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Comparing dynasties


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#21 paboom

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:56 AM

I would argue that it was easier for Iowa to win team titles back then. Talent was spread out nationally, so they didn't need to accumulate as much.
The top-tier guys who in the old days may have gone to Syracuse, Notre Dame, or some other school that was not competitive in the team race are now mostly going to one of four teams. This means Cael may get the #1 guy at a weight, but still has to worry about the #2 guy going to OSU, tOSU, or Iowa.

You may be right. It is obvious that the talent was spread out much more than now.

But at the same time it can work against you. When a guy from Syracuse or LSU is winning nationals, it automatically knocks a good Iowa wrestler down a peg.

The same applies when a BYU or Grand Valley guy takes 3rd-5th. It has the potential to do the same.

Plus you still had the traditional programs churning out champions and AA's same as today.

There is no doubt that PSU's main competitors (3 programs) are stacked compared to the past but it's only 3 programs. I hate to say it but there will likely never be a 5th program that will challenge for a championship in the near future.

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#22 BigTenFanboy

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:19 AM

wasn't arguing Iowa > than Penn St with this, was debating the thought cbg presented that there was more parity in the 80s. Iowa's dominance, and the fact that it was the same 3 other teams usually in the top 4 with them, makes me think not so much. 

 

Nor was i arguing that PSU > Iowa. It was commentary on the landscape of NCAA Wrestling.

 

He sniffed out what MIGHT have been anything less than adulation for PSU, so he had to correct you.
The PSU fanboy can’t stand for anything less than hero worship.

 

Funny considering I adamantly sided with Suriano in his departure of PSU.

I have pretty actively supported Rutgers wrestling and even called them the sleeping giant in NCAA similar to what was PSU and tOSU several years ago, but I guess I'm just a blind PSU fan.

I have known Scott Goodale since his days as Head Coach at Jackson Memorial and have had lunch with him on a few occasions.

FYI, NJ Wrestling is embarrassed by you.

I have stated on these boards on several occasions that I don't think that Mark Hall is a "Once in a generation" type talent. but yea I just blindly follow and love all things PSU.

I've stated on these boards many times when David Taylor acted out during 2017 it was piss poor behavior. but yea 'm a blind PSU fan.

Since losing to Dake that the Southern Scuffle, I have predicted Dake beating Taylor EVERY SINGLE TIME. I have always stated that I was rooting for Taylor but predicting Dake. but yea I must be blinded by all things PSU.

 

So your "sniffing" out what MIGHT have been anything less than adulation for PSU doesn't hold a drop of water.

But since this was just ment to praise PSU. Please tell us your opinion of the landscape of NCAA Wrestling then vs now. Tell me is it easier to win a team title when you have another superteam to battle against? or is it easier to win a team title when all the other teams have the talent spread out across the field. Surely a "successful, selfmade" business man like yourself would know the answer.



#23 Mpchillin

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:23 AM

I would argue that it was easier for Iowa to win team titles back then. Talent was spread out nationally, so they didn't need to accumulate as much.
The top-tier guys who in the old days may have gone to Syracuse, Notre Dame, or some other school that was not competitive in the team race are now mostly going to one of four teams. This means Cael may get the #1 guy at a weight, but still has to worry about the #2 guy going to OSU, tOSU, or Iowa.


This may be true but Iowa has the top 7 scoring teams of all-time, so not only did they win but they won in dominating fashion.

#24 KTG119

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:58 AM

Nor was i arguing that PSU > Iowa. It was commentary on the landscape of NCAA Wrestling.

 

 

Funny considering I adamantly sided with Suriano in his departure of PSU.

I have pretty actively supported Rutgers wrestling and even called them the sleeping giant in NCAA similar to what was PSU and tOSU several years ago, but I guess I'm just a blind PSU fan.

I have known Scott Goodale since his days as Head Coach at Jackson Memorial and have had lunch with him on a few occasions.

FYI, NJ Wrestling is embarrassed by you.

I have stated on these boards on several occasions that I don't think that Mark Hall is a "Once in a generation" type talent. but yea I just blindly follow and love all things PSU.

