... dnp
2000) ..2... .dnp
2001) ..1.... dnp
2002) ..1... dne
2003) ..5... dne
2004) ..7... dnp
2005) ..3... dnp
2006).. 1... dne
2007) ..1... dne
2008) ..4... 6
2009) ..6... dnp
2010) ..4.. .dnp
2011) ..4.. .dne
2012) ..1.. .dne
2013) ..1.. .dne
2014) ..1... dne
2015) dnp. dne

 

Of course, this was back when Penn State didn't have any good wrestlers;  Kerry McCoy, Cary Kolat, Sanshiro Abe, Ken Chertow, Jim Martin, Jeremy Hunter, Phil Davis, JaMarr Billman, Glenn Pritzlaff, Jeff Prescott, Troy Sunderland, John & Russ Hughes, John Strittmatter, Haladay, Wittman, Truby, Sutter, Hart, Nelson, White, Voit, etc.


Edited by jammen, 29 May 2018 - 05:41 AM.

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#8 IronChef

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 06:00 AM

In the past 50 seasons:

9 different teams have won NCAA DI wrestling championships

21 different teams have won NCAA DI basketball championships

 

Overall:

12 teams have won wrestling championships (first held in 1928, not held 1943-45)

36 teams have won basketball championships (first held in 1939)

 

I don't know exactly what it means, but it's interesting. 


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#9 cbg

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 06:53 AM

Much more parity in the 70's & 80's than now.  You had so many more D1 programs and they also allowed the D2 guys to join the big dance.  Just a quick look at the top 10 teams at the 1985 NCAA Championships:

 

1.  Iowa

2.  Oklahoma

3.  Iowa State

4.  Oklahoma State

5.  Michigan

6.  Arizona State

7.  Penn State

8.  Tennessee

9.  Lehigh

10. Bloomsburg  

 

You also had All-Americans from the following programs that have been eliminated:

Utah State, LSU, Tennessee (National Champ), Shippensburg, Indiana State, Illinois State, Eastern Illinois, Montclair State, Cal Poly, Temple (National Champ), Weber State

 

Most all of the small PA universities would have one or two guys each season that had the ability to AA if they had a good tournament.  Now it's simply the rich getting richer.  


Edited by cbg, 29 May 2018 - 06:54 AM.


#10 paboom

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 07:22 AM

Looked it up completely.  In 1979 there were AA's from 42 schools.  In 2018...29 schools.

 

Grand Valley

Miami Ohio

Augustana

SIU Edwardsville

UCLA

Springfield

Marquette

Syracuse

Cal State Bakersfield

California, PA

LSU

Kentucky

Slippery Rock

BYU

Portland

Luther

Arizona (not ASU)

Toledo

Eastern Illinois

 

Here are some schools that still have D1 wrestling and had AA's that would be very tough today:

F&M

Clarion

Bloomsburg

Navy

Michigan State...had to include that one


Edited by paboom, 29 May 2018 - 07:24 AM.

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#11 paboom

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 07:29 AM


 

Most all of the small PA universities would have one or two guys each season that had the ability to AA if they had a good tournament.  Now it's simply the rich getting richer. 

 

Would love to see the 14 Passhe schools drop to 10.  Divide them into two super schools (PSU size) each with 4 satellites.  Dump a lot of money in the beginning to boost their football programs to profitability so they can dump a ton of money into two D1 wrestling programs.

 

Name them University of Southern Pennsylvania and University of Central Pennsylvania.



#12 lu1979

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 08:34 AM

I can only comment on Iowa in the 80's and 90's vs PSU of today and the void in between the two programs (Minnesota and OSU).  tOSU was the under achiever similar to PSU under Fritz and Sunderland.

 

Something I've been thinking about a lot is was it harder under Gable when most wrestlers were 3 sport athletes in HS and there were twice the number of D1 schools that produced quality AA's and even national champions from programs that haven't existed now for over 20 years (LSU, Clemson, etc).  It's always fascinating to me to look at the brackets from the 70's, 80's and even into the 90's to see how much parity there was from an AA and national champion perspective than now.

 

Just from a quick glance at 1979 up to 150lbs, you see programs with national champions and AA's like Syracuse, Cal State Bakersfield, California, PA, LSU, Kentucky, Slippery Rock, F&M, BYU, Portland, Luther, Arizona (not ASU), and Toledo.

 

But you still see the Iowa, OSU, Minn, Mizz, ASU, NC State, North Carolina, Illinois, Oregon State, Lehigh, WVU, Oklahoma, and Wisconsin. 

 

I counted 29 AA's from different schools up to 150.  Were there even 29 AA's from different schools this year counting all 10 weights?

 

Or is it easier for Sanderson with so many athletes D1 ready out of HS, half the teams and all the talent only going to the top programs. 

 

There are far more guys going for 4 titles and 4 AA's now than before.

 

It's more of an arms race now and money is the key.

There were AAs from 30 different schools in 2018.  7 schools had National Champions.