I've stated on these boards many times when David Taylor acted out during 2017 it was piss poor behavior. but yea 'm a blind PSU fan.

Since losing to Dake that the Southern Scuffle, I have predicted Dake beating Taylor EVERY SINGLE TIME. I have always stated that I was rooting for Taylor but predicting Dake. but yea I must be blinded by all things PSU.

 

So your "sniffing" out what MIGHT have been anything less than adulation for PSU doesn't hold a drop of water.

But since this was just ment to praise PSU. Please tell us your opinion of the landscape of NCAA Wrestling then vs now. Tell me is it easier to win a team title when you have another superteam to battle against? or is it easier to win a team title when all the other teams have the talent spread out across the field. Surely a "successful, selfmade" business man like yourself would know the answer.

there definitely were other super teams during Iowa's run. Oklahoma had 3 champs, a runner-up, a 3rd, and a 4th placer one year and placed 3rd in team race. Same year Iowa St placed 2nd with 8 AAs, 7 of whom were in top 4. It wasn't just Iowa was loaded and the field was watered down across the board. It was more like Iowa was incredible and then the other big programs Iowa St, Ok, and Ok St were light years ahead of everyone else but a step or more behind Iowa. so to your point, I'm also not arguing Iowa v Penn St here, but commenting on the landscape then.....pretty top heavy, much like today. 


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#25 NJWC

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 03:31 AM

Nor was i arguing that PSU > Iowa. It was commentary on the landscape of NCAA Wrestling.


Funny considering I adamantly sided with Suriano in his departure of PSU.
I have pretty actively supported Rutgers wrestling and even called them the sleeping giant in NCAA similar to what was PSU and tOSU several years ago, but I guess I'm just a blind PSU fan.
I have known Scott Goodale since his days as Head Coach at Jackson Memorial and have had lunch with him on a few occasions.
FYI, NJ Wrestling is embarrassed by you.
I have stated on these boards on several occasions that I don't think that Mark Hall is a "Once in a generation" type talent. but yea I just blindly follow and love all things PSU.
I've stated on these boards many times when David Taylor acted out during 2017 it was piss poor behavior. but yea 'm a blind PSU fan.
Since losing to Dake that the Southern Scuffle, I have predicted Dake beating Taylor EVERY SINGLE TIME. I have always stated that I was rooting for Taylor but predicting Dake. but yea I must be blinded by all things PSU.

So your "sniffing" out what MIGHT have been anything less than adulation for PSU doesn't hold a drop of water.
But since this was just ment to praise PSU. Please tell us your opinion of the landscape of NCAA Wrestling then vs now. Tell me is it easier to win a team title when you have another superteam to battle against? or is it easier to win a team title when all the other teams have the talent spread out across the field. Surely a "successful, selfmade" business man like yourself would know the answer.


Lol, you’re the best. So easy.

#26 TobusRex

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 03:49 AM

I'm with Peso. Wrestled in the same general area about 5 years or so after he did. The multiple riding time point thing was gone, but 1 riding time point was still around.

 

I enjoy reading the brackets, looking at past results and comparing teams. OSU was the best for a long time, but there were other teams occasionally popping up and winning even in OSU's heyday. Iowa was pretty good already, but when Gable got there most of the best wrestlers wanted to go there as well. Same as PSU now with Cael. But Cael's teams seem more creative than Gable's teams did. Gable's guys were more grindy, in general. Would've been fun to see Gable's best team vs Cael's best team. Somebody needs to invent a time machine!


Edited by TobusRex, 30 May 2018 - 03:49 AM.

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#27 paboom

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 04:25 AM

Still love looking at 1988.  PA with 6 national champions and only 1 was at PSU and none were Big 10.

 

Cuvo-East Stroudsburg

Martin-PSU

Santoro-Pitt

Turner-NC State

Koll-UNC

Haselrig-Pitt-Johnsontown


Edited by paboom, 30 May 2018 - 04:25 AM.

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#28 KTG119

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 04:45 AM

Still love looking at 1988.  PA with 6 national champions and only 1 was at PSU and none were Big 10.

 

Cuvo-East Stroudsburg

Martin-PSU

Santoro-Pitt

Turner-NC State

Koll-UNC

Haselrig-Pitt-Johnsontown

and then 1989 wasn't too shabby either with Cuvo (beat another Pa guy Wyland in finals), O'Day, Santoro, and Haselrig as champs.  



#29 gutfirst

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 05:09 AM

Still love looking at 1988.  PA with 6 national champions and only 1 was at PSU and none were Big 10.

 

Cuvo-East Stroudsburg

Martin-PSU

Santoro-Pitt

Turner-NC State

Koll-UNC

Haselrig-Pitt-Johnsontown

3 from district 11.



#30 patmilkovich

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 07:28 AM

I would argue that it was easier for Iowa to win team titles back then. Talent was spread out nationally, so they didn't need to accumulate as much.

The top-tier guys who in the old days may have gone to Syracuse, Notre Dame, or some other school that was not competitive in the team race are now mostly going to one of four teams. This means Cael may get the #1 guy at a weight, but still has to worry about the #2 guy going to OSU, tOSU, or Iowa.

 

FWIW, I would submit that it was harder to win the team title back then.  There were approx. 180 DI teams during Gable's reign.  DII NCAA champions, runners-up + wildcards (1972 Gary Barton-Clarion St. 134 w/c), DIII Champions (1977 Ken Mallory- Montclair St.134) were included in the DI championships.  More variables with more competitors. One may argue that there is more  concentration of good wrestlers at a few schools and that's probably true, but only one guy can compete. the others have to watch.  If those #2,3, and 4's had options to compete elsewhere with different coaching, workout partners, etc., they have the chance of becoming a spoiler, e.g., Suriano.  If he stays at PSU, maybe he's in the stands watching. Even tho he didn't win it, he took out some very good kids.  

As one who was fortunate enough to compete/coach against one of the greatest wrestling dynasties ever, I can assure you that the Gable coached Iowa teams beat some very, very good competition.  It didn't seem that way because they were so superior in so many ways.  From the first year that Gable was hired as asst. coach at Iowa, his impact was obvious.  His coaching style, intensity, influence, and the rules of the time allowed him to make it look like there was little competition.  They were relentless, physical, in-your-face, and constantly pressuring you.  Factor in the 8 minute matches, their 3 acre wrestling mat, the rules of the time, and a rabid fan base and all the ingredients were there for domination.  I witnessed many excellent wrestlers get way ahead on points with Gable's kids, only to not just get beat, but eventually get pummeled or pinned because they were just too damn tired to keep fighting.  They were hard to hold down, they were hard to escape, and if you did, they were back in your face, pressuring, pushing, pulling, banging, and wearing you down. How he used the rules to his advantage was masterful in and of itself. With all due respect, Cael's a great coach and great guy, but I would still put my money on a Gable coached team v PSU or any other team now for that matter.


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#31 paboom

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 09:20 AM

3 from district 11.

2 from mostly rural district 6 (Hidlay territory) and 1 from completely rural district 4 (Retherford territory).

That was when D11 was the power area. It's now the WPIAL. Lee, Nolf, and Joseph.

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#32 Peso

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 04:44 PM

I take it this topic is only about the individual tournament at the end of the year where a team champion is decided?  Some may think that there is more to wrestling than just those three days.

For instance, Minny had an 18 year dual streak without a loss versus Penn State.  Minny has 9 National Dual Championships during it's knock-out days.  Here is a comparison with PSU:

...........MN...PSU
1998) ..1..... 3
1999) ..2.... dnp
2000) ..2... .dnp
2001) ..1.... dnp
2002) ..1... dne
2003) ..5... dne
2004) ..7... dnp
2005) ..3... dnp
2006).. 1... dne
2007) ..1... dne
2008) ..4... 6
2009) ..6... dnp
2010) ..4.. .dnp
2011) ..4.. .dne
2012) ..1.. .dne
2013) ..1.. .dne
2014) ..1... dne
2015) dnp. dne

 

Of course, this was back when Penn State didn't have any good wrestlers;  Kerry McCoy, Cary Kolat, Sanshiro Abe, Ken Chertow, Jim Martin, Jeremy Hunter, Phil Davis, JaMarr Billman, Glenn Pritzlaff, Jeff Prescott, Troy Sunderland, John & Russ Hughes, John Strittmatter, Haladay, Wittman, Truby, Sutter, Hart, Nelson, White, Voit, etc.