#13 KTG119

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 09:38 AM

Much more parity in the 70's & 80's than now.  You had so many more D1 programs and they also allowed the D2 guys to join the big dance.  Just a quick look at the top 10 teams at the 1985 NCAA Championships:

 

1.  Iowa

2.  Oklahoma

3.  Iowa State

4.  Oklahoma State

5.  Michigan

6.  Arizona State

7.  Penn State

8.  Tennessee

9.  Lehigh

10. Bloomsburg  

 

You also had All-Americans from the following programs that have been eliminated:

Utah State, LSU, Tennessee (National Champ), Shippensburg, Indiana State, Illinois State, Eastern Illinois, Montclair State, Cal Poly, Temple (National Champ), Weber State

 

Most all of the small PA universities would have one or two guys each season that had the ability to AA if they had a good tournament.  Now it's simply the rich getting richer.  

not sure that your top 10 shows parity from that era what it shows me is the 'big 4' from back then placing 1-4. and parity in the 80s? Iowa won 9 in a row and either Ok St, Ok, or Iowa St was runner-up every one of those years.   



#14 KTG119

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 10:07 AM

also my math may be off did this pretty quickly but Iowa won by an average of about 34 points during their 9 year run. Penn St has won by about 17 on average for their 7 titles.



#15 Peso

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 12:06 PM

Pennsylvania is comparable to Russia.  I believe there was a time in the 70's when there were 6 Pennsylvania colleges ranked in the top 10 in DI.  Now, someone has centralized the talent and even outside talent to boot, so it's kinda reverse Soviet Union Style.



#16 BigTenFanboy

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 03:31 PM

also my math may be off did this pretty quickly but Iowa won by an average of about 34 points during their 9 year run. Penn St has won by about 17 on average for their 7 titles.


This may be true, but I'm willing to argue that the 2nd place teams that PSU finished in front of often times were a lot stronger than that of the ones that Iowa finished in front of. Furthermore with more programs and strong wrestlers representing them, the talent was spread out across multiple teams thus making it easier for Iowa to accumulate larger leads in the team score.

#17 KTG119

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 10:45 PM

This may be true, but I'm willing to argue that the 2nd place teams that PSU finished in front of often times were a lot stronger than that of the ones that Iowa finished in front of. Furthermore with more programs and strong wrestlers representing them, the talent was spread out across multiple teams thus making it easier for Iowa to accumulate larger leads in the team score.

wasn't arguing Iowa > than Penn St with this, was debating the thought cbg presented that there was more parity in the 80s. Iowa's dominance, and the fact that it was the same 3 other teams usually in the top 4 with them, makes me think not so much. 



#18 NJWC

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:13 AM

wasn't arguing Iowa > than Penn St with this, was debating the thought cbg presented that there was more parity in the 80s. Iowa's dominance, and the fact that it was the same 3 other teams usually in the top 4 with them, makes me think not so much.


He sniffed out what MIGHT have been anything less than adulation for PSU, so he had to correct you.
The PSU fanboy can’t stand for anything less than hero worship.
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#19 Fletcher

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:26 AM

I can only comment on Iowa in the 80's and 90's vs PSU of today and the void in between the two programs (Minnesota and OSU).  tOSU was the under achiever similar to PSU under Fritz and Sunderland.

 

Something I've been thinking about a lot is was it harder under Gable when most wrestlers were 3 sport athletes in HS and there were twice the number of D1 schools that produced quality AA's and even national champions from programs that haven't existed now for over 20 years (LSU, Clemson, etc).  It's always fascinating to me to look at the brackets from the 70's, 80's and even into the 90's to see how much parity there was from an AA and national champion perspective than now.

 

Just from a quick glance at 1979 up to 150lbs, you see programs with national champions and AA's like Syracuse, Cal State Bakersfield, California, PA, LSU, Kentucky, Slippery Rock, F&M, BYU, Portland, Luther, Arizona (not ASU), and Toledo.

 

But you still see the Iowa, OSU, Minn, Mizz, ASU, NC State, North Carolina, Illinois, Oregon State, Lehigh, WVU, Oklahoma, and Wisconsin. 

 

I counted 29 AA's from different schools up to 150.  Were there even 29 AA's from different schools this year counting all 10 weights?

 

Or is it easier for Sanderson with so many athletes D1 ready out of HS, half the teams and all the talent only going to the top programs. 

 

There are far more guys going for 4 titles and 4 AA's now than before.

 

It's more of an arms race now and money is the key.

I would argue that it was easier for Iowa to win team titles back then. Talent was spread out nationally, so they didn't need to accumulate as much.

The top-tier guys who in the old days may have gone to Syracuse, Notre Dame, or some other school that was not competitive in the team race are now mostly going to one of four teams. This means Cael may get the #1 guy at a weight, but still has to worry about the #2 guy going to OSU, tOSU, or Iowa.



#20 Fletcher

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:34 AM

In the past 50 seasons:

9 different teams have won NCAA DI wrestling championships

21 different teams have won NCAA DI basketball championships

 

Overall:

12 teams have won wrestling championships (first held in 1928, not held 1943-45)

36 teams have won basketball championships (first held in 1939)

 

I don't know exactly what it means, but it's interesting. 

Good point. Because the team race usually isn't competitive, I ignore it and focus on the individual brackets. Last year was the first time in a while that we had an interesting team race.

Just imagine if we had multiple teams in the hunt every year and it went beyond the big four.






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