 

Great point!  Forever we had the big 4 in college wrestling.  OSU, ISU, IU, OU.  I believe Minnesota was the only addition to that group for 50 years, but Cael + Pennsylvania = mo-betta.  I believe JRob was a bigger influence in Iowa City than most realize.  Then of course, his first thought, much less first vote, hall of fame career in Minnesota is a lifetime accomplishment that probably passes or equals the great Harold Nichols from Iowa State, or Tommy Evans from OU...



#33 Peso

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 05:22 PM

FWIW, I would submit that it was harder to win the team title back then.  There were approx. 180 DI teams during Gable's reign.  DII NCAA champions, runners-up + wildcards (1972 Gary Barton-Clarion St. 134 w/c), DIII Champions (1977 Ken Mallory- Montclair St.134) were included in the DI championships.  More variables with more competitors. One may argue that there is more  concentration of good wrestlers at a few schools and that's probably true, but only one guy can compete. the others have to watch.  If those #2,3, and 4's had options to compete elsewhere with different coaching, workout partners, etc., they have the chance of becoming a spoiler, e.g., Suriano.  If he stays at PSU, maybe he's in the stands watching. Even tho he didn't win it, he took out some very good kids.  

As one who was fortunate enough to compete/coach against one of the greatest wrestling dynasties ever, I can assure you that the Gable coached Iowa teams beat some very, very good competition.  It didn't seem that way because they were so superior in so many ways.  From the first year that Gable was hired as asst. coach at Iowa, his impact was obvious.  His coaching style, intensity, influence, and the rules of the time allowed him to make it look like there was little competition.  They were relentless, physical, in-your-face, and constantly pressuring you.  Factor in the 8 minute matches, their 3 acre wrestling mat, the rules of the time, and a rabid fan base and all the ingredients were there for domination.  I witnessed many excellent wrestlers get way ahead on points with Gable's kids, only to not just get beat, but eventually get pummeled or pinned because they were just too damn tired to keep fighting.  They were hard to hold down, they were hard to escape, and if you did, they were back in your face, pressuring, pushing, pulling, banging, and wearing you down. How he used the rules to his advantage was masterful in and of itself. With all due respect, Cael's a great coach and great guy, but I would still put my money on a Gable coached team v PSU or any other team now for that matter.

 

Great points Pat!  I think Cael is getting close, but I agree, not quite the king of the mat yet.  These Penn St Teams, I would say the same thing.  The fans now who didn't see those hawkeye teams, seem to not be able to believe it.  Different era, different rules, but they changed the sport on the world level.  I put Taylor, Zain, Nolf, Ruth, Nickal on the mat with anyone, but if you didn't get to see the Brands, and Steiners, and Randy Lewis, and Royce Alger, and The Banachs it's probably difficult to understand this movie has already played out, with at least two other dynasties.  If this goes on for another 10 years or so, I will undoubtedly put Cael at the top, but not yet.  I would pay a months salary to watch Bo wrestle Rico or Zain vs Tom, or Nolf vs Lincoln Mac!

 

PS, the year after you beat Billy Martin in the finals, I was his teammate at OSU.  Was Jimmy Carr in your weight one of those years too?


Edited by Peso, 30 May 2018 - 07:44 PM.

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#34 KTG119

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 10:32 PM

Great point!  Forever we had the big 4 in college wrestling.  OSU, ISU, IU, OU.  I believe Minnesota was the only addition to that group for 50 years, 

don't forget Arizona State's title in the late 80s. Pretty radical for them to win it back then. Much respect to Bobby Douglas.  


Edited by KTG119, 30 May 2018 - 10:43 PM.


#35 TBar1977

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 12:44 AM

Due to improvements in diet and training athletes are better today than they were when Gable started at Iowa. Any cursory check of objective human athletic accomplishment shows this. Pretty much all measurable achievements have improved.

Think track and field, but other sports also. High jump, long jump, sprints, distance running, etc. Skaters are faster. Figure skaters do more turns in the air now. Gymnasts do the same. It is like night and day how much athletes have improved.

Wrestlers are no different.

Edited by TBar1977, 31 May 2018 - 12:45 AM.

Penn State - NCAA Champions 7 of the last 8 Years


#36 patmilkovich

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 12:49 AM

Peso,

Jimmy was in the bottom bracket in '75...lost to Reinwand (WI) 5-4 in the quarters.  The domination of Gable/Iowa is very unique.  He had some guys that weren't All-Stars out of hs and developed them into monsters.  Kinseth was a pinning machine.  Davis was tough. Cysewski doesn't get much credit, but he was not a pushover and got better every year.  The Trizzino's...Holm, Yagla, Campbell, DeAnna, Heffernan, the Zalesky's....and the list goes on and on.  The thing is, Iowa didn't just win, they just pounded you. It was like guys playing Tiger at his zenith, they were beat before they ever set foot on the tee...It was intimidating to wrestle an Iowa guy.   It didn't matter how far ahead you might be in the first period, by the third (if you lasted that long) you were exhausted.  At the Big Ten's and NCAA's.. you could always tell when an Iowa guy stuck someone....the place erupted (and they pinned a lot).  And you could always tell when an Iowa kid got beat...the place erupted!  What great time for wresting and for fans. 


Edited by patmilkovich, 31 May 2018 - 04:57 AM.

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#37 NJWC

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 02:55 AM

Due to improvements in diet and training athletes are better today than they were when Gable started at Iowa. Any cursory check of objective human athletic accomplishment shows this. Pretty much all measurable achievements have improved.

Think track and field, but other sports also. High jump, long jump, sprints, distance running, etc. Skaters are faster. Figure skaters do more turns in the air now. Gymnasts do the same. It is like night and day how much athletes have improved.

Wrestlers are no different.

 

Lol, drives ya crazy, doesn't it?  How dare someone suggest PSU isn't the best in any way.  Heck, suggest ANYTHING about PSU in ANY way isn't the best.  You simply can't handle it, can you?

I can just imagine you grinding your teeth at the deviation from your company line.  



#38 KTG119

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 03:46 AM

Due to improvements in diet and training athletes are better today than they were when Gable started at Iowa. Any cursory check of objective human athletic accomplishment shows this. Pretty much all measurable achievements have improved.

Think track and field, but other sports also. High jump, long jump, sprints, distance running, etc. Skaters are faster. Figure skaters do more turns in the air now. Gymnasts do the same. It is like night and day how much athletes have improved.

Wrestlers are no different.

well that is one way to look at it, and one factor that makes comparing wrestlers/teams from different eras great for a discussion topic, but ultimately impossible to prove. another way to look at it is to play with the idea of the best from a past era having those same benefits (nutrition, training, etc) and imagine them lining up on equal footing with the guys of today.

 

but back to your point and assuming past guys step straight out of the time machine with only the skill set and training from their era to compete against today's guys.....how far back do you go and say, yep, anything before this period of time and the guys would get killed by today's stars? Would Kolat/mid 90s be competitive? Tom Brands/early 90s? John Smith/late 80s? Randy Lewis/early 80s? 

 

or maybe one future day (10 years? 20 years?) you'll have to admit that Taylor, Zain, Nolf, Ruth, etc are products of an outdated era and that the current crop of guys would crush them.    



#39 KTG119

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 03:52 AM

another thought on this, and I was guilty of this for a long time....personal bias and perspective....I got into the sport in the early 80s so moving forward always felt like my early heroes would have been able to hang....but those guys from the 70s? No way, that was old school

 

except Gable of course, cause you know he was still running through everyone in the Iowa room like a bat out of hell. 


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#40 TBar1977

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 05:10 AM

KTG, you mention things like a)there are different ways of looking at things and b) there is no way of proving it ...etc. I agree with both sentiments. Things are just different in too many ways to know.

My sense is that with fewer schools combined with more film of all the top recruits the talent tends to just be more concentrated today. Which dynasty is better, or greater, or accomplished more? Does it matter?
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Penn State - NCAA Champions 7 of the last 8 Years





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